Canon 5D Mark IV

[SiSS]

Crop Factor rumors continue from the favorite rumorsite

CROP FACTOR CHANGE FOR 4K ON CANON EOS 5D MARK IV INCLUDED IN COMING UPDATE & MORE

We have been sent more information about the upcoming C-Log update to the EOS 5D Mark IV, while this comes from a new source, it’s pretty detailed.

Canon EOS 5D Mark IV C-Log Update:

All video output will still be 8-bit.
Sampling for DCI 4K will be increased to a 5632 x 2970 pixel sensor area resulting in a 1.27x Crop factor.
Sampling for UHD will be from a 5472 x 3078 pixel sensor area resulting in a 1.29x Crop factor.

Both modes are accurately down-sampled to their final resolutions.
Existing frame rates will remain the same.
The current 1:1 4K sampling mode will remain an option for situations benefiting from the 1.78x Crop factor.

There will also be new full-sensor 3K modes added including 60fps and HDR 24fps.
Both will use a line-alternating sampling method, so quality will be inferior to the improved 4K format (but better than the existing FullHD 1080p format.)
It is unclear whether the file resolution in the final firmware will be the full 3360 x 1890 format or down-sampled to 3072 x 1728.

FullHD 1080p will also use this 3K full-sensor mode with down-sampling for a noticeable improvement in perceived resolution.
FullHD 1080p will also receive a modest frame rate boost to 72/75fps.

The EOS 5D Mark IV will gain the XF-AFC file format at 120Mbps (4:2:0) and 200Mbps (4:2:2). Both formats should require low enough data rates to accommodate UHS-I U3 type SD Cards.

Reports relating to a possible service job for the 5D Mark IV are the result of the heat sinks on current units not performing well in some environments when used with the newer firmware. This is because of the increased processing load from the enlarged video sampling area. Newer units will ship with an improved heat sink while existing 5D Mark IV units can be retrofitted. Pricing is unconfirmed for that servicing.
The newer firmware will still work in non-serviced cameras, but this may result in premature temperature warnings.

More to come…

[user0597]

It's actually something you'd want. Doesn't sound like Canon of recent.

[limey]

I have been shooting on both the A7sii and FS5 for just over a year now. I also picked up the 5D4 to replace my 5D3 when it came out, so speaking from personal experience I can confidently say the 5D4 is a huge improvement on its predecessor and it has many advantages over the Sony cameras many people love. The 4k mjpeg codec is heavy but I have been very pleased with the range it gives in post both for colour and for cropping/resizing as the image is consistently clean and beautiful. It goes without saying, it does not have the perks of raw recording and I definitely miss the other ML functions. Despite that, the 5D4 is tack sharp in 1080p 24/30/60 and 4K modes, and yes the 720 is slightly softer (as I expected). The camera also records 120fps in 720p with a surprisingly high bit rate (150mbps if memory serves me right) that hardly shows any artefacts (if any) and prevents the image from from falling apart in post. Looking at images from the two cameras side by side leads me to believe that the Sony is also recording 120fps at 720p but upscaling it internally to give the impression that it's reaching higher specs than it's competitors. It's also worth noting that the Sony's mentioned here both shoot UHD 4k and not true 4k, which means they're shooting 3840x2160 instead of 496x2160 like the Canon. Now, the biggest downfall to Canon's flagship DSLR is that the 4k recording suffers heavily from rolling shutter (as does the A7sii) and the 5D switches to a 1.74x crop mode to do it, which for many shooters is a disappointment because we've been spoiled by the shallow dof of full frame video for the last few years. However, that being said 1.74x crop is very close to Super 35 and I personally haven't found this to be a negative but a positive because a good dp/videographer will know which lenses to use to achieve the desired results and I actually appreciate gaining that extra reach out of all of my lenses. The only other downfall of the 5D4 is that the only way to achieve an s-log look is with Eoshd's reverse engineered c-log picture profile which I haven't really put through all it's paces but on first glance looks very promising. Apart from those few minor weaknesses, the 5D4 doesn't look like it at first but it is a hell of a camera and a welcomed upgrade to anyone who didn't jump on the Sony bandwagon.

A side note is that for those who prefer an easier workflow, the 5D4 blows the Sony's out of the water from the on set accessories right through post production. To elaborate on that, most Sony lens options are disappointing and have electronic zooms or focus rings which make follow focus rings unusable as the rings change their marks depending on how fast or slowly you move them. So most people will pick up a Metabones or Fotodiox adapter to fit EF or other third party lenses which means you lose AF functionality and depending on the lens, 1 out of 20 times the body doesn't read the lens properly so you need to power down, remove the lens, power back up and this becomes very annoying when you're on a high stress shoot (not to mention the tiny A7sii batteries which barely last around 30-40mins at a time so you need to bring a bunch or have a charging station handy). Also for those of you who haven't yet had the opportunity to shoot on a Sony, every time you format a the card, the file system re-starts the next shot at 0001.mp4, 0002.mp4 all over again, which means you need to batch rename your clips before editing or you'll have a hell of a time reconnecting a project in post if you move it from drive to drive because you run the risk of having duplicate file names in the same bin. The only way the Sony sensors retain their highlights (which I have to say, they do very, very, very well!) is by shooting in s-log 3 which means the base iso jumps up to 1600 and 3200 on the A7sii and the fs5 respectively. This higher iso necessitates the use of ND filters both indoors and outdoors depending on your lighting scenario and ND filters from brand to brand have different hues than the internal variable ND in the FS5 so when you get to the colouring stage of post production, not only is there already a big learning curve for slog3 colouring but if you mix cameras or use ND filters on your lenses, the blacks can vary in hue making colouring even more difficult. Meanwhile the Canon sensor retains all iso options and is clean for video well up until 6400 which I don't think I've ever really shot past on a Sony and been happy with the results, so for low light performance the Canon's are on par (for my needs, at least). The 5D4 also outputs natural colours and skin tones which many users will find familiar and easy to correction/grade, keeping the post prod workflow simple.

All this to say, I'm excited and eager to see if ML ever comes to the 5D4, the team here has done a wonderful job and the feature I miss the most is the magic zoom! Please guys, give us some updates on a nightly!

This sums up my feelings exactly regarding both the Sony a7r2 and a7sii vs now my extensive experience with the 5d4.

The canon is absolutely tack sharp and the tracking is game changing for me. I shot a recent project at 1080p 60fps and was blown away.

My only gripe is the codec for post processing it's just too large for premiere and my Mac Pro chokes on it. However, it's actually pretty decent. Again sharpness is impressive.

The dynamic range, noise levels, and sharpness vs the 5d3 are so much better. From a stills standpoint it's a worthy upgrade.

Eager to see what the new firmware does for the 5d4.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JADURCA]

Canon Announces Clog for Mark IV!

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/see-legendary/canon-log

[hjfilmspeed]

100$ ... And I have to send my camera out!!! No resolution updates ..... Seriously canon....
Not only did a simple hoax ruin there announcement but as a 5div owner I have to pay for this? I hope all new 5Divs cost 100 bucks more cuz that is just not cool.

No thanks I'll just use RAW from ML

[myown]

I prefer to donate 100$ for a Mark IV for A1ex :-)

[AOK]

Canon Announces Clog for Mark IV!

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/see-legendary/canon-log

And no wifi GUI improvements :/

[hjfilmspeed]

100$ not including shipping I assume.
I am just so disappointed. If this was more then just a flat profile upgrade then it would be worth it but seriously.... I can't justify that.

[mothaibaphoto]

"be aware that canon log requires manual exposure operation"

[hjfilmspeed]

Maybe I will pay for the upgrade so that I can do a side by side:
5diii 1920x1080 ML 14 bit lossless vs 5div cine style vs 5div c - log
And then most likely come to the conclusion that the upgrade was pointless.

[eduperez]

Canon Announces Clog for Mark IV!

https://www.usa.canon.com/internet/portal/us/home/explore/see-legendary/canon-log

Expect the hordes asking to be done (for free, obviously) using ML...

[hjfilmspeed]

I'd pay for ML not .... C- Log.
All I have to say is thank you ML because I would have abandoned Canon for video a long time ago.

[myown]

Maybe I will pay for the upgrade so that I can do a side by side:
5diii 1920x1080 ML 14 bit lossless vs 5div cine style vs 5div c - log
And then most likely come to the conclusion that the upgrade was pointless.

Did you allready try the "C-Log" from EOSHD?

http://www.eoshd.com/2016/09/now-available-eoshd-picture-profiles-brings-c-log-canon-dslrs-including-1d-x-mark-ii-5d-mark-iv/

It's way cheaper :-)

[hjfilmspeed]

Hahahaha @myown! I'll have to try that!

[mattcraigthomas]

This is also worth a look at, if, like me, you're not especially keen on Canon's...implementation.

After researching, I concluded that James Miller's profile is probably better, and comes with LUTs I prefer the look of, although I have to admit I've yet to actually use it.

DELUTS Canon DSLR LOG & LOOKS
https://sellfy.com/p/ul1t/

Using the Atomos promo link will make it a little cheaper:
https://sellfy.com/p/oTvW/-at0mo5d31ut5/?utm_source=atomos.com

[reddeercity]

It more then you think , it just not a lut/picture style it actually a 10bit log curve then compressed to 8bit(which is in all eos camera ) before pic.style is applied , read this post Reverse Engineering Picture Styles    .
The reason you need to send it in is they have to calibrate the sensor for log (because not all sensor product the same DR, I would think there same amplifies registers to adjust to max the D.R.) , 
You have you use Min.400 ISO and up and in manual mode only plus what really cool is the evf lut preset to view log in rec709 . Basically it's the old 1dc with a  higher crop factor .
Watch the video in the link it explains everything , if I had a 5d4 I wouldn't hesitate for a second to update to log from canon.
and Oh yea you can even get uncompressed log 1080p from the HDMI , thumbs up 

[hjfilmspeed]

I agree, the more I read, I learn its not just a look or picture style that is being applied. There is more involved.
And no doubt it will be solid and reliable which all my Canon bodies have been. I will say that Canon cameras are the most reliable pro cams that I have ever used. Because of this forum, I now know how much of a challenge that is.
And yes you could buy another battery powered device to rec the uncompressed feed.... or just use ML on a 5diii 2012 camera and rec uncompressed everything straight to the card in 1920 x 1080. 
Im going to go ahead and speculate that 5Diii RAW uncompressed or 14 bit lossless is still the winner here as far as color and grading.

Wow ... I guess that rumor really got my hopes up ha ha
Dont get me wrong I absolutely love it as a still camera. Best body I have ever used for Photo especially for weddings. But when it comes to video I would trade touch screen wifi gps video AF dual pixel yadda yadda for better crop 4k or more pro codec hands down.

[patrick@3rdeyemedia.us]

Without CFast I feel it's pretty doomed for higher resolution in Raw. Of course they don't like not to benefit from ML super work...

I am quite happy Canon did not switch to CFast cards.  I use teh Samsung Extreme Pro 95 Mbs 256GB carsds in my Canon 5D Mark IV but the also fit in my Sony FDR-AX100 and my laptop Dell 5510 has a very fast SD card reader builtin.  So I love not having to carry an external card reader.  The Mjpeg format already has very low compression if any so I see no reason to shoot to RAW creating an even larger file than it creates now.  The image quality is already as perfect as I have ever seen coming unaltered from the camera.  for most work there is no need to color grade if you used good glass an lighting in the first place. 

[patrick@3rdeyemedia.us]

Maybe I will pay for the upgrade so that I can do a side by side:
5diii 1920x1080 ML 14 bit lossless vs 5div cine style vs 5div c - log
And then most likely come to the conclusion that the upgrade was pointless.

I have both cameras and the Canon 5D Mark IV is light years better than the Mark III.  Things like WIFI, GPS, Timecode, focus following while in Live View, Touch screen display which can be used to pull focus.  Being able to remotely pull focus from my touchscreen laptop in 4K while recording in true 4K.  Just absolutely amazing features.  The upgrade is only pointless if you can't figure out a way to use all these new features.  For me just having Timecode has made syncing audio to my Zoom F4 without the need for Red giants Plural eyes has saved me time and money.

Plus a a photo camera the 5D IV is an absolute beast.  It is so fast and accurate.  Let me stop now before people start thinking I work for Canon.

[hjfilmspeed]

 @patrick@3rdeyemedia.us
You have misunderstood me. I was not saying upgrading to 5Div, I was saying upgrading the 5Div to c-log.
I agree, there are a lot of improvements to the 5d iv especially for photo. I know, I own both Cameras and I know how to use them. But I tell you what, I would sacrifice the dual pixel and wifi gps functions for a professional 10bit codec. For some rediculous reason canon is promoting post color grading with c-log on 8bit codecs. I'm sorry this is just silly at this point. And the rolling shutter of the 4k plus the crop is really not good.
What they should have done was:
1 Super 35mm 1.3x crop 4k 10bit  422
2 And full frame 1920 10bit 422 (not h.264 420 8bit)
3 less rolling shutter.
Personally I would trade video autofocus, wifi, touchscreen and GPS for the features mentioned above.
I actually emailed Canon nicely mentioning my concerns and they told me I should take a look at the 11,000 c300 ii
I didn't​ tell them this but I said to myself, no thanks I'll just use 5diii with ML RAW if I want to color grade.
Im not saying the 5Div is bad. All I am saying is, personality​ it let me down. This is not the same 5D that spearheaded the DSLR video revolution.

[mothaibaphoto]

I actually emailed Canon nicely mentioning my concerns and they told me I should take a look at the 11,000 c300 ii

ROFL 
There is also some compromise for 5,000: 1Dx MKII - 1.3x crop 4k 60 FPS, less rolling shutter.

[patrick@3rdeyemedia.us]

@patrick@3rdeyemedia.us
You have misunderstood me. I was not saying upgrading to 5Div, I was saying upgrading the 5Div to c-log.
I agree, there are a lot of improvements to the 5d iv especially for photo. I know, I own both Cameras and I know how to use them. But I tell you what, I would sacrifice the dual pixel and wifi gps functions for a professional 10bit codec. For some rediculous reason canon is promoting post color grading with c-log on 8bit codecs. I'm sorry this is just silly at this point. And the rolling shutter of the 4k plus the crop is really not good.
What they should have done was:
1 Super 35mm 1.3x crop 4k 10bit  422
2 And full frame 1920 10bit 422 (not h.264 420 8bit)
3 less rolling shutter.
Personally I would trade video autofocus, wifi, touchscreen and GPS for the features mentioned above.
I actually emailed Canon nicely mentioning my concerns and they told me I should take a look at the 11,000 c300 ii
I didn't​ tell them this but I said to myself, no thanks I'll just use 5diii with ML RAW if I want to color grade.
Im not saying the 5Div is bad. All I am saying is, personality​ it let me down. This is not the same 5D that spearheaded the DSLR video revolution.

I agree with you on 2 and 3.  2 doesn't really affect me much because I always shoot at 4K and if required downsize to 1920 which I believe still give me 422 color sampling.   I have not worked with 10bit video so I don'tr know what I am missing.  I also don't color grade most of my work so also don't have a need for C-log.  The only time I would need something like that is if am shooting with both my Sony FDR-AX100 and Canon 5D4 and need to match colors, which at this point I also seldom do.  Isn't the Sensor in the Canon 5D4 already much bigger than a Super 35 sensor since it has to accommodate 30MP photography? 
Well in any case I hear you and everyone has their own thoughts, but for me.  I am quite ecstatic with the camera.  Upgrading from a Canon 5D Mark II was a huge step up and I will use it for the next 5 - 7 years.  I just don't get that many requests for people actually hiring me to shoot in 4K.  My trick is shooting in 4K and delivering a 1080P product which looks great.  Which I can easily do with this camera.  For my personal stuff (not getting paid for) the 4k stuff is great for friends and family events. 
When I look back at it all I think Canon was the first to bring video to a DSLR and if I remember many photographers thought it was a stupid idea.  But, now it is the norm.  But, If I where to do paid 4K work on a regular basis I would absolutely just go get a Black Magic mini URSA.  The downside is I just couldn't imaging traveling Internationally with it which is why I purchased the 5D4.

[dfort]

Not to get too far off topic but looking at the Netflix Production and Post-Production Requirements v2.1 it looks like the 5D Mark IV can only be used as a "Secondary Camera" because it doesn't meet their specifications:

• Equal to or greater than 4096 x 2160
• Minimum of 16-bit Linear or 10-bit Log processing
• Bitrate of at least 240 Mbps (at 23.98/24 fps) recording
• Recording format must be set to either RAW or Log color space

Some other 4K cameras that don't meet these specifications include the somewhat affordable Sony FS-5, JVC GY-LS300 and the not so affordable Arri Alexa. That's right, unless you can get a hold of an Arri 65 that has "true" 4K (greater than 4096 x 2160) sensor.

The most affordable camera that would fit the specifications without requiring an external recorder seems to be the new Panasonic GH5. Like the 5D Mark IV, that camera also uses a less than edit friendly codec. Some people may look down on the micro four thirds sensor but considering the crop factor when the 5D Mark IV shoots 4K (1.7x vs. 2.0x mft) there isn't much of a difference as far as depth of field goes.

I'm not trying to start a flame war here, just reporting what I found out. I'm prepping for a documentary and would like to get a better chance at being accepted at the various streaming services but it looks like these Internet broadcast standards are evolving much faster than I ever expected.

And hold on, I was at NAB and this is what is coming in time for the 2020 Tokyo Olympics from NHK:

SUPER HI-VISION (8K) 22.2 multichannel sound system

There were a few 8K cameras on display though I didn't see the one from Canon that they showed at Photokina 2016.

[chris_overseas]

I took a look at the 1.0.4 firmware and managed to find a few stubs. Not much, but it's a start.

https://bitbucket.org/chris_miller/ml-fork/commits/035db3446e9092bc5b3be89af9d4b378690ad7cc

[noipego]

nice, thx for looking into this Chris!