Author Topic: ProRes 4444 XQ  (Read 108258 times)

motionSOUL

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2014, 05:10:09 PM »
Woooh thanks, I will test that as soon as possible. If this works it is a very good news for RAW workflow!

S.

budafilms

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2014, 05:19:57 AM »
New Codec was released by Apple (along with new versions of FCPX). I winder if this new codec will be an even better intermediate or even finishing format for all of our 14bit raw file?

http://www.maclife.com/article/news/apple_updates_pro_video_apps_support_prores_4444_xq_media_improvements

I can't find the answer. It's better for our 14 bits?

motionSOUL

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2014, 08:33:59 AM »
I don't know if it is better but, for me, if it works as expected, it will be the answer.
RAW files are huge to keep, sloooow to proceed and I never really liked movie files in image separated manner.
The new codec is far better than the "standard" 4444 ProRes with bigger files so more quality and latitude to grade.
And it will surely react a lot better in all Adobe products like After Effects than DNG ones.

S.

jimmyD30

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2014, 12:36:47 PM »
Yeah, I noticed for stuff like Warp Stabilizer DNGs are really slow in AE, so I usually convert to lossless first then do it.

budafilms

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #29 on: July 12, 2014, 09:47:40 AM »
I don't know if it is better but, for me, if it works as expected, it will be the answer.
RAW files are huge to keep, sloooow to proceed and I never really liked movie files in image separated manner.
The new codec is far better than the "standard" 4444 ProRes with bigger files so more quality and latitude to grade.
And it will surely react a lot better in all Adobe products like After Effects than DNG ones.

S.
What you expect? Wedding images? trees? What do you expect? Flawles work?

You need to use facts, and sources, for explain it, no lot of adjetives.
14 bits it's not  16 or 12. Where is all that information? Why do you need and alpha channel?
Are you sure Adobe manage the same bits of Apple Pro Res as Final Cut X or DaVinci Resolve?
I mean, sometimes the size of a file it's not the quality. A Pro Res created by a Tiiff 20 bits it's very different from jpg.

I'm not the person with the numbers. The idea is not work with Uncompresses files. That's it's quality.

So, the question is: it's useful work with Apple Pro Ress 4444xQ? Or it's no necessary for our resolution?

Danne

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #30 on: July 12, 2014, 10:38:15 AM »
Question is, will there be any visual difference from ProRes4444. Everything is already in there.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht5151

"Apple ProRes 4444 XQ preserves dynamic ranges several times greater than the dynamic range of Rec. 709 imagery. This holds true even against the rigors of extreme visual effects processing in which tone-scale blacks or highlights are stretched significantly."

"Apple ProRes 4444 XQ features a target data rate of approximately 500 Mbps for 4:4:4 sources at 1920x1080 and 29.97 fps."

ProRes 4444
"It has a target data rate of approximately 330 Mbps for 4:4:4 sources at 1920x1080 and 29.97 fps."




reddeercity

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #31 on: July 12, 2014, 10:42:43 AM »
Hey guy just did a small project with the prores 4444 XQ , I think this will work very well with ML raw to retain the information.
With the combination of A.E. (ACR) and apple prores 4444 XQ . Being its a Linear Codec No clipping there is not reason it can't be used
to archive magic lantern files . I was getting around 425Mb/s @ 1856x928 23.976 . The video clip below was 19 GB of Cdng's  and with ProRes4444 XQ
is was 16bit 13.4GB @ 410 Mb/s at  1:4.5 Compression . Basically its a true HDR Codec. If ARRI using it there must be something good about it !
ALEXA XR/XT supports new ProRes 4444 XQ  link to announcement -->  http://www.arri.de/news/alexa-xrxt-supports-new-prores-4444-xq/


Danne

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #32 on: July 12, 2014, 11:27:16 AM »
Some comparison between 422,  4444 and 4444XQ would be a lot of fun :).
Of course, working with professional material always go for the highest quality codec when archiving.

motionSOUL

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #33 on: July 12, 2014, 11:31:21 AM »
I'm certainly not an expert, but I'm not a dumb either. Why people are so inclined to go for a rant!
I don't need alphas for ML (but certainly for other works I'm doing), but as Danne mentioned, Apple is saying the new ProRes XQ codec is better than the standard one in data rate and dynamic ranges. As I have said, the RAW workflow is slower than what BlackMagic and others are proposing in their cameras.
I don't use Resolve for the moment, only After Effects and this new codec seems a very interesting path for me to stock my files after importing them with ACR and use them in AE with faster interactions. That's just what I hope.

S.

budafilms

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #34 on: July 12, 2014, 11:44:01 AM »
Question is, will there be any visual difference from ProRes4444. Everything is already in there.

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht5151

"Apple ProRes 4444 XQ preserves dynamic ranges several times greater than the dynamic range of Rec. 709 imagery. This holds true even against the rigors of extreme visual effects processing in which tone-scale blacks or highlights are stretched significantly."

"Apple ProRes 4444 XQ features a target data rate of approximately 500 Mbps for 4:4:4 sources at 1920x1080 and 29.97 fps."

ProRes 4444
"It has a target data rate of approximately 330 Mbps for 4:4:4 sources at 1920x1080 and 29.97 fps."

As I read, help me if I am wrong, RAW ML work information at 12 bits, and the other 2 bits are Alpha Channel with out information about quality.
So, Apple Pro Res 4444XQ manage at 16 bits. Pro Res 4444 At 12 bits and Pro Res HQ 10 bits.
Work with 4444XQ it's unnecessary - we don't provide more information when we export to a codec with more bits. So, we can get the same quality in Pro Res 4444, and less size of the file - (Aproximate half: 550 mb vs 330).

Maybe I am wrong, I think a Dev can correct this.

Sources: RAW SPANISH http://www.dzoom.org.es/diferencias-entre-raw-y-jpeg/
Apple Pro Ress Source by Danne from Apple.

jimmyD30

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #35 on: July 12, 2014, 12:42:58 PM »
ML raw is 14-bit image data, not 12-bit image and 2-bit alpha, no alpha channel in ML raw. So 16-bit retains the original 14-bit ML raw image data plus 2-bit placeholders (like when converting to CDNG), while 12-bit drops 2-bits of image data.

As for ProRes bit depth "Apple ProRes 4444 XQ and Apple ProRes 4444 support image sources up to 12 bits and preserve alpha sample depths up to 16 bits. All Apple ProRes 422 codecs support up to 10-bit image sources..."

So, looks like new ProRes 4444 XQ drops 2-bit image data as well, but with much higher data rate than ProRes 4444, up to 50% more depending upon original footage specs.

Danne

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #36 on: July 12, 2014, 03:56:27 PM »
I,d say keep the dng:s for archiving. Won,t miss a single bit ;)

jimmyD30

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #37 on: July 12, 2014, 10:55:51 PM »
Someone suggested to keep the .raw/.mlv for archiving rather than the DNGs in case the conversion apps are improved upon at some point in the future, don't know if that would/could ever be the case though.

reddeercity

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #38 on: July 13, 2014, 12:02:35 AM »
The difference between 4444 & XQ is the former is Rec709 (16-235) and the latter is liner (0-255)
ProRes 4444 5.6:1 compression where as XQ is 1:4.5 :)
For comparison , HDCAM SR at 2:1 compression ratio 880 mb/s
Besides all the numbers , It depend on your workflow of choice and what you are expecting, but for me it work with my
workflow (FCPX, Adobe A.E.) and I like the results . My next project (Green Screen Music Video) test the VFX & heavy grading with XQ,
see how it holds up when I start pulling keys .

martin_a

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #39 on: July 13, 2014, 10:40:06 AM »
Hey guy just did a small project with the prores 4444 XQ , I think this will work very well with ML raw to retain the information.
With the combination of A.E. (ACR) and apple prores 4444 XQ . Being its a Linear Codec No clipping there is not reason it can't be used
to archive magic lantern files . I was getting around 425Mb/s @ 1856x928 23.976 . The video clip below was 19 GB of Cdng's  and with ProRes4444 XQ
is was 16bit 13.4GB @ 410 Mb/s at  1:4.5 Compression . Basically its a true HDR Codec. If ARRI using it there must be something good about it !
ALEXA XR/XT supports new ProRes 4444 XQ  link to announcement -->  http://www.arri.de/news/alexa-xrxt-supports-new-prores-4444-xq/


How did you convert cDNG to ProRes XQ ?
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reddeercity

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #40 on: July 13, 2014, 11:19:55 AM »
I hack Apple FCPX 10.1.2 copy the ProRes XQ codec in to QT folder in the library , now adobe see it  then use A.E. CC
with the ACR plugin then export. I made a video tutorial on how to do this on page one with proof it works in Adobe.
 link-->http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=12455.msg121203#msg121203


jimmyD30

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #41 on: July 13, 2014, 12:51:42 PM »
My next project (Green Screen Music Video) test the VFX & heavy grading with XQ,
see how it holds up when I start pulling keys .

Sounds like fun :D

I would think you'll have a good experience with the new codec, such high data rates. If your permitted to share the video and have the time to post it, I'd love to see at least a short clip of the result.

monograph

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #42 on: July 15, 2014, 11:38:28 PM »
Gamma shift...
Using the 'AppleProResCodecEmbedded.component' (ProRes 4444 XQ) from Compressor in Adobe CC (PP & AE) there is a gamma shift (at least in my case) compared to exporting with the older 4444 codec. Is this the case in FCPX too ?  Is it possible to add some lines into the Adobe 'MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCC.xml' to change this (I think the XQ codec has the tag "ap4x") ?
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reddeercity

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2014, 12:51:48 AM »
Gamma shift...
Using the 'AppleProResCodecEmbedded.component' (ProRes 4444 XQ) from Compressor in Adobe CC (PP & AE) there is a gamma shift (at least in my case) compared to exporting with the older 4444 codec. Is this the case in FCPX too ?  Is it possible to add some lines into the Adobe 'MediaCoreQTCodecRulesCC.xml' to change this (I think the XQ codec has the tag "ap4x") ?
I don't have a problem with gamma shifting.
Turn the Automatic Gamma adjust tag off in the Codec Setting Drop down box encoder before you encode in A.E. With ProRes XQ.
Also remember this is a linear color space!(0-255) the old 4444 is in rec 709(16-235 with cliping)
 two difference spaces and when you monitor you must remember that. The RGB & Wave scopes are your friend here, you must pay attention to them
and watch for over saturation .


reddeercity

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2014, 12:58:40 AM »
@ jimmyD30, Yes I will post some material on the green screen music video, Just converting to Pro Res 4444XQ now
Images look killer , I can't tell the XQ files from the Cdng it that good  :D

monograph

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #45 on: July 16, 2014, 01:04:31 AM »
[quote author=reddeercity link=topic=12455.msg122129#msg122129 date=1405464708
Turn the Automatic Gamma adjust tag off in the Codec Setting Drop down box encoder before you encode in A.E. With ProRes XQ.

The RGB & Wave scopes are your friend here, you must pay attention to them
and watch for over saturation .
[/quote]

Yes I tried both on and off in the 'Automatic adjust tag' and I am good friends with Mr. and Mrs. Scopes  :) ...but still getting a shift in gamma  :-X  maybe it's just hackintosh messing with me.
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jimmyD30

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2014, 01:38:55 AM »
Yeah, color grading can be tough without a proper monitor. Scopes can get you most of the way there, but seeing the final result on a calibrated color grading monitor is always nice. I've viewed some of my footage on a variety of devices in the past and it looks different on every one.

Also, the final presentation medium of your footage can make a difference to your color correcting/grading process, such as if it's for web, tv, film, etc. Here's a discussion you might find helpful: https://forums.adobe.com/message/6056828

I've spent some time with Hackintosh, try calibrating your screen, I remember it making a significant difference on my setup :)

reddeercity

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2014, 01:47:51 AM »
[quote author=reddeercity link=topic=12455.msg122129#msg122129 date=1405464708
Turn the Automatic Gamma adjust tag off in the Codec Setting Drop down box encoder before you encode in A.E. With ProRes XQ.

The RGB & Wave scopes are your friend here, you must pay attention to them
and watch for over saturation .


Yes I tried both on and off in the 'Automatic adjust tag' and I am good friends with Mr. and Mrs. Scopes  :) ...but still getting a shift in gamma  :-X  maybe it's just hackintosh messing with me.
Good one  :P One of my Main Editing Computers is a i7 over clocked 4.7 Hackintoss GTX760, AJA LHi ,Atto raid on OSX 10.9.3
I would say No, It did take some to get my Monitor set right thou. First I calibrate my Monitor (32 inch Sony Bravia) to Rec709 with a spider then
Used the Mac Monitor Calibration Software to fine turn it to my eye . But I do edit in FCPX 10.1.2 ,when I did my test in Premiere Pro CC 2014
I didn't see any problems . My Grading Monitor is set to Full Range when I work in A.E. with XQ codec & then set to sRGB when in FCPX. :D

Edit : there again it take some time to get the Color space right on the grading monitor (12bit panasonic plasma )
I had a spider on it all the time and adjust it once a week depending on how long it's on.

monograph

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2014, 02:33:36 AM »
Thanks reddeercity & jimmyD30.... I have allready reached the limits of calibration possibilities with my old Dell labtop, my only real friends here are the Scopes family :)  I guess I am the only one having this "shift in gamma problem" between exports from the older 4444 and the new 4444XQ (the same material becomes a little bit darker, looks like a gamma shift down...). I noticed this when testing the benefits of the new codec. I think I will stay with the old 4444 export workflow untill I get my head around this.  :-\

P.S: perhaps the the CC 2014 (and FCPX) have a different gamma-tag-read than plain CC ??  :o
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jimmyD30

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Re: ProRes 4444 XQ
« Reply #49 on: July 19, 2014, 01:11:58 AM »
I can confirm you can get Apple ProRes 4444 XQ codec in Compressor 4.1.2 ;D