Author Topic: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)  (Read 300958 times)

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #25 on: May 19, 2013, 12:27:01 PM »
CF uses PATA interface. As long as device is PATA-compatible, you can (in theory) attach SSD or HD. But PATA is old technology and storage is not been manufactured any more. Thus you either need a legacy PATA storage device or active converter between PATA -> SATA. There is no magic here.


For raw, I think that best solution would be 2TB ordinary hard drive in hot-swap enclosure. There is no point on trying to adopt SSD as it's:

1. Way more expensive per GB, and raw gobbles capacity
2. PATA tops out at 133MB/s (eventually 150MB/sec), so all extra speed above that figure that SSD provides is essentially wasted, except for transfer back to workstation. Camera cannot go faster than highest PATA speed.
3. Mechanical "spinning rust" drives can provide >100MB/sec throughput and that's good enough for 1920p25 raw.

So going extra mile to connect SATA SSD to camera costs alot more, and gives almost nothing back.


Andy600

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #26 on: May 19, 2013, 12:31:04 PM »
Except SSD is way better for battery life and rough handling as there are no moving parts.  ;)
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Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #27 on: May 19, 2013, 12:54:51 PM »
Except SSD is way better for battery life and rough handling as there are no moving parts.  ;)

True, but you will need to power SATA->PATA electronics and also pay arm & leg for every GB of SSD capacity (while PATA 1TB harddrive is legacy and can still be found cheap). There are specialized PATA SSD's though that might be usable w/o active converter.

JohnBarlow

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #28 on: May 19, 2013, 01:24:59 PM »
Has anyone looked at the service repair manuals for these cameras?

I took a look at some parts catalogs and there seems to be ribbon connections between the main PCB and the Card Controller PCB and the Card Slot board. I wonder if this ribbon connector can be hooked up to something on the outside?

peter.scharff

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #29 on: May 19, 2013, 03:37:39 PM »
This solution to getting out of camera may be better and may allow you to then close the flap on the camera, I think this would work any ideas???

The CF ribbon cable would have to be a short as possible to avoid data loss.......

1:



http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430ffc/

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430fpc-dma/77/

The secondary board would not be used but would then connect to the ADA-FLEX-45P below.

2:



http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-flex-45p-050-set/186


3:



Then add any IDE to SATA converter.

g3gg0

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2013, 04:25:07 PM »
This solution to getting out of camera may be better and may allow you to then close the flap on the camera, I think this would work any ideas???

yep, and this IDE/SATA adapter:
http://www.amazon.de/Bidirektional-SATA-IDE-SATA-anschlie%C3%9Fen-funktioniert-Richtungen/dp/B005H7Q12M/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1368973303&sr=1-3-fkmr0&keywords=ide+to+sata+udma
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peter.scharff

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2013, 04:50:04 PM »
yep, and this IDE/SATA adapter:
http://www.amazon.de/Bidirektional-SATA-IDE-SATA-anschlie%C3%9Fen-funktioniert-Richtungen/dp/B005H7Q12M/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1368973303&sr=1-3-fkmr0&keywords=ide+to+sata+udma


Yep g3gg0 that was the converter in my previous pic, but forgot to mention it was bi-directional ;)

So who is going to try this ??

CF to SATA is not really any use to me as I'm a photographer but thought I would try and help here and I like a seeing things move forward and help solve a problem, and also it's one that could change filmmaking .......



Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2013, 09:34:40 PM »
This solution to getting out of camera may be better and may allow you to then close the flap on the camera, I think this would work any ideas???

The CF ribbon cable would have to be a short as possible to avoid data loss.......

1:



http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430ffc/

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430fpc-dma/77/

The secondary board would not be used but would then connect to the ADA-FLEX-45P below.

2:



http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-flex-45p-050-set/186


3:



Then add any IDE to SATA converter.

Now we are talking! That was a good find!

Unfortunately, they don't have any pricing info on ESSkabel site, but it's in Deutchland = no tolls or VAT to Sweden :)
I'll shoot them a mail and ask. I have 1TB PATA disk stashed away somewhere that could be used for tests. It would eliminate the converter. (It seems that it's impossible to buy big PATA drives nowadays, everyone has moved to SATA)

P.S.
I don't have any interest in shooting raw either as I only have 550D and GH2 with which I shoot kids, ducks and flowers with but this would be rather cool thing to do, on purely academic merits :)

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2013, 09:51:51 PM »
P.S. As 5Dmk3 uses UDMA7, I think using ADA-COMPACTFLASH-EXTENDER-0430FPC-DMA would be better solution as it's printed two-ply cabling can support fast(er) clock speeds.

peter.scharff

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2013, 10:18:20 PM »
P.S. As 5Dmk3 uses UDMA7, I think using ADA-COMPACTFLASH-EXTENDER-0430FPC-DMA would be better solution as it's printed two-ply cabling can support fast(er) clock speeds.


Yep Grunf, I posted links to both versions but just used the photo from the basic version if you look :)

Yep I sent of a mail too, lets see whats happens, I like the idea of being able to close the 5D III flap I hope this works out, either way there is a little microswitch when the flap closes senses the card door shut if you push in this microswitch it lets you use the cards with the flap open if you hold it in, so you can use cards with the card door open.

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2013, 10:35:24 PM »

Yep Grunf, I posted links to both versions but just used the photo from the basic version if you look :)

Yep I sent of a mail too, lets see whats happens, I like the idea of being able to close the 5D III flap I hope this works out, either way there is a little microswitch when the flap closes senses the card door shut if you push in this microswitch it lets you use the cards with the flap open if you hold it in, so you can use cards with the card door open.

That's great Peter! If anyone is able to provide correct cabling, I bet these guys will be the ones. Their stuff looks like real deal. All other CF breakout-boxes I've found on the net were either old-school thin-wire cables (that probably wouldn't be able to do 22ns signaling) or just vaporware.

I did some thinking. While ADA-FLEX-45P looks like exactly the thing we are looking for, it seems to be just a straight-through connector interface. Thus, the line mapping between CF and IDE (like seen here: http://pinouts.ru/DiskCables/ide2cf_cable_pinout.shtml ) is probably not implemented.

I believe that smarter solution would be to just crimp two female CF adapters on ribbon cable (as displayed on picture of 0430FPC-DMA), and then use any of readily-available bi-directional CF-to-PATA/SATA interface boards?

What do you think?

Regards,

X-RAY

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #36 on: May 19, 2013, 10:42:33 PM »
@ Peter
You are german yourself right? Me too.


If I can help in some way ... language-related or testing parts in germany (I'm a 5D2-owner) then let me know.
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Redrocks

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #37 on: May 19, 2013, 10:44:11 PM »



Yep I sent of a mail too, lets see whats happens, I like the idea of being able to close the 5D III flap

This. The ability to keep the door closed is a big point. I imagine most of us are exposing the card slot a lot more than we ever have and it can't be good in the long run. If this company would be prepared to produce a limited run of CF to sata solutions, I'll take 2.

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2013, 10:46:06 PM »
P.S.
Re: CF-door microswith, I bet it could be solved the following way:

1. Cut a slit on CF-door with a Dremel tool.
2. Insert the CF-dummy
3. Pull the FPC ribbon cable through the slit
4. Close the CF door.
4. Connect the ribbon to whatever it needs to be connected to.

They say "minimum 5mm bending radii" so I huess you couldn't just let it go under the door.

Redrocks

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2013, 01:41:26 AM »
http://img.wonderhowto.com/img/37/93/63450671556631/0/quick-start-guide-set-up-your-canon-5d-mark-ii-10-easy-steps.w654.jpg

@Grunf the card door is fixed in place with a swinging metal plate that covers most of the exposed area of the card when closed. There is about 25 mm width clearance on the camera body between the 2 door pegs for going under the door, but it's obviously designed to be sealed to a degree.

s---70

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2013, 02:52:16 AM »
edit: here was a question that's already been answered

dashv

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2013, 07:46:42 AM »
Is the CF drive on the 5D MKII and III using memory mode or IDE?

If it uses IDE mode then an adapter like this:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

Might work. Not sure if it supports UDMA 7 throughput speeds though.

It's by the same company that makes the extension cable peter posted about.

This product is not posted on their site, you can apparently only order it by contacting them directly, though.

An older version of the product is documented in English and can be found here:
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40.pdf

If you want to go from CF -> sata, monoprice has this for $6:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10407&cs_id=1040701&p_id=327&seq=1&format=2

I have not yet tried any of this myself so the standard "try at your own risk" disclaimer applies. :)

I am attempting to order a sample of the ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40 myself to test with my 5D MK IIs. If I have any luck I'll let you know.

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2013, 08:46:53 AM »
Is the CF drive on the 5D MKII and III using memory mode or IDE?

If it uses IDE mode then an adapter like this:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

Great find! That's the thing we are looking for! :D First test could be done towards IDE HDD w/o any electronics in-between.

dashv

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2013, 08:53:02 AM »
Great find! That's the thing we are looking for! :D First test could be done towards IDE HDD w/o any electronics in-between.

I have 3 IDE western digital caviar drives unused and unloved just waiting for the adapter to arrive. :) Tomorrow is a holiday in Germany so I probably can't get an order in until Tuesday at the earliest. Then I need to wait for it to arrive here in California. :P

I also have an ancient Samsung 3.1 megapixel camera I plan to test it with first (no pesky door sensor to worry about). If I brick that camera or one of the drives no big deal. But if it works I'll try it on one of my 5D MK IIs.

Peter, where is the documentation you've been reading about the door sensor? Can you post any pictures about where it is exactly? If there is a way to trick it without cutting up or taking apart the camera, that's the route I'd prefer to go.

Grunf

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2013, 09:41:51 AM »
dashv:
Remember to format it to same file system as camera expects from CF ;)
Also, most older CF cameras couldn't write to big CF cards. For example, 5D classic needed firmware update to use CF cards bigger than 4 (or was it 8?) GB. So start with small FAT32 or FAT16-partition.




g3gg0

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #45 on: May 20, 2013, 10:23:52 AM »
Is the CF drive on the 5D MKII and III using memory mode or IDE?

it is using IDE mode.

the camera first resets the card using IO pins, then via device control a soft reset.
then it issues an IDENTIFY DRIVE (0xEC) command.
according to the capabilities the firmware then it sends a SET FEATURES command (0xEF) to enable cache.
after an IDLE COMMAND (0xE3) with 500ms it enables UDMA mode using SET FEATURES (0xEF) again.

reading is done via commands READ SECTOR(S) (0x20) and READ DMA EXT (0x25) (PIO/DMA).
writing is done via commands WRITE SECTOR(S) (0x30) and WRITE DMA EXT (0x35) (PIO/DMA).

also the command FLUSH CACHE (0xE7) is being used for flushing buffers.

so there is nothing special being used by canon.
even a CD_ROM drive should work after we patch out the rotating drive check.
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X-RAY

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #46 on: May 20, 2013, 10:43:45 AM »
@ dashv
The Door Switch is right above the CF-insert (5D2 here). It is pushed by the door flap.
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xaled

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #47 on: May 20, 2013, 12:12:56 PM »
I contacted esscable last week

The compactflash-ide40 adapter is not vailable anymore.

According to this spec it was done in 2004:
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40.pdf

dashv

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2013, 03:57:38 PM »
Xaled, version 1.0 was 2004. In 2010 there was a revision to 1.1.

Bummer if they don't sell it any more!

xaled

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Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2013, 04:25:25 PM »
I mailed them on 15th and they repled, that it is decontinued.

I'll try to call them, may be if there will be a substential interest say 100 pieces, they would be interested.