50D Raw video

Started by Andy600, May 22, 2013, 03:40:57 PM

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crash-film

hi,

i got my 50D now and i am a little bit disappointed.
first of all: it´s dark outside, so there´s nothing to shoot.

and i got horrible writing speeds!!
i have a komputerbay 32 GB x600 card and can barely top the data rate, that´s possible in the 550d.

to check if there´s something wrong with the komputerbay card i got me a lexar 16 GB x800.... and now:
average write speed   41 MB/s
average read speed  100 MB/s

with komputerbay:
average write speed   26 MB/s
average read speed    63 MB/s

using the W/R benchmark

i use todays build. tryed different aligning settings. btw.    if you set the sector sizes the same as the allocation sizes the cam dies.
i had to remove the battery, start the cam with another NON ML  card, restart it with an ML card.... and it worked again.
used all the "tricks" ( raw off, noise reduction, global draw off/on...)

but back to my problem. i expected specially with the lexar card a data rate of at least 50-60 MB/s

or is this impossible with such a card?

or am i the problem?

to me it seems, as if write speed/read speed = 1/2
i expected a 2/3 ratio. at least from the x800 card.
i have just a usb 2 card reader


someone any suggestions?

thanks!!

artiswar

So in a massive spanned clip today (interview) this happened. I didn't notice the buffer fill or anything strange.

What is it?



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

briwil

Quote from: crash-film on June 19, 2013, 03:06:01 AM
i use todays build. tryed different aligning settings. btw.    if you set the sector sizes the same as the allocation sizes the cam dies.

Have you tried a different build, like June 11th?

bzhwindtalker

Quote from: crash-film on June 19, 2013, 03:06:01 AM


and i got horrible writing speeds!!
i have a komputerbay 32 GB x600 card and can barely top the data rate, that´s possible in the 550d.


I had the 600x komputerbay and did not get more than 25mo/sec. Now I returned it for the 1000x and get speeds up to 65mo/sec, and i'm not sure this is limited by the card or the current build.
50D, Komputarbay 1000x 32gb, Tokina at-x 24-40, Centon 50f1.7, 55-250 IS II, zoom H1

savale

Quote from: briwil on June 19, 2013, 12:04:42 AM
Can anyone tell me, would a lens with Image stabilization help much?
And what is this stuttering effect on panning shots, is that a result of FPS override dropping frames, or something else?

Actually I really like the 18-55 IS or STM kitlens. On a wider angle it's easier to shoot handheld. The IS will help!

briwil

Quote from: savale on June 19, 2013, 08:29:54 AM
Actually I really like the 18-55 IS or STM kitlens. On a wider angle it's easier to shoot handheld. The IS will help!

Thank you!

robertgl

will a 1000x 32GB work with all resolutions?

LEVISDAVIS

Appears there are at least a couple of posts stating that the Komputerbay 32GB 1000X is producing high-MB/s recordings. You might try a search.

Here's a sample...

QuoteQuote from: alexcosy on June 15, 2013, 04:22:37 PM
Yes i'm on a 5D2, you think it has something to do with it?

I shot this morning 1880x800 2.35 @24p, and i can do it continuously.
Seems like 1728x972 16:9 is ok too continuously.

sould i send back and hope for a better one? i ve seen benchmarks up to 110MB/S but on 5D3, is it related?

Don't send it back. It is definitely to do with the upper limit that you can write on the 5DMKII. When you run the benchmark you will most likely get a faster speed write but when you record you will see anywhere between 59 - 68 - 70MB/s sometimes mine goes above 70MB/s (briefly but its more usual to see it around 63MB/s)

I have a Komputerbay 1000x 32GB

So what I am saying is that if you buy a faster one it is pointless because the 5DMKII will cap it by its bus limitation (unfortunately). The 5DMKIII has a higher limit and I don't know exactly what that is because I have no experience of them.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 04:45:24 PM by mageye »
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Levi S. Davis

LEVISDAVIS

Hey Crash-Film... Got a response to your card write-speed issue.

The math doesn't seem to add up when it comes time to how a card performs... Put a Komputerbay 64GB 1000x in a Canon 5DIII and experience 125MB/s write speeds. Place the same card in the 50D and experience approximately 70MB/s. The difference can be in the EXFAT format and the FAT32 format limitations. In addition to the card's read/write limitations, the camera also has it's read/write limitations. Thus, it's important to find the correct mate, if you will.

The reason why the math isn't really panning out is because the camera is writing data at the very edge of it's capabilities. And since it appears that your card is pushing the edge of it's capabilities, in addition to your camera, you may be dealing with what may be described as a double-negative recording process.

Try searching the ML forum and you might discover that the Lexar Professional 1000X and the Komputerbay 32GB 1000X, and the 64GB 1000X are the cards of choice. I can't write that for sure, of course. Myself, I've primarily been glued to the 50D Raw Recording forum and not so much the 5D II and 5D III. Anyway, the best value is probably 64GB 1000X from Komputerbay.... By the way Komputerbay has been quoted as stating, "We receive/sell/brand Lexar Professional's cards that didn't meet the highest, most stringent quality-control measures."

Aside from that bit of re-assurance in the quality of the Komputerbay, having originated from a high-end compact-flash card manufacturer, I guess we're discovering that the Lexar 800 compactflash card is more of an entry level UDMA 7 rather than a high-end UDMA 7.

You might consider turning off every feature not related to raw_record, and completely clear the screen of excess overlays, in addition, make sure you have all of your Canon menu settings for image & exposure set to disable. These are definite disrupters for maximizing raw_record.

Hang in there and keep up with the posts. See you around.

- Levi
Levi S. Davis

Viente

I wonder if there is anti aliaisng filter from other canon models which fits to 50D? Maybe from 7d or 60d? Does anybody knows?

Andy600

Quote from: Viente on June 19, 2013, 12:36:28 PM
I wonder if there is anti aliaisng filter from other canon models which fits to 50D? Maybe from 7d or 60d? Does anybody knows?

An 7D filter will probably fit but they are made specifically for 18mp sensors. We have a 15mp sensor in the 50d. It would do strange things to the image.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Viente

I think maybe some kind of petition will push Mosaic Engineering to develop AA filter for 50D?

crash-film

Quote from: LEVISDAVIS on June 19, 2013, 10:35:44 AM
Hey Crash-Film... Got a response to your card write-speed issue.

The math doesn't seem to add up when it comes time to how a card performs... Put a Komputerbay 64GB 1000x in a Canon 5DIII and experience 125MB/s write speeds. Place the same card in the 50D and experience approximately 70MB/s. The difference can be in the EXFAT format and the FAT32 format limitations. In addition to the card's read/write limitations, the camera also has it's read/write limitations. Thus, it's important to find the correct mate, if you will.

The reason why the math isn't really panning out is because the camera is writing data at the very edge of it's capabilities. And since it appears that your card is pushing the edge of it's capabilities, in addition to your camera, you may be dealing with what may be described as a double-negative recording process.

Try searching the ML forum and you might discover that the Lexar Professional 1000X and the Komputerbay 32GB 1000X, and the 64GB 1000X are the cards of choice. I can't write that for sure, of course. Myself, I've primarily been glued to the 50D Raw Recording forum and not so much the 5D II and 5D III. Anyway, the best value is probably 64GB 1000X from Komputerbay.... By the way Komputerbay has been quoted as stating, "We receive/sell/brand Lexar Professional's cards that didn't meet the highest, most stringent quality-control measures."

Aside from that bit of re-assurance in the quality of the Komputerbay, having originated from a high-end compact-flash card manufacturer, I guess we're discovering that the Lexar 800 compactflash card is more of an entry level UDMA 7 rather than a high-end UDMA 7.

You might consider turning off every feature not related to raw_record, and completely clear the screen of excess overlays, in addition, make sure you have all of your Canon menu settings for image & exposure set to disable. These are definite disrupters for maximizing raw_record.

Hang in there and keep up with the posts. See you around.

- Levi

thanks levi!

okay, i got 720p raw video.....with the x800 card its absolutely no problem.
that´s all i wanted since i could not get it with my 550D.
i can even get the 14.. x 5..  1:2.20 (it´s to hot, to grab the camera just for that...) resolution@23,9 fps and  the buffer is like <*.....> and idling.   just one step greater in vertical resolution and the buffer fills continuously up. so it´s the cards performance for shure.

i think card manufacturers gain their incredible x1000 speeds by creating a card intern raid. ( as in panasonics P2 cards are technically SD-Cards in a raid) also the used memory chips influence the memory bandwith with their inner structure.
so in a 32 GB card may be the doubled infrastructure of a 16 GB card. leading to a theoretically doubled performance.
and so on....
as far as i can remember CF cards where always the fastest cards because of their intern UDMA controller. maybe in some cards (komputerbay) there´s a controller with two "lanes" each with a memory interface that matches the 16GB modules. so in the 16 GB card there´s just one "lane" used. in the 32 GB card both of them are used. and in the 64 GB card a controler optimized for four 16 GB modules (or two 32 GB modules) is used. and this controler is also used in the 128 GB but organized in a way that´s good enough for marketing but technically not perfect. this explains the different performances of differently sized cards.

i know there´re no 16 GB modules and so on and memory is organized and transferred in bits.
but i hope i could explain my thoughts about this as plain as possible  ;)

so as long as there´s no card manufacturer, that gives exakt specs of it´s cards there will be always some gambling.

you must always hope that e.g. komputerbay understands the needs of it´s customers and doesn´t just follow the law of economy and raises the prices and lowers the production costs.... by changing to a cheaper controller or memory chips.

maybe a magic lantern raw performance guarantee and a nice sticker on the box would help. of course making the card 10% more expensive than the standard cards but encouraging the manufacturer to hold up performance.

and there´s a lot of marketing in those memory cards.
sony itself offers a SxS to SD card adapter. no problem recording on a cheap 32 GB class 10 card in a EX1. or F3.... if you want to ;)

not the fastest cards on the market will do the trick, but to find cards which match the memory interface ( or call it bandwidth limit) of the specific cam as close as possible should safe buffer and gain bandwith.

and i am pretty shure i am telling no news to the most of you...

i ordered a komputerbay 32 GB x1000. the lexar 16 GB goes back to the retailer. final step will be the lexar 32 GB x1000

would love to buy them all and cross check in my own camera. but, could get a little bit expensive.

we will see...

goldenchild9to5

Quote from: crash-film on June 19, 2013, 03:06:01 AM
hi,

i got my 50D now and i am a little bit disappointed.
first of all: it´s dark outside, so there´s nothing to shoot.

and i got horrible writing speeds!!
i have a komputerbay 32 GB x600 card and can barely top the data rate, that´s possible in the 550d.

to check if there´s something wrong with the komputerbay card i got me a lexar 16 GB x800.... and now:
average write speed   41 MB/s
average read speed  100 MB/s

with komputerbay:
average write speed   26 MB/s
average read speed    63 MB/s

using the W/R benchmark

i use todays build. tryed different aligning settings. btw.    if you set the sector sizes the same as the allocation sizes the cam dies.
i had to remove the battery, start the cam with another NON ML  card, restart it with an ML card.... and it worked again.
used all the "tricks" ( raw off, noise reduction, global draw off/on...)

but back to my problem. i expected specially with the lexar card a data rate of at least 50-60 MB/s

or is this impossible with such a card?

or am i the problem?

to me it seems, as if write speed/read speed = 1/2
i expected a 2/3 ratio. at least from the x800 card.
i have just a usb 2 card reader


someone any suggestions?

thanks!!

Return and get 1000X Komputer Bay..

rockfallfilms

Quote from: Viente on June 19, 2013, 02:05:37 PM
I think maybe some kind of petition will push Mosaic Engineering to develop AA filter for 50D?

I emailed them 2 weeks ago and haven't heard a thing. Perhaps if everyone does it then we may get a response.

briwil

Quote from: rockfallfilms on June 19, 2013, 07:07:42 PM
I emailed them 2 weeks ago and haven't heard a thing. Perhaps if everyone does it then we may get a response.

I just emailed them.

krummi

Has anybody been shooting charts with the 50D? I'd be interested in seeing how it compares to the 5D MKII and other RAW Canons(or the Sony FS series or similar 1080p camcorders)  in actual lines of resolution and stops of DR.

methodikalgee

Just tried the latest build from GregoryOfManhattan, so much more stable than the May28 build! Thank you so much! Will be out testing it some more today w/ the dog. On my Delkin 1000x card, I was getting 45-53mb/s, now it's up to 55-71mb/s. Buffer is being handled well, w/ only 5-7% idle.

One thing I noticed was that ExpSim seems like it's not working as well as before? When I change apertures, ExpSim doesn't seem to translate the extra stops of light...or maybe it's just me. I had to hit the DOF preview button to see what the actual exposure is going to look like.

Overall, really impressed at the progress of this build, and by the ML devs as a whole. Thank you thank you thank you so much.  ;D ;D

LEVISDAVIS

I'm thinking the 50D is in third, the 5D II in second, and the 5D III in first. Having downloaded footage from the 5D II it probably isn't that far off from the 5D III, in terms of resolution. However, the 5D III appears to offer far greater advancements in terms of pixel resolution and write speeds to the card. The 50D and the 5D II appear to have a similar generation of CMOS sensor. You'll probably find the two cameras are a perfect match for recording continuous raw using multiple cams.

...Having said all of that, remember that each camera features an ability to shoot 1:1. At that point, every camera records with a pixel to pixel perfectly sharp image. I suppose the quality of the 50D and 5D II are similar to the upcoming Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera when shooting in a 1:1 crop mode. However, the BMPC camera will have a much newer sensor and will feature better high-ISO noise performance. Then again, it's 12-bit and not 14-bit video. Technically it may be possible to apply noise reduction to the Canon 50D and 5D II and have the same low-noise performance based on the extra information.
Levi S. Davis

necronomfive

Quote from: LEVISDAVIS on June 19, 2013, 10:35:44 AM
Hey Crash-Film... Got a response to your card write-speed issue.

The math doesn't seem to add up when it comes time to how a card performs... Put a Komputerbay 64GB 1000x in a Canon 5DIII and experience 125MB/s write speeds. Place the same card in the 50D and experience approximately 70MB/s. The difference can be in the EXFAT format and the FAT32 format limitations.

The biggest limitation on the 5DMKII and 50D is not file system related, but the memory bandwidth of the internal RAM. If you benchmark the write speed of the 50D without LiveView activated, it easily surpasses 90 MB/s on my 1000x KomputerBay 32GB Card. Once you activate LiveView, sensor data gets written into SDRAM, and the Compact Flash DMA has to share the memory bandwidth with the sensor image DMA stream, dropping to about 67 - 70MB/s.

The 5DMKIII has a revised DIGIC with faster SDRAM memory access, which is the reason why it can still write >90MB/s with Live View on.

necronomfive

Quote from: LEVISDAVIS on June 19, 2013, 08:26:02 PM
...Having said all of that, remember that each camera features an ability to shoot 1:1. At that point, every camera records with a pixel to pixel perfectly sharp image. I suppose the quality of the 50D and 5D II are similar to the upcoming Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera when shooting in a 1:1 crop mode. However, the BMPC camera will have a much newer sensor and will feature better high-ISO noise performance. Then again, it's 12-bit and not 14-bit video. Technically it may be possible to apply noise reduction to the Canon 50D and 5D II and have the same low-noise performance based on the extra information.

What I really don't like about the BMPC is that you are stuck with a 3x sensor crop. It severely limits your choices. On a 50D, you can choose between shooting wider at a slightly reduced resolution, or 1:1 with a 3.975 sensor crop. I also really like the fact that on the 50D, you are not limited to 1.78:1 aspect ratio.

It also needs to be seen if Black Magic will actually manage to get full 12-bit raw recording working on SD Cards. Currently, the BMPC "only" shoots 10-bit ProRes 4:2:2.

From a price point, I think you either go with a 50D, and shoot good quality RAW at a VERY LOW price, or get a BMCC and have real 2.5K resolution for an affordable price. Getting an BMPC suddenly doesn't make much sense to me anymore.

crash-film

The biggest limitation on the 5DMKII and 50D is not file system related, but the memory bandwidth of the internal RAM. If you benchmark the write speed of the 50D without LiveView activated, it easily surpasses 90 MB/s on my 1000x KomputerBay 32GB Card. Once you activate LiveView, sensor data gets written into SDRAM, and the Compact Flash DMA has to share the memory bandwidth with the sensor image DMA stream, dropping to about 67 - 70MB/s.

The 5DMKIII has a revised DIGIC with faster SDRAM memory access, which is the reason why it can still write >90MB/s with Live View on.
[/quote]

okay, very good hint!
so, for me.....the writing speed does not alter in any way. neither live view enabled/disabled nor turning the screen completely off makes any difference.
writing speed does not exceed 40 MB/s. while reading is always about 100 MB/s.

think it is truly a limitation of the card.

tomorrow i should have the new komputerbay x1000 card. i just want around 50-60 MB/s.

but the latest build with the fast_raw recording module gives me 1536x656 @ 23.9 fps. global draw off.

and it seems that temperature really influences the recording performance. my cam gets really hot after a while. i don´t have the issues with the 550D. it showed rock solid performance even in bright sun light and 35 degrees centigrade. i would be worried taking pictures in those conditions with the 50D.

maybe it´s just the metal case of the 50D, conducting more heat to the outside??

briwil

Quote from: necronomfive on June 19, 2013, 08:52:51 PM
It also needs to be seen if Black Magic will actually manage to get full 12-bit raw recording working on SD Cards. Currently, the BMPC "only" shoots 10-bit ProRes 4:2:2.

Getting an BMPC suddenly doesn't make much sense to me anymore.

I'm not saying this is true, I really don't know, but couldn't one argue that the BMPC's 1080p ProRes is still better than 1536x864 RAW?

crash-film

Quote from: briwil on June 19, 2013, 10:03:19 PM
I'm not saying this is true, I really don't know, but couldn't one argue that the BMPC's 1080p ProRes is still better than 1536x864 RAW?

this is sth we will see, when the cam is finally out!
but despite picture quality:
this camera still offers the ability to take the movs straight from the card and start editing immediately. from a professional point of view this is a killer feature!

and 10 bit 422 pro res can provide really good resolution and enough color information to correct the usual accidents while shooting ( white balance, underexposure.... )

and you can be pretty shure  there´s less moire and aliasing straight out of cam.

the workflow is just faster and smoother.

there will be two different kinds of users:

- eos ml raw for the advanced amateur/semi-pro, experimentalists and video artists. just people that don´t have to meet dead lines.     maybe the 5DIII will realy find its market as a production raw shooter

- bmpcc   for industrial/image film shooters, maybe journalists who will like the sleek and slim design and format. the people that pre-ordered it.....   and of course as a landmark in affordable picture quality. just to set pressure on the market and make maybe 422 10 bit the new market standard, replacing 420/411 8 bit

just my thoughts!   ;D

darko


Hi guys, new here and finding interesting helpful stuff here and wanted to share experiences with Transcend 1000x 32 GB.
I am finding that depending on resolution you are filming memory buffer will change.
When filming 1280 x 960 I get speed start at 56mb and shortly climb upto 65-67mb with only one star or ocassionally 2 stars

and fills the whole 32GB card with no frame drop outs.

However, if I was to film in higher resolution memory buffer  will drop to 41-50mb and frame skip also depending on resolution.