Author Topic: 50D Raw video  (Read 856061 times)

1%

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2625 on: August 09, 2013, 04:33:21 PM »
Main thing: the debayering on the stick. I was trying like hell to remove those on 6D.

pulsar124

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2626 on: August 09, 2013, 04:50:45 PM »
Can anyone please explain to me why there is even a need for demosaicing for the raw video? Especially when it is a non-crop (full sensor) recording? Demosaicing is only needed at the sensor pixel level, but with full sensor video, you are using multiple sensor pixels per one video pixel - so how come it is still mosaiced? Is it just to save on bandwidth and space (so instead of 14*3 bits per video pixel, you only store 14 bits per video pixel, sacrificing color resolution for the framerate and space)? And how is it accomplished - is the sensor data first demosaiced, and then a new (lower resolution) fake mosaic is created by ML (or perhaps Canon)? Or perhaps the raw sensor data is being interpolated/binned, separately for each channel (R,G,B), from sensor resolution to video resolution?

Thanks!

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2627 on: August 09, 2013, 05:14:07 PM »
I think you have to de-bayer CR2 as well and ACR does it.

pulsar124

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2628 on: August 09, 2013, 05:38:22 PM »
I think you have to de-bayer CR2 as well and ACR does it.

Where CR2 comes from? This is just for photos, not for video.

riccardocovino

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2629 on: August 09, 2013, 06:00:58 PM »
Main thing: the debayering on the stick. I was trying like hell to remove those on 6D.

Yes, that's the most evident point!
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artiswar

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2630 on: August 09, 2013, 06:14:59 PM »
How clunky is RawTherapee in processing shots? The most I would be doing is creating a flat profile and rendering to tiff or dpx.

pulsar124

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2631 on: August 09, 2013, 07:44:21 PM »
Still waiting for my fast card, but decided to play a bit with the slower (400x) Transcend I have. I installed the most recent TL build.

I am baffled with the zoom (crop) of the video. I don't see explicit settings for that. Say, I want to use the whole sensor (non-cropped video), 640x480 pixels. How should I do that? When I use grey-scale preview hack, my video becomes cropped by a factor of 2 or more. When I press the LiveView zoom button, it zooms in even further (does it affect the recording as well?), but pressing Zoom out does nothing - it stays zoomed in.

How can I do non-cropped video?

pulsar124

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2632 on: August 09, 2013, 08:15:08 PM »
Okay, I think I am starting to get it. I have to choose resolutions like 1500x1000 to use the whole sensor, without cropping - right?

But why can't I set 1920 pixels width, even when I use very low FPS (like 10)? When I try to do that, ML tells me "only 1580 is possible in this video mode"?

Andy600

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2633 on: August 09, 2013, 08:35:44 PM »
Okay, I think I am starting to get it. I have to choose resolutions like 1500x1000 to use the whole sensor, without cropping - right?

But why can't I set 1920 pixels width, even when I use very low FPS (like 10)? When I try to do that, ML tells me "only 1580 is possible in this video mode"?

You need to be in crop mode to get 1920. Press the zoom button once then go back to the raw module menu. You'll see you can then select up to 2000 px ;)
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pulsar124

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2634 on: August 09, 2013, 08:51:09 PM »
You need to be in crop mode to get 1920. Press the zoom button once then go back to the raw module menu. You'll see you can then select up to 2000 px ;)

Thanks! And why is that? With non-RAW video, I can use 1920x1080 resolution. Is it because you hard-wired a certain binning factor - something like 1 video pixel for every 3 sensor pixels, in each dimension? Is it adjustable? I thought cameras like 5D3 can do 1920 in non-crop modes?

Given that Bayer cell has a size of 2x2 pixels, wouldn't the binning factor of two make more sense (should eliminate moire)?

Molinsky

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2635 on: August 09, 2013, 08:56:48 PM »
Since @pulsar124 is making those questions, I have a question too about the limit of available resolutions in the 50D.

Why you can select the width up to only 2000px in crop mode (it's not even 2048)? It's because of the sensor or something? I mean, I could use a 3:1 ratio with large width, no?

Andy600

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2636 on: August 09, 2013, 10:14:12 PM »
Thanks! And why is that? With non-RAW video, I can use 1920x1080 resolution. Is it because you hard-wired a certain binning factor - something like 1 video pixel for every 3 sensor pixels, in each dimension? Is it adjustable? I thought cameras like 5D3 can do 1920 in non-crop modes?

Given that Bayer cell has a size of 2x2 pixels, wouldn't the binning factor of two make more sense (should eliminate moire)?

H.264 is line skipping just the same as non-crop mode is with raw video then upscaled to 1080p. It's not resolving full 1080p. Crop mode records 1:1 pixels from a portion of the sensor. There is no inbetween capability. It's not adjustable.

re: Bayer pattern you'll need to address that to a1ex, g3gg0 etc. I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing and what these cameras are capable of. I'm not a dev btw ;)


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Just a general comment to anyone reading this. Before you ask questions please credit the developers of ML with some intelligence. You may have a bright idea but the chances are they have already been there, done that and bought the t-shirt. They are already pushing the cameras way beyond the limits of what Canon themselves envisaged.
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Molinsky

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2637 on: August 09, 2013, 10:29:56 PM »
Just a general comment to anyone reading this. Before you ask questions please credit the developers of ML with some intelligence. You may have a bright idea but the chances are they have already been there, done that and bought the t-shirt. They are already pushing the cameras way beyond the limits of what Canon themselves envisaged.

I don't know if that was indirectly addressed to me because of my question, but my doubt was to anyone that can answer me.

I don't have anything to say to the devs, but "thank you". Man, yesterday I made a video with my 50D with an old CF card (get to 30mb/s write speed) and I managed to achieve 1152 x 540 some times. Blowed my mind, I can't wait my 64gb 1000x Transcend to arrive.

But I made a question about the 2000px of width because:

1-
H.264 is line skipping just the same as non-crop mode is with raw video then upscaled to 1080p. It's not resolving full 1080p. Crop mode records 1:1 pixels from a portion of the sensor. There is no inbetween capability. It's not adjustable.

And the sensor in 50D have 4752 pixels of width.

2-
There is a comment in the code that says:

Quote
resolution should be multiple of 64x32 or 128x16
this way, we get frame size multiple of 512, so there's no write speed penalty

So, I want to understand the 2000px width, not questioning the reason. Just seams that 2048px would make more sense and I'm not finding an answer in this 100+ pages topic.

edit: I just tried the crop mode. Two seconds on some great resolutions... and there is 2048px there. My bad. So I guess there is no need for answers, although I don't understand everybody writes "2000" instead of "2048".

pulsar124

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2638 on: August 09, 2013, 10:51:36 PM »
H.264 is line skipping just the same as non-crop mode is with raw video then upscaled to 1080p. It's not resolving full 1080p. Crop mode records 1:1 pixels from a portion of the sensor. There is no inbetween capability. It's not adjustable.

re: Bayer pattern you'll need to address that to a1ex, g3gg0 etc. I'm pretty sure they know what they are doing and what these cameras are capable of. I'm not a dev btw ;)


Thanks a bunch! I didn't realize 50D doesn't do true 1080p in h.264. And indeed, the 5D3 horizontal resolution is exactly 1920*3=5760 pixels (it shows the Canon's emphasis on video in the newest DSLRs).

So is this 3x3 pixels binning (from sensor -> to non-cropped video) built into the Canon's hardware or firmware, and ML is simply piggybacking it?

And is it indeed skipping, or binning? Binning would make much more sense - you reduce noise that way.

Still not clear what happens to mosaicing: Bayer cells are 2x2 pixels, and the video goes in 3x3 binning. Are there any demosaicing/mosaicing happening during RAWvideo recording, or only pure interpolation, separately in R,G,B? I think the latter would be more beneficial - fewer artifacts, and less cpu/memory intensive.

Andy600

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2639 on: August 10, 2013, 10:20:15 AM »
Latest Tragic Lantern 2.0 build is up: https://bitbucket.org/andy600/tl50d/downloads

Includes @Pravdomil's new Auto Exposure module (photo mode only), Crazy Colors which helps setting WB, Raw spot meter and a bunch of tweaks and fixes.

1% has also added code for the Dual ISO module :o but it's not working (yet) so I haven't included it in this build.

I would seriously recommend using Tragic Lantern on the 50D as it has much better shutter control in video mode.


As ever, this is developed for the 50D by 1% and includes all the latest Unified updates and fixes from a1ex, g3ggo and co. So thank them, not me ;)

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riccardocovino

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2640 on: August 10, 2013, 10:40:53 AM »
1% has also added code for the Dual ISO module :o but it's not working (yet) so I haven't included it in this build.

 :o :o :o

wasn't that impossible on 50d ?!
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Andy600

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2641 on: August 10, 2013, 11:41:45 AM »
:o :o :o

wasn't that impossible on 50d ?!


Apparently it was but a1ex is working on it for the 5d2 and if that works there is hope for the 50D
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rockfallfilms

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2642 on: August 10, 2013, 04:16:17 PM »
No, I don't think so. The debayering in Resolve really lets it down.

I shot some low light tests last night and processed everything in Raw Therapee (AMaZE demosaicing), output Jpeg and rendered in AE. The debayering and upscale is very good in RT and doesn't seem to have the flicker problems that ACR has.

These shots don't have any noise reduction. I only balanced and slightly sharpened, not even graded yet  :). It was actually a lot darker than it looks.

A few frame grabs (video later) http://imgbox.com/g/YDDntkAGA7



50D ISO 200-1600 F1.4-F4 (Tragic Lantern 2.0 latest build)

Nice images Andy, were they shot in crop mode? Look forward to the video.

oc_masta

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2643 on: August 10, 2013, 04:26:53 PM »
is the 50d raw video capability comparable to a hacked gh2?
I know on paper the 50d would be better, but if you guys had the choice to choose a camera for videography... GH2 or 50d right now, which would it be?

Torn between the 2 cameras, make the decision for me please.

Andy600

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2644 on: August 10, 2013, 04:30:36 PM »
Nice images Andy, were they shot in crop mode? Look forward to the video.

Thanks :)

I shot about 50/50 crop/non-crop. The first 5 are non-crop.

I'm editing the video atm.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

rockfallfilms

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2645 on: August 10, 2013, 04:37:06 PM »
is the 50d raw video capability comparable to a hacked gh2?
I know on paper the 50d would be better, but if you guys had the choice to choose a camera for filming video with... GH2 or 50d right now, which would it be and why?

Torn between the 2 cameras.

In my opinion the 50D image is much nice than the GH2, it's more organic and gives you more options in post. It's not nearly as sharp but that's I good thing as far as I'm concerned. I got fed up having to deal with the 8 bit codec and heavily compressed footage anymore so I recently sold my GH2 and will be shooting my next project on the 50D.

Just bare in mind that the 50D does suffer from moire/aliasing whereas the GH2 doesn't suffer from moire. With the right monitor on set, the moire of the 50D can be worked around.

It does depend on what you shoot aswell, for documentary work the GH2 would be better but for narrative I'd go 50D.

Andy600

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2646 on: August 10, 2013, 04:39:11 PM »
is the 50d raw video capability comparable to a hacked gh2?
I know on paper the 50d would be better, but if you guys had the choice to choose a camera for videography... GH2 or 50d right now, which would it be and why?

Torn between the 2 cameras.

Tough one but I'd have to say the GH2 for straight-up resolution, cost of media and post workflow. The 50D looks better when shooting raw of course and can handle more extreme grading but there is no on-board audio, moire and aliasing are an issue (especially compared to the GH2) and raw involves huge files. If you're prepared to do the extra work and be more careful what you shoot then the 50D is well worth it.

Personally...I'd want both ;)
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rockfallfilms

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2647 on: August 10, 2013, 04:43:25 PM »
Thanks :)

I shot about 50/50 crop/non-crop. The first 5 are non-crop.

I'm editing the video atm.

Is this one an anamorphic lens or did you just crop in post?

http://imgbox.com/aclQK8KF

It's a real shame that Raw Therapee doesn't output quicktimes.

Andy600

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2648 on: August 10, 2013, 04:53:19 PM »
Is this one an anamorphic lens or did you just crop in post?

http://imgbox.com/aclQK8KF

It's a real shame that Raw Therapee doesn't output quicktimes.

All shot on a 50mm, no anamorphic. I shot everything 16:9 but added the crop to hide a couple of framing mistakes ;D

I know what you mean about Raw Therapee  :(. There doesn't seem to be a single 'free' app without limitations. ACR flickers (ok, it's not free but I have Adobe Cloud), Resolve lite has dodgy debayering and even the paid apps have problems. Hopefully they will add some other output options to RT but I'm really just hoping Resolve 10 has better debayering.
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oc_masta

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Re: Raw video on 50d and 40d
« Reply #2649 on: August 10, 2013, 04:58:04 PM »
Thank you for the reply Andy600 and Rockfallfilms.
Would I be correct in thinking the 50d with the latest tragic lantern can do 1920x1080 for at least 1 minute of recording?