Magic Lantern Forum

Using Magic Lantern => Hardware and Accessories => Topic started by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 03:10:09 PM

Title: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 03:10:09 PM
With existing ML patch allowing us to record raw data to CF card and EDMAC DMA-copy having very high bandwidth (>500MB/sec), it's becoming obvious that it's CF speed that is biggest obstacle in using raw for higher resolutions and/or frame rates.

To circumvent pricey (and often temperamental) CF cards, we need reliable CF-to-SATA transfer interface.

My belief is that such device could be done.

What we need is Bi-Directional converter for serial and parallel ATA that supports UDMA-7 on PATA side. SATA side isn't important as even the lowest speed (rev.1 ) is 150MB/s which is almost as good as UDMA-7 157MB/s.

Quick Google search: here's one for 38 dollars:

http://www.cooldrives.com/saidecomisat1.html

Quick check of specs:
Serial ATA 1.0 Specification compliant
Automatic Serial ATA 1.5 Gbps speed negotiation
ATA / ATAPI PIO mode 0 to 4
ATA / ATAPI Ultra DMA of transfer rate 16.7, 25, 33, 48, 66, 100, 133, and 150MB/s.

It supports UDMA-7 on PATA-side!!!


One thing that is left is to interface IDE to CF slot. Electrical specs should be the same, but physical interface differ.
Thus, we need female "faux CF"-to-PATA passive adapter. I don't know if such exist but I could make one by disassembling old CF card and soldering new lines. :D

Are there any other radio-shack geezers that would like to volunteer for some good-old HW tinkering? ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bumkicho on May 17, 2013, 03:15:51 PM
If someone kickstarts this project, I will gladly support!!!!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: AnotherDave on May 17, 2013, 03:17:32 PM
What about a CF extender cable?  They make those!

CF to IDE adapters seem like they're merely PIN converters!  So they should be BI-directional, right?

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: xaled on May 17, 2013, 03:19:53 PM
See this thread, it was discussed already:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5397.0
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 03:26:01 PM
Converter from my top post seems to be withdrawn. This one works the same and also supports UDMA-7:
http://www.cooldrives.com/index.php/saidecomisat.html
It supports both  the ATA register command set and PACKET command set. (which is good as I'm unsure which is used by CF).

CF to IDE-passive converter schematics:
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/CFtoIDE.pdf


Pinout for CF in CF specifications (page 40):
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/cfspc3_0.pdf
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 03:32:05 PM
What about a CF extender cable?  They make those!

CF to IDE adapters seem like they're merely PIN converters!  So they should be BI-directional, right?

CF uses IDE on electrical layer so yes, theoretically you only need a passive wire-layer adapter. ;)

Buffering, scheduling and re-packing data into SATA format is done by active adapter, which probably uses Marvel SOC chip or such.
It's so cheap I'll order one and see if I can make it work.

(P.S. I need to borrow 5D, I have a GH2 :D )
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 17, 2013, 03:50:03 PM
where are you from?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: peter.scharff on May 17, 2013, 04:18:38 PM
Check here : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-in-1-IDE-to-SATA-SATA-to-IDE-Converter-Adapter-2-Way-/320907872874

 ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Cityeater on May 17, 2013, 04:50:15 PM
I've been avidly following developments. Thanks to the devs for their hard work its yielding some incredible results.

Following over from the other thread in regards to an external hardware component I thought I might suggest something a little more generic in regards to the interface.

I love the ribbon CF extender cable, is there a way to slip the ribbon in under the cover of the 5d for a painless external mod? Flap could stay closed. Permanently.

But I wonder if something more generic using more robust existing hardware could be a tidier solution.

I have no expertise in this area but couldn't something like this

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/845797-REG/Lexar_LRW307URBNA_Professional_USB_3_0_Dual_Slot.html

interface between the cf extender and a USB 3 male to male to a USB 3 SSD battery powered portable drive? It may prove cheaper (If there was some way to get it to work) and a bit more robust for those of us in the field. Also USB 3 cases are fairly ubiquitous and maybe there is a RAID one which could provide some level of redundancy.

That reader could also host something on the SD card slot so it maybe easier to code (again well outside my realm of knowledge) something that was compatible with the sd card model canons aswell? A Universal magic lantern solution. I'm not sure what challenges this represents but I could imagine something like that rubber banded together and secured near the flap.

Also might allow for easier mag changes. What do you think?

Just spitballing, love the work you're doing.   
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 09:53:12 PM
Cityeater:

Product you're linking to is interface between CF-card and USB. That's "wrong way". What we need is emulation of CF (so camera believes it's connected to CF but data goes to SATA). While Camera-SD-USB interface is probably doable, it's not trivial  My idea is more like stringing a cludge from COTS components. ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 10:04:17 PM
where are you from?
Sweden, so shipping costs for most of SATA-PATA converters from E-bay cost more than interface itself :(
I guess that limited testing could be done on old CF-camera, like an old Ixus or such. If it works and lines are soldered correctly, I could ask a friend to borrow me his 5D.

I've been sifting through different implementations of bi-directional PATA-SATA interfaces.
This one looks promising (notice single 12V power supply!):

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812186032
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: coutts on May 17, 2013, 10:16:02 PM
I have an old 5dc that is bricked, if I extract the cf controller and ship it to you would that help?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 10:27:58 PM
I have an old 5dc that is bricked, if I extract the cf controller and ship it to you would that help?

Nope, it needs to be tested on working CF-camera. But for first round, it doesn't have to be a 5D. Any old CF camera will do (so we can verify the interface works).

If I solder the PATA <-> CF cable wrong, it might brick the CF-slot, that's why it would be best to test it on something old.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Dash on May 17, 2013, 10:42:52 PM
@Grunf: Maybe someone in China will find a way to make new business on this :) I hope that some people got this idea also.
Connecting fastest SDD would give us 4k in raw :) Or am I wrong? What writing speed is needed for 4k RAW?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 17, 2013, 11:12:00 PM
@Grunf: Maybe someone in China will find a way to make new business on this :) I hope that some people got this idea also.
Connecting fastest SDD would give us 4k in raw :) Or am I wrong? What writing speed is needed for 4k RAW?

Even if interface supports full PATA speed, you would never be able to go above 167MB/sec as that is the limit of UDMA-7 controller in 5Dmk3. 1920x1080p24 RAW is 83MB/s, you do the math.

Realistically, I don't think interface will be able to max out UDMA7 even if it works. But if it can write raw 1080p24 onto honking big SATA harddrive w/o dropping frames, that would be cool ;)

It would be like good old days of carrying separate tethered U-Matic recorder with you 8)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: VectorZ on May 18, 2013, 03:39:59 AM
These guys seem like the kind of people who could build such an interface:

http://www.hwtools.net/index.html
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pumaTPG on May 18, 2013, 04:33:17 AM
dont know if this link was posted , but might be useful. http://www.sycard.com/180hib.html
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 18, 2013, 09:32:44 AM
dont know if this link was posted , but might be useful. http://www.sycard.com/180hib.html

Thanx for the heads-up, but I don't think it can be used.Clock speed for UDMA-7 is 24 ns ÷ 2. In order to have any chance of it to work, leads must be soldered directly on CF connector and kept short (w/o any breaks in-between), using 80-lead cable (with shielding). Otherwise, cross-talk and standing-waves would cause corruption.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Cityeater on May 18, 2013, 09:40:34 AM
While Camera-SD-USB interface is probably doable, it's not trivial  My idea is more like stringing a cludge from COTS components. ;)

Thanks Grunf good to know, looking forward to what you all come up with. I read in another thread a little about the difficulty of getting the usb hosting to work, its a shame it wasn't that easy but I'm sure you guys will crack it.
For longer form stuff an ssd (or equivalent) is going to be pretty useful (or necessary) at the roughly 6GB a minute rate these are putting out.
This Sata interface you're working on could prove to be as useful as the RAW hack in the first place for some of us.
Looking forward to developments, best of luck.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 12:22:48 AM
Hmm..I tried to make a adapter but it was much trickier than I imagined. I butchered CF card and de-soldered the contactor but line pitch is so small it's impossible to do it even with SMD soldering iron. I guess some sort of Host Interface Board is a must :( I have to check how much Sycard one costs.

I also thought a bit further about this, I bet you could eliminate SATA-PATA translation all together if you let camera talk to native PATA drive, formated as FAT32.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhem.bredband.net%2Fgorbeg%2Fbild.JPG&hash=5cb2b25c56cabe4ed85587a462bc4162)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Andy600 on May 19, 2013, 12:33:27 AM
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sycard-CF-Extend-180HIB-CompactFlash-CF-Host-Interface-Board-/140667597411
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bass1012dash on May 19, 2013, 08:48:09 AM
Hmm..I tried to make a adapter but it was much trickier than I imagined. I butchered CF card and de-soldered the contactor but line pitch is so small it's impossible to do it even with SMD soldering iron. I guess some sort of Host Interface Board is a must :( I have to check how much Sycard one costs.

I also thought a bit further about this, I bet you could eliminate SATA-PATA translation all together if you let camera talk to native PATA drive, formated as FAT32.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhem.bredband.net%2Fgorbeg%2Fbild.JPG&hash=5cb2b25c56cabe4ed85587a462bc4162)

sorry to hear, but is that's all that's needed, a ssd drive and a sycard? just the hardware hack?


If that pans out... AWESOME!!!!!!!

While I can't donate anything, I wish you the best of luck and cheer you on, good sir!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 10:13:40 AM
no, not SSD. Ordinary harddrive. SSD's are usually shipped with SATA, we need PATA drive. And you will still need 12/5V to run the harddrive.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: N.Mendes on May 19, 2013, 10:33:10 AM
Hello all, how are you?

Andrew from Eos Hd said that he might have found a way to attach SSd to CF slot...

you should take a look at this  tweet:

https://twitter.com/EOSHD/status/335826242324541440
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: nanomad on May 19, 2013, 10:36:48 AM
It's exactly what other people have proposed :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 12:27:01 PM
CF uses PATA interface. As long as device is PATA-compatible, you can (in theory) attach SSD or HD. But PATA is old technology and storage is not been manufactured any more. Thus you either need a legacy PATA storage device or active converter between PATA -> SATA. There is no magic here.


For raw, I think that best solution would be 2TB ordinary hard drive in hot-swap enclosure. There is no point on trying to adopt SSD as it's:

1. Way more expensive per GB, and raw gobbles capacity
2. PATA tops out at 133MB/s (eventually 150MB/sec), so all extra speed above that figure that SSD provides is essentially wasted, except for transfer back to workstation. Camera cannot go faster than highest PATA speed.
3. Mechanical "spinning rust" drives can provide >100MB/sec throughput and that's good enough for 1920p25 raw.

So going extra mile to connect SATA SSD to camera costs alot more, and gives almost nothing back.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Andy600 on May 19, 2013, 12:31:04 PM
Except SSD is way better for battery life and rough handling as there are no moving parts.  ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 12:54:51 PM
Except SSD is way better for battery life and rough handling as there are no moving parts.  ;)

True, but you will need to power SATA->PATA electronics and also pay arm & leg for every GB of SSD capacity (while PATA 1TB harddrive is legacy and can still be found cheap). There are specialized PATA SSD's though that might be usable w/o active converter.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: JohnBarlow on May 19, 2013, 01:24:59 PM
Has anyone looked at the service repair manuals for these cameras?

I took a look at some parts catalogs and there seems to be ribbon connections between the main PCB and the Card Controller PCB and the Card Slot board. I wonder if this ribbon connector can be hooked up to something on the outside?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: peter.scharff on May 19, 2013, 03:37:39 PM
This solution to getting out of camera may be better and may allow you to then close the flap on the camera, I think this would work any ideas???

The CF ribbon cable would have to be a short as possible to avoid data loss.......

1:

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fen.esskabel.de%2Fimages%2Fmade%2FADA-CompactFlash-EXTENDER_500x500_Kabelansicht_281_281_81.jpg&hash=c67da1c50995b8018e570108d136250d)

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430ffc/

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430fpc-dma/77/

The secondary board would not be used but would then connect to the ADA-FLEX-45P below.

2:

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.esskabel.de%2Fupload%2Fimages%2Fproduktbilder%2FADA-FLEX-45P-050_top_ISO-0.jpg&hash=b3631c66a25dca21632b372f7e96ea5a)

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-flex-45p-050-set/186


3:

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.success-max.net%2Fupload%2F1217407274%2F121740727437807.jpg&hash=cb75f2190530ddd63792279d772929eb)

Then add any IDE to SATA converter.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 19, 2013, 04:25:07 PM
This solution to getting out of camera may be better and may allow you to then close the flap on the camera, I think this would work any ideas???

yep, and this IDE/SATA adapter:
http://www.amazon.de/Bidirektional-SATA-IDE-SATA-anschlie%C3%9Fen-funktioniert-Richtungen/dp/B005H7Q12M/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1368973303&sr=1-3-fkmr0&keywords=ide+to+sata+udma
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: peter.scharff on May 19, 2013, 04:50:04 PM
yep, and this IDE/SATA adapter:
http://www.amazon.de/Bidirektional-SATA-IDE-SATA-anschlie%C3%9Fen-funktioniert-Richtungen/dp/B005H7Q12M/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_3?s=computers&ie=UTF8&qid=1368973303&sr=1-3-fkmr0&keywords=ide+to+sata+udma


Yep g3gg0 that was the converter in my previous pic, but forgot to mention it was bi-directional ;)

So who is going to try this ??

CF to SATA is not really any use to me as I'm a photographer but thought I would try and help here and I like a seeing things move forward and help solve a problem, and also it's one that could change filmmaking .......


Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 09:34:40 PM
This solution to getting out of camera may be better and may allow you to then close the flap on the camera, I think this would work any ideas???

The CF ribbon cable would have to be a short as possible to avoid data loss.......

1:

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fen.esskabel.de%2Fimages%2Fmade%2FADA-CompactFlash-EXTENDER_500x500_Kabelansicht_281_281_81.jpg&hash=c67da1c50995b8018e570108d136250d)

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430ffc/

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430fpc-dma/77/

The secondary board would not be used but would then connect to the ADA-FLEX-45P below.

2:

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.esskabel.de%2Fupload%2Fimages%2Fproduktbilder%2FADA-FLEX-45P-050_top_ISO-0.jpg&hash=b3631c66a25dca21632b372f7e96ea5a)

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-flex-45p-050-set/186


3:

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.success-max.net%2Fupload%2F1217407274%2F121740727437807.jpg&hash=cb75f2190530ddd63792279d772929eb)

Then add any IDE to SATA converter.

Now we are talking! That was a good find!

Unfortunately, they don't have any pricing info on ESSkabel site, but it's in Deutchland = no tolls or VAT to Sweden :)
I'll shoot them a mail and ask. I have 1TB PATA disk stashed away somewhere that could be used for tests. It would eliminate the converter. (It seems that it's impossible to buy big PATA drives nowadays, everyone has moved to SATA)

P.S.
I don't have any interest in shooting raw either as I only have 550D and GH2 with which I shoot kids, ducks and flowers with but this would be rather cool thing to do, on purely academic merits :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 09:51:51 PM
P.S. As 5Dmk3 uses UDMA7, I think using ADA-COMPACTFLASH-EXTENDER-0430FPC-DMA would be better solution as it's printed two-ply cabling can support fast(er) clock speeds.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: peter.scharff on May 19, 2013, 10:18:20 PM
P.S. As 5Dmk3 uses UDMA7, I think using ADA-COMPACTFLASH-EXTENDER-0430FPC-DMA would be better solution as it's printed two-ply cabling can support fast(er) clock speeds.


Yep Grunf, I posted links to both versions but just used the photo from the basic version if you look :)

Yep I sent of a mail too, lets see whats happens, I like the idea of being able to close the 5D III flap I hope this works out, either way there is a little microswitch when the flap closes senses the card door shut if you push in this microswitch it lets you use the cards with the flap open if you hold it in, so you can use cards with the card door open.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 10:35:24 PM

Yep Grunf, I posted links to both versions but just used the photo from the basic version if you look :)

Yep I sent of a mail too, lets see whats happens, I like the idea of being able to close the 5D III flap I hope this works out, either way there is a little microswitch when the flap closes senses the card door shut if you push in this microswitch it lets you use the cards with the flap open if you hold it in, so you can use cards with the card door open.

That's great Peter! If anyone is able to provide correct cabling, I bet these guys will be the ones. Their stuff looks like real deal. All other CF breakout-boxes I've found on the net were either old-school thin-wire cables (that probably wouldn't be able to do 22ns signaling) or just vaporware.

I did some thinking. While ADA-FLEX-45P looks like exactly the thing we are looking for, it seems to be just a straight-through connector interface. Thus, the line mapping between CF and IDE (like seen here: http://pinouts.ru/DiskCables/ide2cf_cable_pinout.shtml ) is probably not implemented.

I believe that smarter solution would be to just crimp two female CF adapters on ribbon cable (as displayed on picture of 0430FPC-DMA), and then use any of readily-available bi-directional CF-to-PATA/SATA interface boards?

What do you think?

Regards,
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: X-RAY on May 19, 2013, 10:42:33 PM
@ Peter
You are german yourself right? Me too.


If I can help in some way ... language-related or testing parts in germany (I'm a 5D2-owner) then let me know.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Redrocks on May 19, 2013, 10:44:11 PM



Yep I sent of a mail too, lets see whats happens, I like the idea of being able to close the 5D III flap

This. The ability to keep the door closed is a big point. I imagine most of us are exposing the card slot a lot more than we ever have and it can't be good in the long run. If this company would be prepared to produce a limited run of CF to sata solutions, I'll take 2.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 19, 2013, 10:46:06 PM
P.S.
Re: CF-door microswith, I bet it could be solved the following way:

1. Cut a slit on CF-door with a Dremel tool.
2. Insert the CF-dummy
3. Pull the FPC ribbon cable through the slit
4. Close the CF door.
4. Connect the ribbon to whatever it needs to be connected to.

They say "minimum 5mm bending radii" so I huess you couldn't just let it go under the door.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Redrocks on May 20, 2013, 01:41:26 AM
http://img.wonderhowto.com/img/37/93/63450671556631/0/quick-start-guide-set-up-your-canon-5d-mark-ii-10-easy-steps.w654.jpg

@Grunf the card door is fixed in place with a swinging metal plate that covers most of the exposed area of the card when closed. There is about 25 mm width clearance on the camera body between the 2 door pegs for going under the door, but it's obviously designed to be sealed to a degree.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: s---70 on May 20, 2013, 02:52:16 AM
edit: here was a question that's already been answered
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: dashv on May 20, 2013, 07:46:42 AM
Is the CF drive on the 5D MKII and III using memory mode or IDE?

If it uses IDE mode then an adapter like this:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

Might work. Not sure if it supports UDMA 7 throughput speeds though.

It's by the same company that makes the extension cable peter posted about.

This product is not posted on their site, you can apparently only order it by contacting them directly, though.

An older version of the product is documented in English and can be found here:
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40.pdf

If you want to go from CF -> sata, monoprice has this for $6:

http://www.monoprice.com/products/product.asp?c_id=104&cp_id=10407&cs_id=1040701&p_id=327&seq=1&format=2

I have not yet tried any of this myself so the standard "try at your own risk" disclaimer applies. :)

I am attempting to order a sample of the ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40 myself to test with my 5D MK IIs. If I have any luck I'll let you know.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 20, 2013, 08:46:53 AM
Is the CF drive on the 5D MKII and III using memory mode or IDE?

If it uses IDE mode then an adapter like this:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

Great find! That's the thing we are looking for! :D First test could be done towards IDE HDD w/o any electronics in-between.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: dashv on May 20, 2013, 08:53:02 AM
Great find! That's the thing we are looking for! :D First test could be done towards IDE HDD w/o any electronics in-between.

I have 3 IDE western digital caviar drives unused and unloved just waiting for the adapter to arrive. :) Tomorrow is a holiday in Germany so I probably can't get an order in until Tuesday at the earliest. Then I need to wait for it to arrive here in California. :P

I also have an ancient Samsung 3.1 megapixel camera I plan to test it with first (no pesky door sensor to worry about). If I brick that camera or one of the drives no big deal. But if it works I'll try it on one of my 5D MK IIs.

Peter, where is the documentation you've been reading about the door sensor? Can you post any pictures about where it is exactly? If there is a way to trick it without cutting up or taking apart the camera, that's the route I'd prefer to go.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 20, 2013, 09:41:51 AM
dashv:
Remember to format it to same file system as camera expects from CF ;)
Also, most older CF cameras couldn't write to big CF cards. For example, 5D classic needed firmware update to use CF cards bigger than 4 (or was it 8?) GB. So start with small FAT32 or FAT16-partition.



Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 20, 2013, 10:23:52 AM
Is the CF drive on the 5D MKII and III using memory mode or IDE?

it is using IDE mode.

the camera first resets the card using IO pins, then via device control a soft reset.
then it issues an IDENTIFY DRIVE (0xEC) command.
according to the capabilities the firmware then it sends a SET FEATURES command (0xEF) to enable cache.
after an IDLE COMMAND (0xE3) with 500ms it enables UDMA mode using SET FEATURES (0xEF) again.

reading is done via commands READ SECTOR(S) (0x20) and READ DMA EXT (0x25) (PIO/DMA).
writing is done via commands WRITE SECTOR(S) (0x30) and WRITE DMA EXT (0x35) (PIO/DMA).

also the command FLUSH CACHE (0xE7) is being used for flushing buffers.

so there is nothing special being used by canon.
even a CD_ROM drive should work after we patch out the rotating drive check.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: X-RAY on May 20, 2013, 10:43:45 AM
@ dashv
The Door Switch is right above the CF-insert (5D2 here). It is pushed by the door flap.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimageshack.us%2Fscaled%2Fmedium%2F254%2F5d2doorswitch.jpg&hash=8e0e1ca31a42a0fa64acdc5b4ea8df86) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/254/5d2doorswitch.jpg/)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: xaled on May 20, 2013, 12:12:56 PM
I contacted esscable last week

The compactflash-ide40 adapter is not vailable anymore.

According to this spec it was done in 2004:
http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40.pdf
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: dashv on May 20, 2013, 03:57:38 PM
Xaled, version 1.0 was 2004. In 2010 there was a revision to 1.1.

Bummer if they don't sell it any more!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: xaled on May 20, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
I mailed them on 15th and they repled, that it is decontinued.

I'll try to call them, may be if there will be a substential interest say 100 pieces, they would be interested.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: dashv on May 20, 2013, 05:41:20 PM
X-Ray, thanks for that!

G3gg0, sounds promising.

I have tons of older IDE drives under 2 gigs from various manufacturers.

Unfortunately I threw away all my AT power supplies a year ago. Kicking myself now.

So I'll have to get something like this:

http://www.amazone.com/wall-in-jack-4pin-Molex-Adapter/dp/B00AG679NO

To power the drive.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: eduperez on May 20, 2013, 08:02:45 PM
If time is not a constraint (their shipping is terribly slow), there are a couple of sites where these adapters are easy to find: http://dx.com/ and http://focalprice.com/; I also have several 10GB and 40GB PATA drives laying somewhere around here...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bumkicho on May 20, 2013, 09:36:27 PM
Has anyone suggested Compact Flash Ethernet Card?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 20, 2013, 09:53:36 PM
Has anyone suggested Compact Flash Ethernet Card?
Fastest speed is 100Mbit, which is a magnitude slower than needed for raw.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 20, 2013, 09:54:55 PM
I mailed them on 15th and they repled, that it is decontinued.

I'll try to call them, may be if there will be a substential interest say 100 pieces, they would be interested.

It should be in their interest that this works as we imagined. If it does, they might sell rather more than 100 pieces ;)

P.S. I found a 500GB Seagate Barracuda PATA drive that woyuld be perfect for this. Only ATA-100 though, which means max 100MB/sec.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: squig on May 21, 2013, 03:33:50 AM
I just hooked a Lexar expressCard CF reader up to my macbook with an internal samsung extreme SSD. It's recording a 4Gb file from a Toshiba 1066x card to the SSD in 28 seconds. That's roughly 142.8MB/s.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on May 21, 2013, 09:56:51 AM
Hi there,

first, big respect and props to all the devs of this forum here. An amazing work has done. Thank you!
Now to do my best part I just called ESS Cables in Germany. They were very friendly but don´t know if a cf to sata adpter will reach the speed of lets say 100 MB/s and higher. Also, they have to build an adapter to connect the both devices -
ADA-COMPACTFLASH-SATA and ADA-COMPACTFLASH-EXTENDER-0430FPC-DMA.

The Sales Manager told me he will give his best to support this project and will give us the possibilitiy to try it out. Sending Testing-Hardware. But he and their engineers need time until next week to get best solution. So lets see what happens.
By the way:
Yesterdays ML Testing Video with Canon 5D MIII - Komputerbay 1000x 128GB, 1920x720, 25p:

Best regards
Daniel -
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: zachnfine on May 21, 2013, 10:47:48 AM
I had thought maybe this item:

Micro SATA Cables - mSATA SSD to 40 Pin ZIF Adapter Card as Toshiba or Hitachi ZIF HDD
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009BA5JU6/ref=ya_aw_oh_pit

Looked as though it might accomplish the bridging between SATA and IDE, and then this item:

Micro SATA Cables - 40 Pin ZIF to 50 Pin 1.8 Inch CF Toshiba HDD Adapter
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009BG1ETA/ref=ya_aw_oh_pit

...could go from the previous adapter to the cf connector.

So the net effect would be the ability to connect a sata ssd drive to the cf slot in the 5d3. I ordered both items, but unfortunately I don't recognize the actual connector on that msata to ZIF adapter and am not sure how to connect anything to it.

I also grabbed one of these, thinking it might come in handy for powering the ssd and going between a couple of common sata connections.

I still figure the first two items above may be promising, but have hit a wall for a moment with the msata connector.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: zachnfine on May 21, 2013, 10:48:51 AM
The last link should be:
Syba SATA to Mini SATA Cable with Molex Power Adapter (CL-CAB40042)
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005BCNAWM/ref=ya_aw_oh_pit
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: xaled on May 21, 2013, 11:54:37 AM
@kopfsalatmedien

Just as I wanted to give esscable a call... ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on May 21, 2013, 03:55:30 PM
...this could be another way for an external recording solution:

i.e. first we need the the shortest (i.e. 30mm) Esscable Extender - but only the cf-card adapter with the ffc cable, asumed that this connection could be dissolved from board!
The board with the male connectors isn´t needed. 
http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430ffc/

Than we need the Flexset (http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-flex-45p-050-set/186/)
to connect the cf card and the ffc cable to it.

Next is a mini- ide to ide adapter with molex for power supply, i.e.

http://www.m-ware.de/adapters-and-converters/sintech-mini-ide-to-ide-hdd-adapter-44pin-to-40pin-id5600-st4044a/a-5600/

to get the fastest 2,5 inch ssd pata disk at work. This could be this one:
http://www.urano-shop.de/Shop/DE/Product/Details/2165/963292/false/
This PATA SSD writes up to 90MB/s with a buffer of 64MB.

Anyone knows faster ones?
Another question: Is the writing speed that essential or could the buffer compensate that?

The SSD goes Fat32 - hit record!

What do you think about it?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Andy600 on May 21, 2013, 11:12:33 PM
Have you thought of something like this: http://davidhunt.ie/?p=2641 ?

OK, it won't alter CF write speeds but it might negate the need for multiple (expensive) cards by pushing raw files to an external HD once they have finished writing on the CF card and maybe the Raspberry Pi SBC has enough power to compress or even convert in the process to whatever codec is installed. Just a thought :)


Update: I made a post about this as it's different in principle to what is being discussed in this topic.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5592.msg38841#msg38841
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: dashv on May 22, 2013, 03:20:36 AM
Be careful with the zif adapters. There are some that look like they might work but I have read on a few vendors sites specific disclaimers that they are not intended for straight cf-IDE. A couple of the pins are wired differently and you can brick your drive.

If you try it, use a drive you don't care about loosing!

The link I posted was for an adapter that was specifically intended to go from cf-IDE.
Title: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: zachnfine on May 22, 2013, 04:05:00 AM
I think I'm on track.

If I had an ssd with msata connector, and could figure out a way to power the ssd, I'd be able to test all this gear out right now. But what I've got as a testbed is a crucial m4 sata SSD, so I need a way to connect it to that mSATA to ZIF adapter. And I found it:

Micro SATA Cables - mSATA to 7pin SATA Adapter
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009UDAINW/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

So that device will go from my ssd drive to the msata connector on the adapter, where it's also bridged to IDE. Then the ZIF to CF adapter connects to the camera's slot. Power? Maybe that SATA to Mini SATA cable with power adapter I'd bought will help, maybe not. I'm still investigating.


I had thought maybe this item:

Micro SATA Cables - mSATA SSD to 40 Pin ZIF Adapter Card as Toshiba or Hitachi ZIF HDD
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009BA5JU6/ref=ya_aw_oh_pit

Looked as though it might accomplish the bridging between SATA and IDE, and then this item:

Micro SATA Cables - 40 Pin ZIF to 50 Pin 1.8 Inch CF Toshiba HDD Adapter
http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B009BG1ETA/ref=ya_aw_oh_pit

...could go from the previous adapter to the cf connector.

So the net effect would be the ability to connect a sata ssd drive to the cf slot in the 5d3. I ordered both items, but unfortunately I don't recognize the actual connector on that msata to ZIF adapter and am not sure how to connect anything to it.

I also grabbed one of these, thinking it might come in handy for powering the ssd and going between a couple of common sata connections.

I still figure the first two items above may be promising, but have hit a wall for a moment with the msata connector.
Title: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: zachnfine on May 22, 2013, 04:09:21 AM
The fact that reviews for the adapter I've chosen mention success at using it to connect 256Gb mSATA SSD drives to iPods gives me hope --as far as I know all the iPod classics use PATA IDE drives. So this would mean the adapter is successfully bridging from mSATA to PATA IDE and allowing access to the mSATA drive's full capacity.

Be careful with the zif adapters. There are some that look like they might work but I have read on a few vendors sites specific disclaimers that they are not intended for straight cf-IDE.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on May 22, 2013, 06:32:28 AM
Im sure it's been discussed, but would a CF>SD adapter card, with an SD-USB adapter be an option? Im not sure the transfer speed, but I know I've seen SD-to-USB carts out there. The specific setup I've seen before was SD port>SD-USB>Thumbdrive. It was being used with a PDA, but regardless, I've seen it.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 22, 2013, 07:11:25 AM
I see you guys had posted links to these earlier: http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430fpc-dma/77/ but were not sure if they could handle the correct speeds. Has anyone found any cable extenders that work/maintain optimal speeds? I only ask because I have been testing a few cards by simply putting them in the freezer for a very brief amount of time and I am able to squeeze quite a bit out of them and I'd like to try marrying a Peltier wafer, http://www.shop.customthermoelectric.com/00711-5L31-06CB-Thermoelectric-Peltier-Module-00711-5L31-06CB.htm;jsessionid=84C65D1ACCFCCBBDCC0A9CB276A75BF5.m1plqscsfapp01?gclid=CNPXu-_4qLcCFYLm7AodqSYA1w, to a card outside the camera to see if I can test some more.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 22, 2013, 07:27:37 PM
I got back a short mail from ESS kabel that they don't sell to private customers.
Also, my questions about which combinations of adapters/cables would fit went unanswered.

It's a pity really, they don't understand that they are missing potential market if it works.
:(
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 22, 2013, 07:31:40 PM
i also wrote them and got an answer - 75EUR  per cable + 10 EUR shipping. (i am from germany where the company is from)
i can order it as a company if needed.

they cannot guarantee that it will work with these transfer speeds, which isnt a big surprise to me.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: AnotherDave on May 22, 2013, 08:40:09 PM
I got back a short mail from ESS kabel that they don't sell to private customers.
Also, my questions about which combinations of adapters/cables would fit went unanswered.

It's a pity really, they don't understand that they are missing potential market if it works.
:(

The market potential really isn't that big... and you know it.  Sure, a lot of them will be sold within the first 2-6 months... but once you have it you'll never need another one. 

If you want to talk market... there is a bigger, more profitable market for some smart (and daring) company to physically modify the camera to take a SSD.  But even then... the market really isn't that big.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on May 22, 2013, 09:35:18 PM
I talked to ESSkabel´s sales manager yesterday by phone. He said he will talk with ess cables engineers if the cables can hold the speeds limits of udma7 and our requirements will fit to their products.
Also, he said to me the market would not be that big, but he want to help us because he likes such kind of projects requests.

So still waitnig some days until next week. There will be an answer I am sure!
Otherwise I will call next week again to ask for a feedback.

I very much like the idea of Andy600 to get a microcontroller and maybe hard drives in the batterygrip that handles a lot of bonus features. http://davidhunt.ie/?p=2641 ? Also combined with a peltier element could be a good idea! Really Cool stuff!



Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 22, 2013, 10:11:47 PM
I talked to ESSkabel´s sales manager yesterday by phone. He said he will talk with ess cables engineers if the cables can hold the speeds limits of udma7 and our requirements will fit to their products.
Also, he said to me the market would not be that big, but he want to help us because he likes such kind of projects requests.

So still waitnig some days until next week. There will be an answer I am sure!
Otherwise I will call next week again to ask for a feedback.

I very much like the idea of Andy600 to get a microcontroller and maybe hard drives in the batterygrip that handles a lot of bonus features. http://davidhunt.ie/?p=2641 ? Also combined with a peltier element could be a good idea! Really Cool stuff!

you talked to Klaus S., right?
thats the one who offered me the cable.
i will let you do the rest, so there is only one person who nags them ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on May 22, 2013, 10:14:37 PM
Ja genau, so machen wir das - ich mache das gerne.
Yes thats right - let´s do it thay way - I love to do that.
Where do you come from g3gg0 - i am from Karlsruhe?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: squig on May 23, 2013, 01:22:52 AM
You can tell the ESS guy the market is in the thousands, potentially 10s of thousands. Sounds profitable ja?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 23, 2013, 05:00:42 AM
I saw you guys were posting other stuff from Sycard but I didn't anyone mention this: http://www.sycard.com/cfext182.html  Seems to be simple enough to just extend the CF card outside the case. Would you think it could handle the throughput?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on May 23, 2013, 06:01:03 AM
Im sure it's been discussed, but would a CF>SD adapter card, with an SD-USB adapter be an option? Im not sure the transfer speed, but I know I've seen SD-to-USB carts out there. The specific setup I've seen before was SD port>SD-USB>Thumbdrive. It was being used with a PDA, but regardless, I've seen it.

Ok, so this is similar to the product I mentioned in the above quote:
http://www.singaporecorporategifts.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=137&products_id=1501&osCsid=d67cf03a5260367d452ca02d3d08ac6e

There are no specs listed in terms of speed, but I have sent an inquiry to the manufacturer--hopefully I get a reply. Would something like this be a viable option?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: scrax on May 23, 2013, 06:06:46 AM
Ok, so this is similar to the product I mentioned in the above quote:
http://www.singaporecorporategifts.com/shop/product_info.php?cPath=137&products_id=1501&osCsid=d67cf03a5260367d452ca02d3d08ac6e

There are no specs listed in terms of speed, but I have sent an inquiry to the manufacturer--hopefully I get a reply. Would something like this be a viable option?

CF is the faster, SD will slow down transfer and usb will slow down it more, so better a big CF
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on May 23, 2013, 10:07:46 AM
Hi

It seems lots of people thought the same, after seeing how awesome the 5D3+RAW is and how expensive big and fast CF cards are.

I've already got some parts at home, I'll be playing with my soldering iron this weekend, I'll let you know how it goes (I won't say much, my plan, as always, is to get rich!  ;D ).

And I also wrote to ESSkabel and a couple of other firms, saying the market would be in the thousands or maybe tens of thousands, and that the margins could be huge (since the only alternative are the ultra-expensive CF cards) and didn't manage to impress any of them. I hope I'll have better luck if I achieve proof-of-concept.

For those trying this: the cheapest thing you can brick is, probably, a card reader. I only plan to put the thing inside a camera if I get it working there first.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 23, 2013, 11:51:49 AM
For those trying this: the cheapest thing you can brick is, probably, a card reader. I only plan to put the thing inside a camera if I get it working there first.

Risk of bricking will be fairly low as long as you get CF <-> PATA leads right. You could start by trying to write to PATA HDD from old CF camera, using PIO mode (= no active SATA/PATA converter in-between). That would be quite safe ;)

Good luck!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: savale on May 23, 2013, 01:24:50 PM
a pata to compact flash adapter is not that hard to make, but you need a quite fast 7200rpm drive with some good write cache to get enough write speed... A really large one is a nice to have too since a harddisk is about twice times slower when it's almost full compared to when it's empty, but about 70 to 60MB/s write speed is feasible I think.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 23, 2013, 01:32:07 PM
goal is a SSD, not a spinning disc.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 24, 2013, 05:05:03 PM
Has anyone found the 5D3 service manual?  I found this Forum post: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1216590 and there is a parts manual but no one has posted the 5d3 service manual there.  Was hoping someone here was more successful.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Yomommassis on May 24, 2013, 06:53:18 PM
This existed??
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geekstuff4u.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2FF%2Fo%2FFour-Slot-MicroSDHC-to-CF-Converter.jpg&hash=ebb93dcbe549e71c4169ac29eb59c844)
http://www.geekstuff4u.com/four-slot-microsdhc-to-cf-converter.html?___store=en&___store=en#.UZ-Z6JywV7w
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: eatstoomuchjam on May 24, 2013, 07:21:56 PM
This existed??
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.geekstuff4u.com%2Fmedia%2Fcatalog%2Fproduct%2Fcache%2F1%2Fimage%2F9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95%2FF%2Fo%2FFour-Slot-MicroSDHC-to-CF-Converter.jpg&hash=ebb93dcbe549e71c4169ac29eb59c844)
http://www.geekstuff4u.com/four-slot-microsdhc-to-cf-converter.html?___store=en&___store=en#.UZ-Z6JywV7w

Yeah, but it's not all that fast.
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/cfcard-64-gb-with-microsdhc-raid-0_topic44099.html

Newer/fast cards are likely doing something similar internally anyway.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Redrocks on May 24, 2013, 07:33:58 PM
Thinking out loud:

Would it be possible to butcher two cards and harvest the connectors to construct a female to female cf extender? One end goes in the camera, the other in something like this:

http://www.fancycost.com/cf-to-sata-converter-adapter-green-p-54074.html#.UZ-immhIFrQ

Even if you had to power the sata component with another source?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on May 24, 2013, 08:20:19 PM
Yeah, but it's not all that fast.
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/cfcard-64-gb-with-microsdhc-raid-0_topic44099.html

Newer/fast cards are likely doing something similar internally anyway.

But but but...it says EXTREMELY FAST on the card!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on May 24, 2013, 10:12:10 PM
Ok, call me stupid (and you probably will) as I am NOT by any means someone who has a background in engineering, but would it be at all possible to take the guts of a fast CF with low storage, and combine them with the storage of a higher end CF with slow w/r capabilities?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 25, 2013, 05:53:51 AM
No, the controller as well as the memory chips are both responsible for the speed of a particular card.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on May 25, 2013, 11:06:09 AM
Thinking out loud:

Would it be possible to butcher two cards and harvest the connectors to construct a female to female cf extender? One end goes in the camera, the other in something like this:

http://www.fancycost.com/cf-to-sata-converter-adapter-green-p-54074.html#.UZ-immhIFrQ

Even if you had to power the sata component with another source?

That one goes the wrong way: it shows a CF card to a SATA controller. But apart from that, the part of building a CF extender is, you're right, the first step. Not anywhere near as simple as it sounds: these damn connectors are SMALL! My soldering iron doesn't have a chance here, I think. I'm trying something else.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 26, 2013, 02:14:23 PM
Hi all,
I just ordered all that stuff.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magiclantern.fm%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2Fcf-extender-290-mm-with-flat-ribbon.jpg%5Bimg%5D%3Cbr+%2F%3E%5Bimg%5D%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2F%24%28KGrHqJ%2C%21hwF%21P3v6vV7BQKB83dBDQ%7E%7E60_35.JPG&hash=453dc9327582bceb451bf54727ddf61d)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magiclantern.fm%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2F21UGjS8ZvTL.jpg&hash=99a6041abc159817e3d81a3722e113a8)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magiclantern.fm%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2F61VOENKW4KL._SL1000_.jpg&hash=d5cba7c0fdada0c9b228147b8030d0e7)
I'm going to make the small board to connect the CF extension to the ide port.
If it works, my idea is to build an enclosure, with my 3D printer, that replace the removed door, protect the ribbon that have to point down and maintain safely the boards and DD under the grip. The aim being to keep it as run an gun as possible.
I have a question about alimentation, how to use the 7,5v from the grip LPE6 to power up the 5v recording system ?

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: nanomad on May 26, 2013, 05:26:10 PM
You need to upload the images somewhere ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 26, 2013, 06:01:00 PM
Hi all,
I just ordered all that stuff.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magiclantern.fm%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2Fcf-extender-290-mm-with-flat-ribbon.jpg%5Bimg%5D%3Cbr+%2F%3E%5Bimg%5D%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2F%24%28KGrHqJ%2C%21hwF%21P3v6vV7BQKB83dBDQ%7E%7E60_35.JPG&hash=453dc9327582bceb451bf54727ddf61d)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magiclantern.fm%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2F21UGjS8ZvTL.jpg&hash=99a6041abc159817e3d81a3722e113a8)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.magiclantern.fm%2FUsers%2FMONTAGE%2FDesktop%2F61VOENKW4KL._SL1000_.jpg&hash=d5cba7c0fdada0c9b228147b8030d0e7)
I'm going to make the small board to connect the CF extension to the ide port.
If it works, my idea is to build an enclosure, with my 3D printer, that replace the removed door, protect the ribbon that have to point down and maintain safely the boards and DD under the grip. The aim being to keep it as run an gun as possible.
I have a question about alimentation, how to use the 7,5v from the grip LPE6 to power up the 5v recording system ?

If you don't mind me asking, which CF extender are you using?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 26, 2013, 07:11:37 PM
Sorry, I'm not good at posting pics, hope I'll be better at engineering this CF HDD !

Here is the IDE/SATA converter
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IDE-to-SATA-or-SATA-to-IDE-Converter-Adaptor-ATA-100-133-Bi-Directional-Card-/180950933635?ssPageName=ADME:L:OC:FR:3160

Here is the CF extender
http://store.calexium.com/en/316-cf-extender-290-mm-with-flat-ribbon.html

Here is the final cable
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0037KJBDM/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A1X6FK5RDHNB96
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 26, 2013, 09:08:22 PM
Much appreciated!  I was looking for a non-discontinued CF ribbon cable!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: KMikhail on May 27, 2013, 12:51:04 AM
Hello team,

What about CF to USB3 conversion, instead of CF to SATA? Portable drives with USB3 have their own power out put, USB3 is fast enough (theoretically), and there are fully portable packages available.

I know, it might work in a wrong direction, but... something like this:

http://www.rakuten.com/prod/5gbps-usb-3-0-2-0-to-hard-dirve-hard-disk-drive-sata-ide-adapter/230514238.html?listingId=213389903

or this:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/19793234?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227000000000&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=&wl3=21486607510&wl4=&wl5=pla&veh=sem

Cheers
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 27, 2013, 10:28:56 AM
Inside the USB portable package, the discs are SATA ones so this would ad a unneeded conversion : IDE -> USB -> SATA instead of IDE -> SATA. I don't know if it slows down the data transfer but it surely consume more power.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: KMikhail on May 27, 2013, 11:10:58 AM
Inside the USB portable package, the discs are SATA ones so this would ad a unneeded conversion : IDE -> USB -> SATA instead of IDE -> SATA. I don't know if it slows down the data transfer but it surely consume more power.
True that. But I consider workable portability (something like seagate wireless plus with built in rechargeable battery) as a much, much appreciated feature. I am not a pro with a fully grown rig, I need something easy to carry and easy to use. Those adapters shouldn't consume too much, I think, and will be powered up by a usb port. If it will ever work, of course.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 27, 2013, 09:37:31 PM
Building a small power supply with a battery would be a breeze for this project. I wouldn't worry about adapting to a USB3 HDD enclosure due to portability with power.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 28, 2013, 07:30:04 AM
The parts will be here tomorrow... Let see if it works...
Portability is not a big problem, I'm going to design an enclosure, like a grip, to put all that stuff together under the camera. I'll share the 3D model.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 3pointedit on May 28, 2013, 11:59:03 AM
Will you be 3D printing the grip enclosure? If so thats pretty cool.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bumkicho on May 28, 2013, 07:58:15 PM
The parts will be here tomorrow... Let see if it works...
Portability is not a big problem, I'm going to design an enclosure, like a grip, to put all that stuff together under the camera. I'll share the 3D model.

Looking forward to the outcome of your project. It will be huge if you can pull this off.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 28, 2013, 10:25:37 PM
Yes I will 3D print it, but first got to make all work
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on May 29, 2013, 10:37:28 AM
My project is on hold, as I wait for some parts to arrive... grrrrr...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: rm312 on May 29, 2013, 10:12:07 PM
just read through all of this and very interested in where its going. Would this help cut out a few of the components? female CF - IDE extension

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-20-cm-CF-Female-to-IDE-Male-Adapter-Extension-Cable-/300572249445 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-20-cm-CF-Female-to-IDE-Male-Adapter-Extension-Cable-/300572249445)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 12:05:15 AM
It's not the good CF gender :(
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 30, 2013, 01:55:46 AM
does that CF extender you purchased support 150+ MB/s pascalc?  That's the main issue I am running into, trying to find an extender that holds up to the speeds we're trying to achieve.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: zachnfine on May 30, 2013, 02:02:16 AM
I hooked all my parts together: SATA to mSata adapter (and SATA power connector from my computer), mSata to ZIF, ZIF to Toshiba CF, CF to USB3 CF card reader, Card reader to computer, and got nothing. The LED on the card reader lights up when powered up and a card is recognized, but it remained unlit. The orientation of the ZIF to CF cable wasn't obvious, so I tried it both ways (didn't seem to fry anything, but neither worked).

It'd be nice if I had devices that'd work with each element of the chain (i.e. something that takes an mSata connector, something that takes ZIF) so that I could find the weak link. I'm not sure where to go from here. It seemed like a possible route that might work using available hardware.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: KMikhail on May 30, 2013, 05:56:26 AM
just read through all of this and very interested in where its going. Would this help cut out a few of the components? female CF - IDE extension

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-20-cm-CF-Female-to-IDE-Male-Adapter-Extension-Cable-/300572249445 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-20-cm-CF-Female-to-IDE-Male-Adapter-Extension-Cable-/300572249445)

What's strange is that apparently cable width is the same as the width of IDE and CF connectors, and 'CF' connector looks more like an IDE one.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 08:49:13 AM
I dont know if it achieve the the 150 Mo we are targeting, it's not specified on the website and I did not received all the parts to make a test (one won't be here before june 8th!).
I just can see that he bus is really thin...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 10:40:24 AM
Bad news, when the CF extender is inserted, with the door open, nothing happens when I push the small contact. In the same situation, with a regular CF or with nothing, it starts up ! Someone has an idea ?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on May 30, 2013, 10:49:48 AM
CF slots usually have a contact inside, which is triggered as soon as something is inserted. I guess, when that contact is closed, the camera expects a memory card, even though it is just a cable.
I've experienced something like that when I insert a dead CF card. The camera won't boot. Without, however, it will.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 12:26:17 PM
I tried the extender in a Lexar USB 3 CF card reader and it works, the card at the other side of the ribbon mount on the computer. That let me think that Canon could have prevented this kind of things. If that's not the case, how to solve it ? Did someone tried another CF adapter ?
Otherwise, with a 32Gb Sandisk Extreme 60MB/s it is as fast as the card can write, about 60 Mo/s but with a Transcend 128Gb 1000x it drops to 40 Mo/s.
A lot of mysteries...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: squig on May 30, 2013, 12:39:32 PM
The camera senses when the door is open yeah. So you just have to figure out a way around that.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 12:49:27 PM
No, with a regular CF I can start the camera with the door opened pushing the contact with a small piece of plastic. With the extender it doesn't works. The camera recognize it's not a normal CF.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 3pointedit on May 30, 2013, 01:59:39 PM
Is the extender behaving like a PC spec device or a camera device, that is with a different ground on some pins? I gather from the spec http://www.amtron.com/cfcard/amtron_cf_su_spec_v4.2.pdf that CF cards behave differently depending on where they are being used. Perhaps the drive device at the other end is just not appearing as a CF card. How can you emulate it better? Perhaps a pin loop, or effective ground.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 30, 2013, 02:07:00 PM
i already expected this result.
the last few days i read a lot about CF card specification and reversed the parts of the camera that interact with CF.
i think i have a plan what we would have to patch to make it working.

1. CF is reset
2. CIS structure is read and parsed (needs to be patched)
 - RotatingDeviceInfo
 - MakerAndVersionTuple
 - ConfigurationTuple
 - WriteProtectTuple
3. Reconfigures the card for I/O Mapped Operation Mode (needs to be patched)
4. partition table is read and checked for 0x55AA at the end
5. first partition is checked for a supported type (1,4,5,6,7,B,C,E)
6. device is available


which camera model do you use?

can you run this plugin with your disk attached?
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36699#msg36699
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Pelican on May 30, 2013, 02:24:00 PM
http://pinouts.ru/Memory/CompactFlash_pinout.shtml
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 02:38:23 PM
Thanks g3gg0

I use a 5D3.

I also have a 1DC.
With this one the camera can be started with the door opened but it says it can't read the card and ask to format it but when doing so it says it can't do it.

I don't understand where your link is pointing to.
 
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on May 30, 2013, 03:03:05 PM
I hooked all my parts together: SATA to mSata adapter (and SATA power connector from my computer), mSata to ZIF, ZIF to Toshiba CF, CF to USB3 CF card reader, Card reader to computer, and got nothing. The LED on the card reader lights up when powered up and a card is recognized, but it remained unlit. The orientation of the ZIF to CF cable wasn't obvious, so I tried it both ways (didn't seem to fry anything, but neither worked).

It'd be nice if I had devices that'd work with each element of the chain (i.e. something that takes an mSata connector, something that takes ZIF) so that I could find the weak link. I'm not sure where to go from here. It seemed like a possible route that might work using available hardware.

Try to start with simplest chain possible: female CF -> female IDE -> IDE HDD (formated as FAT32 and powered by external Molex cable).
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 30, 2013, 03:12:36 PM
I don't understand where your link is pointing to.
the link is working, just checked

http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/40763cb6132afa2b257321834ad10154/cf_acc.mo

Debug -> "Read CF details (MAY CAUSE ERR)"
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 04:07:44 PM
Sorry, yes the link is working but it's a page of signs and a lot of �. I don't know what to do with that...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 30, 2013, 05:05:59 PM
The file is probably opening into your browser.  Save the file then move it to your modules.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bumkicho on May 30, 2013, 05:38:29 PM
Not sure if anyone mentioned a product like this before, but I just found this and thought it might be useful.

http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/CFU1U.html
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 30, 2013, 05:40:56 PM
"Add an USB 1.1 Host downstream port to your PDA."

> 12 Mbit/s
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bumkicho on May 30, 2013, 05:42:56 PM
I was wondering if there is a similar product with USB 3 support. Would USB 3 have sufficient speed?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: AnotherDave on May 30, 2013, 05:43:26 PM
Shame it isn't thunderbolt :-/  hehe

Like the concept/design though... a CF card with a port.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: AnotherDave on May 30, 2013, 05:46:16 PM
I was wondering if there is a similar product with USB 3 support. Would USB 3 have sufficient speed?

USB 3 would be idle.  Much faster than the CF interface.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bumkicho on May 30, 2013, 05:54:56 PM
Even if there is a USB Host Adapter CF Card that supports USB 3, will Canon cameras be able to recognize it?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 06:28:28 PM
@
can you run this plugin with your disk attached?
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36699#msg36699

I can load it with the card in the camera but I can't do it using the CF extender, the camera do not turn on
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 30, 2013, 09:03:45 PM
can you plug in the card after the camera powered up and try then?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 30, 2013, 10:19:46 PM
I tried but nothing happened it still says no card in camera
It's possible with the 1DC but unfortunately the 1DC is out of the game :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 30, 2013, 10:25:58 PM
uhm did you run the menu entry i quoted in my post?
what did it say?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on May 31, 2013, 12:31:38 AM
1 ML may22 on a small SD card running
2 CF extender inserted with 32 Go Sandisk previously formatted by the camera
3 "Read CF details" launched
=>
1 ML menu close within 1 seconds
2 Screen turns black (working but showing nothing) in two other seconds and all buttons and wheels are frozen
3 Turn off the camera but screen remains black
4 Have to remove the battery to shut it down

But... now when I insert the extender without the SD card, the camera turns on after 5 seconds and ask to format the card. When doing it, it says it's impossible.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on May 31, 2013, 01:26:09 AM
okay thanks
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Redrocks on May 31, 2013, 05:11:36 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Socket-Communications-100-Ethernet-Card/dp/B00005RZOZ

http://www.electronista.com/articles/12/08/20/aging.standard.is.still.ahead.of.most.core.networking/

There must be one company out there who can capitalise on our needs. Or maybe the product in my Amazon link could be modified to channel the cf readout (to sata) before it's converted to ethernet?

@pascalc Nice efforts, shame it didn't work out.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Redrocks on May 31, 2013, 05:39:14 AM
http://pcmonde.co.uk/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=5&product_id=850009&mpnid=0

>Not only is the Instant Wireless network CF card easy to install and use, it's also powerful.
>You can send and receive data at speeds up to 11 Mbps.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000652LU6/?tag=trex0a-20

Possible candidates for modding?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 31, 2013, 06:45:09 AM
Honestly I think something like this will require some custom made interface components.  I am getting an Arduino soon for another film related project so I will do some digging about on the web for anyone else who has tried creating an IDE controller with Arduino.

Found this already.

http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/725/creating-a-compact-flash-controller

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 31, 2013, 07:06:08 AM
I've also reached out to this guy: http://sbc.rictor.org/index.html since he seems to have a lot of experience with these types of devices.

This forum thread is where I found him. ay shed some new light on this thing: http://forum.6502.org/viewtopic.php?p=8343&sid=a06dc948bd456b223cf8a93d175d37e1
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Redrocks on May 31, 2013, 07:57:36 AM
I've also reached out to this guy: http://sbc.rictor.org/index.html

Great find. This guy might get us there.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 31, 2013, 04:47:04 PM
So the guy replied.  Said Arduino wouldn't be the best bet due to speeds we are trying to achieve and suggested we use a faster chip board like raspberry pi which is more complicated in terms of software BUT has a simple distro of linux running on it and a 700MHz ARM chip.  However the guy did say that this type of thing was way out of his league.  I will research a bit more!

Question: How is the camera interfacing with the CF card? Is it IDE or one of the other types?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Binnyang on May 31, 2013, 05:09:59 PM
Hi all
I am a user to ML who is really interested in filming RAW video based on external storage.
I just like to mention that we actually have an COS solution from Canon :)
http://cpn.canon-europe.com/content/product/accessories/wft_e7_wireless_file_transmitter.do

With the wifi grip, just install a fast CF card to camera, and use 802.11n or Gigabit LAN to transmit file after the shoot. It is really easy to write a daemon service to handle this, and opens up a world of possibility in terms of hardware adaption.

Method 1. Get a 32 GB 1000x CF card, a wifi grip, and stream to the recorded picture to this either continously or after each shoot.
http://www.hypershop.com/CloudFTP-p/cftp-black.htm

Method 2. Same thing. With ethernet (NAS Anyone :))
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on May 31, 2013, 05:22:32 PM
802.11n is rated at max of 150Mbits a second that 150/8=18.75MB/s which is far to slow.  Gigabit LAN is theoretically possible to pass 125MB/s BUT would require about the same amount of work to make a CF to SSD controller to make it work at those speed continuous.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grey_Sally on May 31, 2013, 05:33:18 PM
Not to mention that the WFT-E7 is plugged into the camera via its USB2 port... The older cameras (5D2, 40D, 50D) had proprietary connectors on the base, but I doubt those would be any faster... or easier to figure out
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Binnyang on May 31, 2013, 06:07:24 PM
Ah
It's too bad that its USB based. I thought it was something faster.
I also want to clarify that I am not proposing real time capture into an external media. As a hobby film maker, I just want a cheap way to store my file in the field without forking over 10k worth of memory. I can do that with this grip attachment by grabbing picture from CF card when the camera is not in use. Much easier than carrying a laptop and swapping cards.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on June 01, 2013, 04:54:34 PM
I still have a few parts missing, but I'm playing with what I've got. I've found that at least in some IDE-to-CF adapters there are a few extra connections beyond what this shows: http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/CFtoIDE.pdf
For example, in the one I've analyzed, in the CF connector, pins 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15, 16, 17 and 25 are not "unconnected", but "tied to pins 1 and 50" (which then go to ground). Not the case for pin 24, though.
This may mean that there's something missing in that pdf, or, maybe more likely, that some parts are not actually made to exactly meet the full specification, which could explain the issues some here are having.
This http://pinouts.ru/Memory/CompactFlash_pinout.shtml says that those pins are used for the address bus; the CF-to-IDE connector described in the pdf would leave them unused, but if they're linked together and to ground the camera may freak out and shut down.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 01, 2013, 05:57:39 PM
Hi Samuel, Can I ask you which CF extender did you choose ?
On mine, the link between the card and the exterior socket is a 40 pins ribbon. Some connectors are merged (surely the grounds ones). It works in a Lexar usb 3 card reader on my computer (with slow transfer rate) I don't understand why it doesn't on the camera.
I would like to try something with all the pins directly connected to the external socket but it seems to do not exists.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Cigam on June 01, 2013, 06:17:36 PM
I am not only looking into increasing storage capacity but also into increasing possible write speeds.

Would it be possible that Magic Lantern writes a specific amount of frames onto the SD card?
Let's say we have a CF card with write speeds of 90MB/s and a SD card with write speeds of 30MB/s.

Now could ML use both interfaces? Writing 30MB/s to SD and the rest to CF? This way we could achieve much higher speeds.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on June 01, 2013, 08:38:13 PM
Hi Samuel, Can I ask you which CF extender did you choose ?
On mine, the link between the card and the exterior socket is a 40 pins ribbon. Some connectors are merged (surely the grounds ones). It works in a Lexar usb 3 card reader on my computer (with slow transfer rate) I don't understand why it doesn't on the camera.
I would like to try something with all the pins directly connected to the external socket but it seems to do not exists.

I'm trying to build my own ribbon adapter. Crazy, I know: the CF connectors are SO SMALL!
I bought a cheap cf-card-on-ide-bus adapter to have as an extra reference where I can see what's connected to what in a working product.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 01, 2013, 10:03:58 PM
I was thinking to do the same thing, going directly from CF to IDE.
You have special equipment to solder such small pins ?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on June 02, 2013, 12:51:54 AM
No, just lots of patience, some ingenuity, and a couple of CF cards to trash. I know the most likely outcome is a useless adapter...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 02, 2013, 01:40:25 AM
http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/cb261038fbe4ce0542c6916157095823/autoexec.bin

can you try this autoexec.bin on 5D3 and tell me what the camera does/says?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 02, 2013, 02:18:24 PM
Amazing ! When I turned the camera on, Canon CEO's face appeared on the screen and he told me : "You're on the wrong way Son. Repent and go to buy a C500. Now !". I was trembling but the courage came to me and I was about to answer him that I don't have this huge amount of K€ and that he is the one who stole when he cripple his products but, unfortunately, the camera crashed.



Otherwise, it seems to behave normally except that it's not possible to load the modules.
First time it crashed.
Second time this appeared in the left bottom of the screen

props at : 0x000000000
cbr    at : 0x000000000

and stays there.
When getting out of ML the left part of the scree stays as you can see whatever I do..

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropboxusercontent.com%2Fu%2F86498565%2FIMAG0074.jpg&hash=564360fe3ca3d248dca8cedc1db9be2d)


An other time it says : please send crash LOG 14 then 15 then up to 21 to ML devs, before turning off by itself.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: sketchstudiosla@gmail.com on June 02, 2013, 03:31:57 PM
Has anyone tried the multitude of ide to sata adapters out there?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 02, 2013, 04:14:57 PM
Otherwise, it seems to behave normally except that it's not possible to load the modules.
First time it crashed.
Second time this appeared in the left bottom of the screen

you have the CF -> IDE -> SATA converter attached, but no CF media is accesible?
does the CF icon in the top-LCD show up?

loading the module itself isnt the point. just running the menu entry that will print you the device details is important.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: peter.scharff on June 02, 2013, 10:15:27 PM
Hi  g3ggo I've been testing with a CF to ZIF adapter that has IDE, then from IDE to SATA via a converter, then to a Kingston 64gb SSD and WD 160GB HD, my results are :


When Zif/Ide adapter is powered : SSD :

props at : 0x000000000
cbr at :0x00AA304C

When ZIF/IDE adapter is not powered :SSD

props at : 0x000000000
cbr  at:0x00AA311C


When Zif/Ide adapter is powered : WD 160GB HD :

props at : 0x000000000
cbr at :0x00AA30BC

When ZIF/IDE adapter is not powered :WD 160GB HD

props at : 0x000000000
cbr  at:0x00AA2F8C

So it looks like the camera is seeing the devices, time for some dirty hacks to enable the camera to really use them now ;)


I also tried also to get windows to see all the above by using a USB CF card reader it didn't see anything, and the active light didn't light up on the reader.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 02, 2013, 11:00:19 PM
I just have the CF ZIF extender connected to a 32 CF outside. I would like to have this simple thing working before going to more complicated.
Is it a problem that ZIF has only 40 pins to link the 50 pins inside female CF to the outside 50 pins male CF socket ?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 03, 2013, 12:10:19 AM
these numbers say nothing at all, man :)

the only thing that is important is:
 -> Debug -> "Read CF details (MAY CAUSE ERR)"
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 03, 2013, 12:25:21 AM
Don't mean to digress from the development chat, but what so you suppose the cost would be to have a manufacturer develop a one-off prototype for this?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ptunstall on June 03, 2013, 05:40:31 AM
Don't mean to digress from the development chat, but what so you suppose the cost would be to have a manufacturer develop a one-off prototype for this?

I'm working on that.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 03, 2013, 05:46:53 AM
I'm working on that.

PMed
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on June 03, 2013, 09:22:55 AM
No, just lots of patience, some ingenuity, and a couple of CF cards to trash. I know the most likely outcome is a useless adapter...

I strongly recommend using ribbon foil cable instead of discrete wires.

This one, together with custom made re-mapping PCB should do the trick:

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-compactflash-extender-0430fpc-dma/77/

While ordinary flat-ribbon cable might work for PIO-mode, the signal speed is way too high for unshielded wires. The problems with recognizing the external drive might as well be camera not being able to communicate with drive at high speed.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on June 03, 2013, 11:44:57 AM
^ Yes, I know, but esskabel products are not easy to buy, and others are working on that front too. Right now, I'm just looking for "proof-of-concept" on a CF card reader.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on June 03, 2013, 02:05:02 PM
^ Yes, I know, but esskabel products are not easy to buy, and others are working on that front too. Right now, I'm just looking for "proof-of-concept" on a CF card reader.

I suppose camera checks the capabilities of CF card prior to connecting (in order to recognize older non-UDMA7-capable CF cards. If you can configure your adapter to PIO mode to begin with, it would eliminate one of potential problems during the tests.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mrwolf on June 04, 2013, 01:09:37 AM
I hope you guys pull this off. I'm no coder or electronics engineer but I'm able to do some mechanical/industrial design work to help out.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: heavygrafix on June 04, 2013, 04:18:39 PM
I did some little 3D Rendering, how SSD Hardware for DSLR could look like in future

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6152.0

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heavygrafix.de%2FZZD2.jpg&hash=d469dfb4d1f6d102750abf1169baa277)

EDIT by SDX: use appropriate image sizes.
EDIT by heavy grafiX: Thanks! :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 05, 2013, 07:41:54 AM
Here is my take on a solution that may work using only off the shelf parts.  I do not have a CF capable camera so have no way of testing this.

The plan goes like this
CF Host : CF->40p ZIF adapter (1) : 40p ZIF cable (2) : 40p ZIF to 7+15p SATA SSD adapter1 (3): SATA extension (4) + power injection2 (5) : SATA SSD

My biggest concern would be if there is any reason why a 40P ZIF drive wouldn't work when connected to a CF socket (as opposed to a 1.8" 50p IDE/CF) socket (or worse, damage the CF host device).  Also the adapter would be getting power from the CF socket, however I wouldn't anticipate this being a problem, it also shouldn't be impossible to fix but would require modifications to the electronics.

1This does appear to correctly convert a SSD drive to work with a 40p ZIF host, also appears to be JMicron JM20330 Serial ATA bridge capable of 1.5 Gbps (150MB/s)
2To prevent SSD drawing power from CF host, depending on SSD used yellow line might need 5V or 3.3V

(1) http://www.ebay.com/itm/40pin-1-8-CE-ZIF-HDD-to-1-8-toshiba-Hard-Drive-CF-50pin-converter-adapter-229-/181116022590?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item2a2b5b2f3e (http://www.ebay.com/itm/40pin-1-8-CE-ZIF-HDD-to-1-8-toshiba-Hard-Drive-CF-50pin-converter-adapter-229-/181116022590?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item2a2b5b2f3e)
(2) http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-FFC-FPC-40-pin-0-5mm-Pitch-Ribbon-Flat-Cable-Wire-ZIF-HDD-15cm-Long-New-/110952424273?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d547a351 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-pcs-FFC-FPC-40-pin-0-5mm-Pitch-Ribbon-Flat-Cable-Wire-ZIF-HDD-15cm-Long-New-/110952424273?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item19d547a351)
(3) http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-converter-board-Adapter-for-Half-Slim-SATA-II-22PIN-SSD-to-1-8-CE-ZIF-PATA-/261214036476?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item3cd191e1fc (http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-converter-board-Adapter-for-Half-Slim-SATA-II-22PIN-SSD-to-1-8-CE-ZIF-PATA-/261214036476?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item3cd191e1fc)
(4) http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-SATA-7-Pin-Male-to-Female-Extension-Cable-FIA-L12R-/280645965548?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item4157cd96ec (http://www.ebay.com/itm/12-SATA-7-Pin-Male-to-Female-Extension-Cable-FIA-L12R-/280645965548?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item4157cd96ec)
(5) For 3.3V http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-4-Pin-Molex-to-15-Pin-SATA-Power-Cord-for-SATA-I-and-II-Hard-Drives-w-3-3V-/270819912831?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item3f0e1fec7f (http://www.ebay.com/itm/8-4-Pin-Molex-to-15-Pin-SATA-Power-Cord-for-SATA-I-and-II-Hard-Drives-w-3-3V-/270819912831?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item3f0e1fec7f)
OR for 5V http://www.ebay.com/itm/Serial-ATA-SATA-Power-Converter-Adapter-MOLEX-to-S-ATA-/200268115376?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item2ea0e8edb0 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Serial-ATA-SATA-Power-Converter-Adapter-MOLEX-to-S-ATA-/200268115376?pt=UK_Computing_CablesConnectors_RL&hash=item2ea0e8edb0)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on June 05, 2013, 10:04:14 AM
^ A couple of very good finds there!!

Powering the adapter from the CF slot is actually a good thing: another possible reason for the camera not wanting to work with the adapter could be that it is trying to power a card, and it's finding either an incomplete circuit, or a null load.

The good news is, I now can put down the soldering iron and move on to something else. Man, these pins are small!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mrwolf on June 05, 2013, 12:28:34 PM
Here is my take on a solution that may work using only off the shelf parts.  I do not have a CF capable camera so have no way of testing this.

The plan goes like this
CF Host : CF->40p ZIF adapter (1) : 40p ZIF cable (2) : 40p ZIF to 7+15p SATA SSD adapter1 (3): SATA extension (4) + power injection2 (5) : SATA SSD


Nice find, Do you think it is bi directional? Normally those adapters are to connect a ZIF HD to a motherboard. The ATA to SATA converters have a switch to change from host to device.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 06, 2013, 05:07:57 AM
No, not bidirectional. But from the pictures and description it is intended for connecting a ZIF host to a SATA device.
Adding the CF-ZIF adapter and cable effectively gives a CF host to SATA device adapter.  The next question is, will it work?

The JMicro JM20330 IC (which this board appears to have) has mode pins which can be configured to work in host bridge or device bridge mode.  In this case I assume they are just tied to the appropriate logic level rather than brought out to a switch.

The datasheet for the IC can be found here if anyone is interested, someone who knows more about CF/IDE/ATA may be able to extract meaningful information from it.
http://www.mcuol.com/download/upfile/20080424025139_JM20330_Spec_Rev.%202.3.pdf (http://www.mcuol.com/download/upfile/20080424025139_JM20330_Spec_Rev.%202.3.pdf)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mrwolf on June 06, 2013, 10:47:35 AM
Sure, but isn't the pin out different for ZIF HD and CF? So the converter board would be expecting to see something else.

ZIF:  http://pinoutsguide.com/HD/ata_sata_zif_pinout.shtml

CF: http://pinouts.ru/Memory/CompactFlash_pinout.shtml

Might need something in between to re map the pins? then use a IDE to SATA board.

The Eskabel site seems to have a warning about connecting a IDE HD to a CF socket.

http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-hdd-18-zif-cf-sm/186

Quote
ATTENTION: Do not use this adapter board to connect hard disks to compactflash sockets. It will damage the HDD. It is only designed to replace an old HDD with 50pin embedded-ATA connector which looks similar to a CF-connector (therefore the name of the adapter) by a new ZIF-hard disk!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 06, 2013, 01:04:21 PM
you have the CF -> IDE -> SATA converter attached, but no CF media is accesible?
does the CF icon in the top-LCD show up?

loading the module itself isnt the point. just running the menu entry that will print you the device details is important.

@pascalc:
what is the current state?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 07, 2013, 02:48:58 AM
mrwolf that's right, the CF to ZIF adapter I linked to presumably converts 40p ZIF to 50p IDE (but not true CF).  Hence my concern about compatibility between ZIF "drive" and CF host.

There is clearly a difference between 50pin CF and 50pin IDE, which the Eskabel site clearly warns about.  Even though it is the same connector.

I had a friend install a CF card in place of a 1.8" IDE drive in an old iPod.  The first attempt resulted in a very hot CF card, it was later discovered that an adapter such as this (1) was required and worked well once installed.

What we are attempting to do is essentially the reverse.  I was hopeful that the known (to me) issues with connecting a CF to an IDE host would not manifest in this situation however the warning suggests otherwise.

(1) http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-ATA-to-Compact-Flash-CF-Adapter-1-8-Toshiba-iPod-/221189190420?pt=DE_Computer_Speicherkartenadapter&hash=item337fe73314 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/IDE-ATA-to-Compact-Flash-CF-Adapter-1-8-Toshiba-iPod-/221189190420?pt=DE_Computer_Speicherkartenadapter&hash=item337fe73314)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 07, 2013, 04:01:12 AM
Okay I think I understand the difference between 50p CF and 50p IDE and they are NOT the same.  Therefore I feel it is safe to assume that we will NOT be able to use the above listed CF-ZIF adapter in a CF slot.  It looks like Samuel H will have to pick up his soldering iron again.

The 1.8" Toshiba IDE drives use a connector with the same pitch and pin count as CF, however the pin out is very different.
The 50p IDE is essentially 44p IDE offset by 3 positions (6 pins in total).  The first 4 pins are used as master/slave jumpers, and the other two are unused.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.pinout.net%2Fconnectors%2Fide1.8.GIF&hash=0247b96483dc6ecea0e2166c54ea159c)
From
http://pinout.net/pinout-scheme/416/Ultra-slim%20fast%201.8%20inch%20Winchester%20disk%20drives (http://pinout.net/pinout-scheme/416/Ultra-slim%20fast%201.8%20inch%20Winchester%20disk%20drives)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 07, 2013, 04:15:28 AM
This guy has made a CF host to to 2.5" IDE device work by soldering wires directly into the CF socket (not ideal).
The interconnect between the two interfaces looks legitimate though and could be the "last inch" needed for a CF to SATA converter.

http://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39 (http://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 07, 2013, 08:35:24 AM
@g3gg0
I can't have the external CF card recognized by the camera with CF extender. For me finding a workable solution just to get out of the camera is the first inescapable step to solve before thinking to convert to sata and power up.
I've told the problem to two electronic companies in France with no answers at that time.
As it works with a computer, but half the speed of direct plugging, I don't really believe in ZIF solutions any more.
For me the route now is soldering a 50 pin ribbon to an opened CF and temporarily to a regular CF socket at the other side just to check if it works when the camera finds what it's supposed to find. For the moment I don't have time to stars this job. Hope next week.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 08, 2013, 01:18:07 AM
pascalc, if I was attempting to solder wires to a CF connector, rather than hacking open a card I would use on of these
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gizfever.com%2Fimages%2FCF_To_1.8_IDE_Adapter1.jpg&hash=36c3ab57cfd3229959b086d2da7836cc)
and cut the (male) CF socket off, and solder wires to the pads on the (female) plug.  The connector has pads on both sides of the board and therefore gives a much coarser pitch to solder wires to, it also appears to have generous sized pads.

You would need to be careful to make sure none of the pads are connected to each other electrically before soldering any wires on.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 08, 2013, 01:54:50 AM
This guy has made a CF host to to 2.5" IDE device work by soldering wires directly into the CF socket (not ideal).
The interconnect between the two interfaces looks legitimate though and could be the "last inch" needed for a CF to SATA converter.

http://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39 (http://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39)

This is the better design interface and the way to go. Although, you need a CF riser extender card or CF extender cable to connect the interface(CF side) to the camera). Try an IDE drive first. Focus on this. See if Magic Lantern, enumerate the device setup as a Compact Flash (I know it would), then your work is done. The rest would be easy!, IDE to SATA last.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 08, 2013, 03:37:45 AM
pascalc, if I was attempting to solder wires to a CF connector, rather than hacking open a card I would use on of these
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.gizfever.com%2Fimages%2FCF_To_1.8_IDE_Adapter1.jpg&hash=36c3ab57cfd3229959b086d2da7836cc)
and cut the (male) CF socket off, and solder wires to the pads on the (female) plug.  The connector has pads on both sides of the board and therefore gives a much coarser pitch to solder wires to, it also appears to have generous sized pads.

You would need to be careful to make sure none of the pads are connected to each other electrically before soldering any wires on.

This is perfect, CF Extension cable is needed (something like this: http://www.sycard.com/cfext182.html) or the CF to SATA:http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200152CVF. All that is required is a cable (CF female connector to the camera).

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/12-200-152CVF-01.jpg
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 08, 2013, 05:27:37 AM
Hah, would it be as simple as using the 182 extender and plugging it directly into a CF-to-SSD adapter such as this one below?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/581025713/SATA_to_Compact_Flash_SSD_Adapter.htm

l
This is perfect, CF Extension cable is needed (something like this: http://www.sycard.com/cfext182.html) or the CF to SATA:http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812200152CVF. All that is required is a cable (CF female connector to the camera).

http://images10.newegg.com/NeweggImage/productimage/12-200-152CVF-01.jpg



Just noticed in your amazon CFSATA that hot swapping would not be possible, and Im assuming the same is with my alibaba model :(
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Haliburton on June 08, 2013, 07:50:09 AM
I thought the link was dead, but in fact it's just a copy/paste error: the URL needs a a lower-case "L" on the end:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/581025713/SATA_to_Compact_Flash_SSD_Adapter.html

Hah, would it be as simple as using the 182 extender and plugging it directly into a CF-to-SSD adapter such as this one below?
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/581025713/SATA_to_Compact_Flash_SSD_Adapter.htm

l

Just noticed in your amazon CFSATA that hot swapping would not be possible, and Im assuming the same is with my alibaba model :(
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 08, 2013, 08:15:02 AM
@g3gg0
I can't have the external CF card recognized by the camera with CF extender.

so the problem is that your *pure* CF extender isnt working?
this extender isnt IDE to CF and CF to IDE, but only a CF extender, right?
if yes, then the camera has to boot.

any adapter that is made for translating or adapting smth. will most likely *not* work and/or crash the camera.
thats why i made the patched binary and asked what the module says when you select its menu entry

5D3 binary: http://upload.g3gg0.de/pub_files/cb261038fbe4ce0542c6916157095823/autoexec.bin
module: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36699#msg36699


@peter.scharff:
can you test the same please?
the module output on loading is useless. to into menu and run the menu entry.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 08, 2013, 10:21:42 AM
This is a real head scratcher of a problem, without going the custom route that is.

Makes me wonder if we could order a CF connector that you don't need to solder, maybe it is a pressure/snap fit, and then do the same with an IDE connector, with the appropriate wiring that is. Still custom, but a helluva lot easier.

But I am not sure if the host would recognize the hdd as an IDE device.

Anyways, Digikey sells both connectors, a female CF card socket (1), and a male IDE header (2), we don't have to use these exact connectors, but its so crazy it just might work.

They also sell an entire CF card "kit" (3), which reminds me of PCMCIA cards with that thick part at the end. If we went this route, we could even maybe hire someone to design a circuit that connects the CF side directly to a SATA bridge IC and a SATA socket.

Click the datasheet for more information on the part.

(1) http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0677990004/WM3468DKR-ND/2405081 (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/0677990004/WM3468DKR-ND/2405081)

(2) http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/87332-4020/WM18085-ND/267709 (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/87332-4020/WM18085-ND/267709)

(3) http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/589181000000003/589181000000003-ND/1428795 (http://www.digikey.ca/product-detail/en/589181000000003/589181000000003-ND/1428795)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 08, 2013, 07:15:38 PM
Does anyone know if this CF to IDE mapping table will work? Sourcehttp://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39 (http://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39)

CF Socket | Pin HDD Pin | Function
1    GND    GND
2    11    D3
3    9    D4
4    7    D5
5    5    D6
6    3    D7
7    37    ~CS0
8    N/C    A10
9    N/C    ~ATA SEL
10    N/C    A9
11    N/C    A8
12    N/C    A7
13    N/C    VCC
14    N/C    A6
15    N/C    A5
16    N/C    A4
17    N/C    A3
18    36    A2
19    33    A1
20    35    A0
21    17    D0
22    15    D1
23    13    D2
24    32    ~IOCS16
25    N/C    ~CD2
26    N/C    ~CD1
27    10    D11
28    12    D12
29    14    D13
30    16    D14
31    18    D15
32    38    ~CS1
33    N/C    ~VS1
34    25    ~IORD
35    23    ~IOWR
36    N/C    ~WE
37    31    INTRQ
38    N/C    VCC
39    28    ~CSEL
40    N/C    ~VS2
41    1    ~RESET
42    27    IORDY
43    21    DMARQ
44    29    ~DMACK
45    39    ~DASP
46    34    ~PDIAG
47    4    D8
48    6    D9
49    8    D10
50    GND    GND

The remaining IDE pins are connected as follows:

GND: 2, 19, 22, 24, 26, 30, 40, 43
VCC: 41, 42
N/C: 20, 44
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 08, 2013, 07:26:56 PM
Why look into an IDE interface, with a maximum transfer speed of 163mb/s?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: heavygrafix on June 08, 2013, 08:07:53 PM
Why look into an IDE interface, with a maximum transfer speed of 163mb/s?

Real 163 MB would be amazing. 2880*1280 is realistic for this write speed. but i think there are so many other bottlenecks to solve in these constructions.  i am a little anxious about all this.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: akiesels on June 08, 2013, 11:04:38 PM
Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 08, 2013, 11:29:02 PM
Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander

To my very limited knowledge, wouldnt the use of the IDE host eliminate the ability to hot-swap drives?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: akiesels on June 08, 2013, 11:39:41 PM
Correct.  IDE is not hot-swappable.  But CF is basically a Parallel ATA IDE interface, so we don't have much choice.  Can you hot-swap CF cards on a 5D without powering down the camera?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 09, 2013, 12:01:12 AM
Correct.  IDE is not hot-swappable.  But CF is basically a Parallel ATA IDE interface, so we don't have much choice.  Can you hot-swap CF cards on a 5D without powering down the camera?

The hotswapping is not for CF purposes, it is for use on the SSD side.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: akiesels on June 09, 2013, 12:40:02 AM
For what it's worth, it says "SATA hot plug" on the Lycom adapter spec sheet:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

But I am not sure how well that would work with the camera.  The fact that you can get a terabyte SSD drive for roughly the same price as a 128GB CF card should make swapping less of an issue  ;)

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: heavygrafix on June 09, 2013, 02:15:33 AM
Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heavygrafix.de%2F1.jpg&hash=31fcaff92907e56bc497b9483e5f7517)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 09, 2013, 04:07:23 AM
Hey guys,

I think there is a much simpler solution to do this with off-the-shelf parts. 

There is a CF to IDE adapter manufactured by Fabia Tech in Taiwan that basically exposes a standard 40 pin IDE connector at the end of a "dummy" CF card:

http://www.rcpcomputer.com/automation/FA/CF%20Adapter%20Boards/IDE%20to%20CF/FB4658.pdf

It seems to be rebranded by ES&S Cable in Europe:

http://www.esskabel.de/upload/files/pdf/ADA-COMPACTFLASH-ATA-IDE40_DE.pdf

but I haven't found any US resellers.


You can then use a standard 40 pin cable to connect it to this SATA device to IDE host controller adapter manufactured by Lycom:

http://www.lycom.com.tw/ST106-2.htm

It's rebranded by Rosewill in the US:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812119257

And seems to be also available from ES&S Cable in Europe:
http://www.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/1

The spec says it supports ATA UDMA mode up to 150MB/s.  The SATA side will not be a problem, as it's much much faster.

You should then be able to use any SATA SSD drive, though you'll need to supply external power to it.

I am not sure how much the CF-IDE adapter costs, but it seems to be all passive electronics - just a wire mapping.  So, I can't imagine it being too pricey.  So, without the SSD and the power supply, I am guessing it's less than $50 to try out.

Hope this helps!
Alexander

Good find on that Dummy CF card!

I guess we just need to find out if it will all work together.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 09, 2013, 06:07:27 AM
^ If this device can be sourced it may be your best chance of getting something working.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: akiesels on June 09, 2013, 06:14:01 AM
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heavygrafix.de%2F1.jpg&hash=31fcaff92907e56bc497b9483e5f7517)

That's a funny rendering  ;)

But jokes aside, an adapter like this can be fabricated at end user cost of $20 or less.  The elusive "dummy" CF to IDE card has been mentioned in this thread before, btw.  I didn't discover it.  But it seems to be discontinued, as I can't find it anywhere.  I've contacted ES&S but haven't heard back from them.  Still, as this is a passive connector, it would be easy to build.  99% of CF to IDE adapters out there are CF readers, but electrically they should be very similar.  The real test lies in the Lycom adapter, which as far as I can tell the only one in its class to support high UDMA modes.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Cityeater on June 09, 2013, 05:04:15 PM
Sorry I know this is redundant but I just saw this and while I'm sure its useless maybe it will stir some creative juices. Perhaps there's a CF card one too.

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Cameras/Memory-Cards/SDSDHC-Cards/WEOL5404G

Its a shame its not as easy as this thing with an extension cable but such is life. 

As always I'm looking forward to a breakthrough in this area, best of luck.


Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 09, 2013, 05:15:43 PM
Sorry I know this is redundant but I just saw this and while I'm sure its useless maybe it will stir some creative juices. Perhaps there's a CF card one too.

http://www.officeworks.com.au/retail/products/Technology/Cameras/Memory-Cards/SDSDHC-Cards/WEOL5404G

Its a shame its not as easy as this thing with an extension cable but such is life. 

As always I'm looking forward to a breakthrough in this area, best of luck.

As described, the Olin Fusion SD/USB combined card reader combines the storage capacity of an SD card with the convenience of an attached USB 2.0. It's of no use to the project but hey ... a little ad is good? :-)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Cityeater on June 09, 2013, 06:36:56 PM
Hah, not so much an ad I'm just romantic about the (false) idea or dream of it being as simple as a cable or adapter. I saw this thing for sale and I just thought I would share it.
SSDs are so cheap now the prospect of spitting RAW to a 480gb drive would probably cover me for most of the drama shooting I do.
I wish I had the technical know how to help. As it is I just have to watch appreciatively from the sideline.
Sorry for the interruption.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 09, 2013, 06:40:45 PM
With existing ML patch allowing us to record raw data to CF card and EDMAC DMA-copy having very high bandwidth (>500MB/sec), it's becoming obvious that it's CF speed that is biggest obstacle in using raw for higher resolutions and/or frame rates.

To circumvent pricey (and often temperamental) CF cards, we need reliable CF-to-SATA transfer interface.

My belief is that such device could be done.

What we need is Bi-Directional converter for serial and parallel ATA that supports UDMA-7 on PATA side. SATA side isn't important as even the lowest speed (rev.1 ) is 150MB/s which is almost as good as UDMA-7 157MB/s.

Quick Google search: here's one for 38 dollars:

http://www.cooldrives.com/saidecomisat1.html

Quick check of specs:
Serial ATA 1.0 Specification compliant
Automatic Serial ATA 1.5 Gbps speed negotiation
ATA / ATAPI PIO mode 0 to 4
ATA / ATAPI Ultra DMA of transfer rate 16.7, 25, 33, 48, 66, 100, 133, and 150MB/s.

It supports UDMA-7 on PATA-side!!!


One thing that is left is to interface IDE to CF slot. Electrical specs should be the same, but physical interface differ.
Thus, we need female "faux CF"-to-PATA passive adapter. I don't know if such exist but I could make one by disassembling old CF card and soldering new lines. :D

Are there any other radio-shack geezers that would like to volunteer for some good-old HW tinkering? ;)

Grunf and fellow hackers/ML supporters: I don't know where we are at this project at this stage with all the promise of finally pushing through with the project. Thanks to all the ideas but I don't know who have actually started to tinker, solder or whatever scrap boards you have in your basement. The excitement was there definitely but who actually own this project, Grunf? Any?

I would like to know who are really serious in pushing through this project. Do the members of ML developer team will render support in case there are software changes to the ML firmware i.e. Device support in cases where the firmware(host) does not recognize(enumerate)
the interface (as a Compact Flash)? Please let me know.

FYI, to push through with the project I ordered this:
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/380396358222?item=380396358222&autorefresh=true

from Ebay. I would like to know if we will have software support from the ML developer team (very important) and the supporters or we are on our own?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 10, 2013, 01:02:49 AM
@g3gg0
As english is not my native language, I'm not sure to understand all what you means. Sorry I the answer is not what you was expecting.

Yes the camera boots but like if there was no card instead.

The adapter is not working in the camera, but works in the computer with Lexar CF usb3 reader. I'm wondering why.
I can't test/check the card outside with ML because the module is impossible to load, err 70, and without module, no card test line in the menu.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 10, 2013, 01:07:16 AM
Is a video could help you?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 01:09:22 AM
Does anyone know if this CF to IDE mapping table will work? Sourcehttp://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39 (http://www.natrium42.com/blog/?p=39)

CF Socket | Pin HDD Pin | Function
1    GND    GND
2    11    D3
3    9    D4
4    7    D5
5    5    D6
6    3    D7
7    37    ~CS0
8    N/C    A10
9    N/C    ~ATA SEL
10    N/C    A9
11    N/C    A8
12    N/C    A7
13    N/C    VCC
14    N/C    A6
15    N/C    A5
16    N/C    A4
17    N/C    A3
18    36    A2
19    33    A1
20    35    A0
21    17    D0
22    15    D1
23    13    D2
24    32    ~IOCS16
25    N/C    ~CD2
26    N/C    ~CD1
27    10    D11
28    12    D12
29    14    D13
30    16    D14
31    18    D15
32    38    ~CS1
33    N/C    ~VS1
34    25    ~IORD
35    23    ~IOWR
36    N/C    ~WE
37    31    INTRQ
38    N/C    VCC
39    28    ~CSEL
40    N/C    ~VS2
41    1    ~RESET
42    27    IORDY
43    21    DMARQ
44    29    ~DMACK
45    39    ~DASP
46    34    ~PDIAG
47    4    D8
48    6    D9
49    8    D10
50    GND    GND

The remaining IDE pins are connected as follows:

GND: 2, 19, 22, 24, 26, 30, 40, 43
VCC: 41, 42
N/C: 20, 44

Should work. Tied pin 9 to ground to act as master, if you left it floating, it's a slave so it will not be recognized.  Before tying to GND make sure it is not tied to VCC. To act as a master it must be tied to GND. WARNING: Caution, if you measure any voltage higher than GND potential, leave it and we'll investigate.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 01:35:00 AM
Hi  g3ggo I've been testing with a CF to ZIF adapter that has IDE, then from IDE to SATA via a converter, then to a Kingston 64gb SSD and WD 160GB HD, my results are :


When Zif/Ide adapter is powered : SSD :

props at : 0x000000000
cbr at :0x00AA304C

When ZIF/IDE adapter is not powered :SSD

props at : 0x000000000
cbr  at:0x00AA311C


When Zif/Ide adapter is powered : WD 160GB HD :

props at : 0x000000000
cbr at :0x00AA30BC

When ZIF/IDE adapter is not powered :WD 160GB HD

props at : 0x000000000
cbr  at:0x00AA2F8C

So it looks like the camera is seeing the devices, time for some dirty hacks to enable the camera to really use them now ;)


I also tried also to get windows to see all the above by using a USB CF card reader it didn't see anything, and the active light didn't light up on the reader.

I'm not trying to discourage you but a "CF-TO-IDE-TO-SATA", is not the right approach. Another member "Pascalc" was the better approach I think. Just a CF-HHD adapter, for the simple reason explain in COMPACT FLASH SPECIFICATIONS as stated:
"4.2 Electrical Description
The CompactFlash Storage Card functions in three basic modes: 1) PC Card ATA using I/O Mode, 2) PC Card ATA using Memory Mode and 3) True IDE Mode, which is compatible with most disk drives. CompactFlash Storage Cards are required to support all three modes. The CF+ Cards normally function in the first and second modes, however they can optionally function in True IDE mode. The configuration of the CompactFlash Card shall be controlled using the standard PCMCIA configuration registers starting at address 200h in the Attribute Memory space of the storage card or for True IDE Mode, pin 9 being grounded. The configuration of the CF+ Card shall be controlled using configuration registers starting at the address defined in the Configuration Tuple (CISTPL_CONFIG) in the Attribute Memory space of the CF+ Card."

If you want more information, here's the link: http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/cfspc3_0.pdf

I'm just steering you in the right direction. Mentioned CF-TO-IDE or CF-TO-SATA adapters would not work too as those adapters function to use a Compact Flash as a replacement to HDD or SATA. Our goal is the other way around, use a HDD as a replacement to CF. HDD to SATA is the next goal, and I don't know if it is viable... IDE SSD maybe as they have faster speed that HD speed. I would encourage you to contemplate on the CF ZIP-HDD. Make sure pin 9 on the IDE pin is grounded to act as a master, if left floating it will act as a slave and it will not be recognized at all.  Before tying to GND make sure it is not tied to VCC. To act as a master it must be tied to GND. WARNING: Caution, if you measure any voltage higher than GND potential, leave it and we'll investigate. Good luck and good work. Keep on hacking, I can see the light. Just clarifying guys.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 01:40:57 AM
Intentional... a mistake
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 02:21:44 AM
@g3gg0
As english is not my native language, I'm not sure to understand all what you means. Sorry I the answer is not what you was expecting.

Yes the camera boots but like if there was no card instead.

The adapter is not working in the camera, but works in the computer with Lexar CF usb3 reader. I'm wondering why.
I can't test/check the card outside with ML because the module is impossible to load, err 70, and without module, no card test line in the menu.

Pascalc, on your IDE connector, is pin 9 left floating? Measure it with a voltmeter, check the other CF side too, if it is floating, then it is configured as a slave. Before tying to GND make sure it is not tied to VCC. To act as a master it must be tied to GND. WARNING: Caution, if you measure any voltage higher than GND potential, leave it and we'll investigate.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Redrocks on June 10, 2013, 05:25:30 AM
I'm sure the coders will work with you Albert, but they are being pulled in every direction at the moment trying to refine the basic raw code.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 10, 2013, 06:48:36 AM
Pascalc, on your IDE connector, is pin 9 left floating? Measure it with a voltmeter, check the other CF side too, if it is floating, then it is configured as a slave. Before tying to GND make sure it is not tied to VCC. To act as a master it must be tied to GND. WARNING: Caution, if you measure any voltage higher than GND potential, leave it and we'll investigate.

Am I missing something here?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe pin 9 is the master/slave select.

Pin 9 on the CF connector is ~ATA SEL, should be grounded by the host during power up to enable True IDE mode (i.e. to inform the CF Card that it's now in IDE mode).  I would not recommend grounding this on your adapter, as it would potentially load up the pin should the host try to set it high.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 10, 2013, 06:58:12 AM
Pin 39 on the CF connector is ~CSEL for Master/Slave select, however this is fed through from the CF host to the IDE device so I wouldn't imagine you need to manually set this.

Also a drive configured with jumpers should ignore the state of this line regardless.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 10, 2013, 11:14:55 AM
As I touched the limits of my (small) competences (I'm just a documentary filmmaker) I talked to an electronic company able to make prototypes. They say that what we are trying to do is possible but they need the exact electrical specs of the cf host in 5D3. Do someone know where to find that ?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 01:58:27 PM
Am I missing something here?  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe pin 9 is the master/slave select.

Pin 9 on the CF connector is ~ATA SEL, should be grounded by the host during power up to enable True IDE mode (i.e. to inform the CF Card that it's now in IDE mode).  I would not recommend grounding this on your adapter, as it would potentially load up the pin should the host try to set it high.

Yes, you are right "Moog", I meant to say pin 39 (CSEL) not pin 9 (ASEL). It usually the host responsibility that this input pin is at low potential (GND) in TRUE IDE mode. As stated in 4.2 of CF Specifications: "The configuration of the CompactFlash Card shall be controlled using the standard PCMCIA configuration registers starting at address 200h in the Attribute Memory space of the storage card or for True IDE Mode, pin 9 being grounded."

Thanks for correcting me.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 02:07:56 PM
Pin 39 on the CF connector is ~CSEL for Master/Slave select, however this is fed through from the CF host to the IDE device so I wouldn't imagine you need to manually set this.

Also a drive configured with jumpers should ignore the state of this line regardless.

See my previous post. Thanks.

I just want to clarify something here. This project must be thoroughly planned and thought out, it is not "trivial" as it seems to be. It is a complicated project if pushed through. That is why, this project has to have some backing of people who have the knowledge and experience, like, the ML developer team...combined together they have all experiences (> 100 years experience) in their own fields of expertise: photography, software, electronics engineers and specialist. I hope to clarify these matters. That's all I'm saying. If we need answers, we share our experiences with others. Thanks ML team and supporters. But it can be done. May the force be with you. I remain.

Now, my question "Moog", in the Canon/ML firmware does the CF functions as a TRUE IDE mode (as a Compact Flash storage card) as in CF specifications, as you and the others expected?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 10, 2013, 03:42:22 PM
this:

i already expected this result.
the last few days i read a lot about CF card specification and reversed the parts of the camera that interact with CF.
i think i have a plan what we would have to patch to make it working.

1. CF is reset
2. CIS structure is read and parsed (needs to be patched)
 - RotatingDeviceInfo
 - MakerAndVersionTuple
 - ConfigurationTuple
 - WriteProtectTuple
3. Reconfigures the card for I/O Mapped Operation Mode (needs to be patched)
4. partition table is read and checked for 0x55AA at the end
5. first partition is checked for a supported type (1,4,5,6,7,B,C,E)
6. device is available


which camera model do you use?

can you run this plugin with your disk attached?
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36699#msg36699
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 04:30:30 PM
this:

Ah, Okay, I missed that one. The path firmware was for 5D3 cameras.? I'll try it when my Canon 50D (was there a parallel patch firmware for 50D too?) arrives and this arrives, http://www.ebay.ca/itm/380396358222?item=380396358222&autorefresh=true. I have a Canon 60D and a Canon 7D, I know there are limitations on these cameras. 5D3 is out of reach for me at this time. I would like a stable raw 1270x720 unlimited frames on Canon 50D. That's the goal too?

To those members who have interests in this, try the it (the patch) with the camera, 5D3, I think?. And report back to the forum, this would be very, very helpful in terms of pushing through with this project. Your dreams are mine too. :-)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 10, 2013, 04:46:54 PM
@g3gg0 - I will test it tomorrow with 5D3 and give Feedback!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on June 10, 2013, 07:43:25 PM
Hey everyone, I just jumped on the 5D3 RAW wagon too!  Anyways, I just wanted to let you know I got my guys in China looking for that CF>IDE adapter.  If they can find it or make it I'll let you guys know. 
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 10, 2013, 09:12:34 PM
@g3gg0 - I will test it tomorrow with 5D3 and give Feedback!

Great, looking forward to your feedback.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 10, 2013, 10:01:15 PM
okay cool.

it is important that the adapter will behave like a CF card by providing CIS structure and accepting IDE commands.
the ATA_SEL pin isnt asserted - ATA commands are issued through some mapping.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mogs on June 10, 2013, 10:11:44 PM
See my previous post. Thanks.

I just want to clarify something here. This project must be thoroughly planned and thought out, it is not "trivial" as it seems to be.<snip>

Now, my question "Moog", in the Canon/ML firmware does the CF functions as a TRUE IDE mode (as a Compact Flash storage card) as in CF specifications, as you and the others expected?

Just so I'm understood; I'm not "expecting" anything here, I'm also not a developer (although I did contribute some code a long time ago).  I do however have experience in electronics design.  I find this project fascinating but my expectations are not unrealistic.

I'm just looking at the problem and making contributions as they come up, not everything I have contributed is in the right direction but I am very careful to qualify my statements when I am unsure of something.  Over the past few days my understanding of the situation has increased greatly, your comments have challenged me to push that further to make sure we're all moving down the right path.

As to your question I'm not able to answer that as I don't have a CF capable camera, but careful observation of pin 9 (~ATA SEL) and 38 (VCC) by someone who does may shed some light on this.  If ~ATA SEL is held low during power up of the card socket then it is in True IDE mode.  This may happen at a different time to the camera power, as it's also possible to power down the CF socket while holding ~ATA SEL low to reconfigure a CF card into IDE mode.

I think g3gg0 may have answered this question better as I'm typing my reply.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 10, 2013, 11:11:21 PM
Give me three weeks and you will all be very happy people :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: heavygrafix on June 11, 2013, 01:05:18 AM
Give me three weeks and you will all be very happy people :)

we´ll
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 11, 2013, 01:18:47 AM
Just so I'm understood; I'm not "expecting" anything here, I'm also not a developer (although I did contribute some code a long time ago).  I do however have experience in electronics design.  I find this project fascinating but my expectations are not unrealistic.

I'm just looking at the problem and making contributions as they come up, not everything I have contributed is in the right direction but I am very careful to qualify my statements when I am unsure of something.  Over the past few days my understanding of the situation has increased greatly, your comments have challenged me to push that further to make sure we're all moving down the right path.

As to your question I'm not able to answer that as I don't have a CF capable camera, but careful observation of pin 9 (~ATA SEL) and 38 (VCC) by someone who does may shed some light on this.  If ~ATA SEL is held low during power up of the card socket then it is in True IDE mode.  This may happen at a different time to the camera power, as it's also possible to power down the CF socket while holding ~ATA SEL low to reconfigure a CF card into IDE mode.

I think g3gg0 may have answered this question better as I'm typing my reply.

We'll all excited about this. "Two heads are better than one", they say... but even better with many rebel heads. :-)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on June 11, 2013, 02:21:18 AM
Give me three weeks and you will all be very happy people :)

Let's GOOO   ;D
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 11, 2013, 02:57:30 AM
Not to be so illusive on my earlier statement, but the engineer I hired for this task has successfully transferred a Hello World file from his computer to an SSD via a USB CF reader.  The interface goes 1.8" Half Slim SATA, 22PIN TO 1.8" CE/ZIF converter board > 40pin 1.8" CE / ZIF SSD HDD to 1.8"  CF 50pin converter adapter...or the other way around. Not too sure, as Im just the financier :P

Anyways, I am currently designing an all-in-one system that would be similar to what you'd see with a field recorder. We're going to be launching our KickStarter once the final prototype has been thoroughly tested. Still waiting on a few parts from China, but things are looking EXTREMELY positive from the information I'm getting from my developer.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 11, 2013, 04:17:30 AM
Not to be so illusive on my earlier statement, but the engineer I hired for this task has successfully transferred a Hello World file from his computer to an SSD via a USB CF reader.  The interface goes 1.8" Half Slim SATA, 22PIN TO 1.8" CE/ZIF converter board > 40pin 1.8" CE / ZIF SSD HDD to 1.8"  CF 50pin converter adapter...or the other way around. Not too sure, as Im just the financier :P

Anyways, I am currently designing an all-in-one system that would be similar to what you'd see with a field recorder. We're going to be launching our KickStarter once the final prototype has been thoroughly tested. Still waiting on a few parts from China, but things are looking EXTREMELY positive from the information I'm getting from my developer.

I think there are such peripherals already if I'm not mistaken. Like this: http://www.amazon.ca/Startech-Com-1-8-Inch-Enclosure-SAT1810U2-Silver/dp/B003V4TVB6

Direct SATA, no conversion. However, but I don't know what your project was. So,  I'll consider buying one if needed.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 11, 2013, 04:31:14 AM
I think there are such peripherals already if I'm not mistaken. Like this: http://www.amazon.ca/Startech-Com-1-8-Inch-Enclosure-SAT1810U2-Silver/dp/B003V4TVB6

Direct SATA, no conversion. However, but I don't know what your project was. So,  I'll consider buying one if needed.

That device is nothing like what we're working on. When I said USB CF reader, I was implying something to emulate the CF port on a camera:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002PXLQSK/ref=oh_details_o01_s00_i01?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: akiesels on June 11, 2013, 10:06:06 AM
I heard back from the ES&S Cable folks. 

They are on it!  Check out their double-headed CF cable solution.  It's quite ingenuous: nothing but one-to-one wire mapping.  And then you're free to use your CF card reader of choice (there are tons of these, of course) and connect it to an IDE -> SATA adapter.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropboxusercontent.com%2Fu%2F6723747%2FCF-to-SATA.jpg&hash=4e1a2846f2fa502f9643c11f4a78ee6e)

If the camera's CF host controller is confirmed to operate in IDE mode, this setup should work without ML software, correct?  In other words, if one were to plug this into their camera and start it normally (with stock Canon firmware), one should be able to format the harddrive and use it to store stills and record H.264 video.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Alexander
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 11, 2013, 11:13:46 AM
I heard back from the ES&S Cable folks. 

They are on it!  Check out their double-headed CF cable solution.  It's quite ingenuous: nothing but one-to-one wire mapping.  And then you're free to use your CF card reader of choice (there are tons of these, of course) and connect it to an IDE -> SATA adapter.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fdl.dropboxusercontent.com%2Fu%2F6723747%2FCF-to-SATA.jpg&hash=4e1a2846f2fa502f9643c11f4a78ee6e)

If the camera's CF host controller is confirmed to operate in IDE mode, this setup should work without ML software, correct?  In other words, if one were to plug this into their camera and start it normally (with stock Canon firmware), one should be able to format the harddrive and use it to store stills and record H.264 video.  Please correct me if I am wrong.

Alexander

A quick test would be to connect this setup to a USB memory reader and verify if it is enumerated (recognized) as a removable media on a laptop in a Mac or a PC.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on June 11, 2013, 01:22:36 PM
Hopefully these set ups work and then someone can build it into a battery-grip type of device that will screw onto the bottom of the camera and connect into the CF card slot.  It would be really cool if not only you could plug a SSD/HDD into it, but also 2 batteries for the camera.  So it would be like a battery grip/HDD interface in one.  That would be the ultimate setup 8)  Sounds like a PITA to design though.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 11, 2013, 01:25:12 PM
ES&S Kabel should just make the right-side CF card (in the photo) into a box of some sort, and put IDE to SATAII circuitry in it, using the ARC772 IC which can support 200MBps, as well as a SATA port. Then instead of using the flat ribbon cable, use a rounded ribbon cable.

If they can't (or won't), then we can just get a CF to SATAII adapter, and skip the extra CF to IDE adapter step. Like that Lycom ST106-2 device.

We should also petition Canon to put a CFast slot in their next camera, lol.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 02:28:22 PM
Hey guys,

yesterday, i got from Esscable the setup on the picture above for testing purposes.
Big Props to them, they did a really good job and are very interested in further development  8).

So know we can start - but i need your help, too!

Momently I got following things on my desk for the big testing setup:

- 5D Mark III
- Lexar USB 3.0 Cardreader
- Esscable CF Extender female-to-female
- Esscable CF Male to IDE female adapter
- Esscable IDE Male to SATA Converter
- CF Extender from Calexium/ France
- CF male to IDE female adapter
- OWC Mercury Legacy Pro 2.5 IDE/ PATA SSD 60 GB
- Seagate Barracuda 2TB SATA
- 2x 2.5 HDD Adapter - 2.5 to 3.5 IDE Adapters with power support
- IDE Cable
- CF 1000x Komputerbay 32GB
- SD Card 32 GB Sandisk
- Power Supply

I have the possibility to solder an individual cable. I have naked cf-female ports and 50 pole 0,635 cable. Therefore it is very useful to have a cf-ide mapping.  sb. should know that!?! Until the end of the week i will get an old canon cam with cf, so we can test - and my 5DMIII won´t explode  ;D.

*** First testing setup! CF to SATA

What I first tried is the esscable setup - because they told me they tried it and it works for them.
USB-Card-Reader connecting to my MacBook. Don´t work.
When I get the CF Extender in the cam instead of mac - Nothing happend - no possibility to start the cam - (only in IDE the cam said can´t format the camera, unsupported drive)

*** Second Testing setup with IDE:

Esscable cf- extender to esscable cf- to ide to ssd with ide cable adapter- powersupply from pc.
Camera said after loading about 5-8 seconds - during no lights are blinking - 

No access to card1 - new card insertion or replacement or format with camera.
-> Formatting Impossible - change card!

When I connect the setup over Lexxar card reader OWC (exFat formated) will be connected.

*** The cf-acc plugin don´t save a VRAMx.BMP File! How can i get this to work!

When I push "Read CF details (MAY CAUSE ERR)" the cam is doing sth. because light is blinking every 5 sec. until camera went off.

 





Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on June 11, 2013, 02:47:52 PM
Hey Guys,

I just got word back from china, and my guy found those CF adapters, but he wrote me asking:

"OK, I able find one in china.
I want confirm you need.
It's IDE host to CF disk?
CF host to IDE disk?
CF host to SATA disk?
IDE host to SATA disk?
Just tell me you want ,clearly."

Which one do we need guys?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 11, 2013, 02:56:10 PM
Hey guys,

yesterday, i got from Esscable the setup on the picture above for testing purposes.
Big Props to them, they did a really good job and are very interested in further development  8).

So know we can start - but i need your help, too!

Momently I got following things on my desk for the big testing setup:

- 5D Mark III
- Lexar USB 3.0 Cardreader
- Esscable CF Extender female-to-female
- Esscable CF Male to IDE female adapter
- Esscable IDE Male to SATA Converter
- CF Extender from Calexium/ France
- CF male to IDE female adapter
- OWC Mercury Legacy Pro 2.5 IDE/ PATA SSD 60 GB
- Seagate Barracuda 2TB SATA
- 2x 2.5 HDD Adapter - 2.5 to 3.5 IDE Adapters with power support
- IDE Cable
- CF 1000x Komputerbay 32GB
- SD Card 32 GB Sandisk
- Power Supply

I have the possibility to solder an individual cable. I have naked cf-female ports and 50 pole 0,635 cable. Therefore it is very useful to have a cf-ide mapping.  sb. should know that!?! Until the end of the week i will get an old canon cam with cf, so we can test - and my 5DMIII won´t explode  ;D.

*** First testing setup! CF to SATA

What I first tried is the esscable setup - because they told me they tried it and it works for them.
USB-Card-Reader connecting to my MacBook. Don´t work.
When I get the CF Extender in the cam instead of mac - Nothing happend - no possibility to start the cam - (only in IDE the cam said can´t format the camera, unsupported drive)

*** Second Testing setup with IDE:

Esscable cf- extender to esscable cf- to ide to ssd with ide cable adapter- powersupply from pc.
Camera said after loading about 5-8 seconds - during no lights are blinking - 

No access to card1 - new card insertion or replacement or format with camera.
-> Formatting Impossible - change card!

When I connect the setup over Lexxar card reader OWC (exFat formated) will be connected.

*** The cf-acc plugin don´t save a VRAMx.BMP File! How can i get this to work!

When I push "Read CF details (MAY CAUSE ERR)" the cam is doing sth. because light is blinking every 5 sec. until camera went off.

With the IDE hard drive, is it set to Master, Slave or Cable Select? If it is master, try cable select, and vice versa. That is the only thing I can think of going wrong with this option. Maybe try a different IDE drive?

As for your IDE to SATA adapter, which one specifically is it?

Is it this one > http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/12/ ?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 11, 2013, 02:57:47 PM
Hey Guys,

I just got word back from china, and my guy found those CF adapters, but he wrote me asking:

"OK, I able find one in china.
I want confirm you need.
It's IDE host to CF disk?
CF host to IDE disk?
CF host to SATA disk?
IDE host to SATA disk?
Just tell me you want ,clearly."

Which one do we need guys?

CF host to IDE disk, or CF host to SATA disk.

I would get one of each, if the SATA one doesn't work, than the IDE one would be the fall back device.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 11, 2013, 03:08:28 PM
Hey guys,

yesterday, i got from Esscable the setup on the picture above for testing purposes.
Big Props to them, they did a really good job and are very interested in further development  8).

So know we can start - but i need your help, too!

Momently I got following things on my desk for the big testing setup:

- 5D Mark III
- Lexar USB 3.0 Cardreader
- Esscable CF Extender female-to-female
- Esscable CF Male to IDE female adapter
- Esscable IDE Male to SATA Converter
- CF Extender from Calexium/ France
- CF male to IDE female adapter
- OWC Mercury Legacy Pro 2.5 IDE/ PATA SSD 60 GB
- Seagate Barracuda 2TB SATA
- 2x 2.5 HDD Adapter - 2.5 to 3.5 IDE Adapters with power support
- IDE Cable
- CF 1000x Komputerbay 32GB
- SD Card 32 GB Sandisk
- Power Supply

I have the possibility to solder an individual cable. I have naked cf-female ports and 50 pole 0,635 cable. Therefore it is very useful to have a cf-ide mapping.  sb. should know that!?! Until the end of the week i will get an old canon cam with cf, so we can test - and my 5DMIII won´t explode  ;D.

*** First testing setup! CF to SATA

What I first tried is the esscable setup - because they told me they tried it and it works for them.
USB-Card-Reader connecting to my MacBook. Don´t work.
When I get the CF Extender in the cam instead of mac - Nothing happend - no possibility to start the cam - (only in IDE the cam said can´t format the camera, unsupported drive)

*** Second Testing setup with IDE:

Esscable cf- extender to esscable cf- to ide to ssd with ide cable adapter- powersupply from pc.
Camera said after loading about 5-8 seconds - during no lights are blinking - 

No access to card1 - new card insertion or replacement or format with camera.
-> Formatting Impossible - change card!

When I connect the setup over Lexxar card reader OWC (exFat formated) will be connected.

*** The cf-acc plugin don´t save a VRAMx.BMP File! How can i get this to work!

When I push "Read CF details (MAY CAUSE ERR)" the cam is doing sth. because light is blinking every 5 sec. until camera went off.

I suggest to testing setup! CF to IDE. Before you connect the drive to the CF Extender to camera:
1. Format the drive to FAT32.
2. insert Cf extender to camera, make sure Cf slot door switch is defeated or cheated to look as though the CF slot is closed.
3. Wait for boot process, wait for ML: Select Debug: Read CF details, NB: Notice of any return bytes if successful. If not, back to the drawing board. Report to ML developer for any software interface patch.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 03:12:57 PM
With the IDE hard drive, is it set to Master, Slave or Cable Select? If it is master, try cable select, and vice versa. That is the only thing I can think of going wrong with this option. Maybe try a different IDE drive?

As for your IDE to SATA adapter, which one specifically is it?

Is it this one > http://en.esskabel.de/adapter/datasheet/ada-sata-ii-ide40-ly/12/ ?

I tried every jumper setup - no access!
The IDE-SATA looks different but i think its the same...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 11, 2013, 03:18:49 PM
Hey Guys,

I just got word back from china, and my guy found those CF adapters, but he wrote me asking:

"OK, I able find one in china.
I want confirm you need.
It's IDE host to CF disk?
CF host to IDE disk?
CF host to SATA disk?
IDE host to SATA disk?
Just tell me you want ,clearly."

Which one do we need guys?

I think it is the IDE host to CF. The CF host to IDE, functions to plug into a IDE system and use the CF(used as boot device) as a drive (IDE emulation). To be sure, tell your buyer your requirements and read the technical description and specification of each before deciding to buy.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 11, 2013, 03:25:19 PM
the camera is *not* using true IDE mode.
but i hope to be able to hack it so it will only send ATA commands.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 04:00:22 PM
I suggest to testing setup! CF to IDE. Before you connect the drive to the CF Extender to camera:
1. Format the drive to FAT32.
2. insert Cf extender to camera, make sure Cf slot door switch is defeated or cheated to look as though the CF slot is closed.
3. Wait for boot process, wait for ML: Select Debug: Read CF details, NB: Notice of any return bytes if successful. If not, back to the drawing board. Report to ML developer for any software interface patch.

Did what you write. Camera says:
No access to card1 - new card insertion or replacement or format with camera.
-> Formatting Impossible - change card!

Debug impossible - cam says again - No access to card1 - new card insertion or replacement or format with camera.
-> Formatting Impossible - change card!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 04:02:57 PM
the camera is *not* using true IDE mode.
but i hope to be able to hack it so it will only send ATA commands.

That would be awesome  - yes you can!  8) Do you know why canon avoid true IDE mode?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 04:10:16 PM
When I switch off camera and remove cf extender shut down - start it again with only sd card shut down - start again with cf card it graphicaly signals in live view that two cards are there with the 1 and 2 Symbol - But Debugging isn´t possible - after pressing set the graphical live view signal disapear and i can only see the full screen view...

I think there must be the possibility to get an electrical solution by new mapping cf to ide, too. But Software is smarter!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 04:23:22 PM
the camera is *not* using true IDE mode.
but i hope to be able to hack it so it will only send ATA commands.

Do you know which mode it uses?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 11, 2013, 05:53:52 PM
this: ;)
this:

i already expected this result.
the last few days i read a lot about CF card specification and reversed the parts of the camera that interact with CF.
i think i have a plan what we would have to patch to make it working.

1. CF is reset
2. CIS structure is read and parsed (needs to be patched)
 - RotatingDeviceInfo
 - MakerAndVersionTuple
 - ConfigurationTuple
 - WriteProtectTuple
3. Reconfigures the card for I/O Mapped Operation Mode (needs to be patched)
4. partition table is read and checked for 0x55AA at the end
5. first partition is checked for a supported type (1,4,5,6,7,B,C,E)
6. device is available


which camera model do you use?

can you run this plugin with your disk attached?
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36699#msg36699
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: driftwood on June 11, 2013, 06:29:23 PM
This is looking pretty darn hopeful. Add a portable rechargeable Lithium-Polymer battery powered 2.5" SSD /drive or a Atamos style drive caddy. You can have this atamos ninja if it will help - rip it apart and experiment. pm me if its of use.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 11, 2013, 07:32:39 PM
the camera is *not* using true IDE mode.
but i hope to be able to hack it so it will only send ATA commands.

How do you verify this, did you check to see if Pin 9 is being held low when the camera is turned on?

There are only 2 other modes it could be running in, IO Transfer or Common Memory.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 11, 2013, 08:14:14 PM
Did what you write. Camera says:
No access to card1 - new card insertion or replacement or format with camera.
-> Formatting Impossible - change card!

Debug impossible - cam says again - No access to card1 - new card insertion or replacement or format with camera.
-> Formatting Impossible - change card!

Hey, that's success. It's communicating. Now if only the CF slot was in TRUE IDE mode in the firmware. But it's a darn good news. It means your interface setup is equipped and ready to go all the way. Good job!

Now we wait for "g3gg0" to do his magic. (1) Enable CF slot to TRUE IDE mode, (2) identify the device as ATA. That's all we want to accomplish,a quick test. Simple request but to get to that it's really not trivial. Back to you guys, "g3gg0". May the force be with you.It's a good day.:-)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 09:00:18 PM
After a few more test i think 5d killed the fat32 filesystem of the ssd - for a short moment i thought it was recording on ssd!
Because there was no medium error on card1.
Connecting to mac with usb reader it cant see the ssd and wants to initialise the ssd new.
While Deleting and new initialisation with disk recovery following error occured:

Impossible to write on the last block of the device. Something happend!???
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 11, 2013, 09:54:22 PM
How do you verify this, did you check to see if Pin 9 is being held low when the camera is turned on?

There are only 2 other modes it could be running in, IO Transfer or Common Memory.
no, i reverse engineered the software.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 11, 2013, 09:54:53 PM
Impossible to write on the last block of the device. Something happend!???

thats with the patch, right?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 10:05:15 PM
you mean cf_acc - if so yes. What does it mean?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 11, 2013, 10:09:55 PM
Filesystem is working again - I tried a MBR Partition instead of a GUID Partition Table but with no access. After configuring the parallel record option in canon firmware and restart the camera - there was no card1 error occured., When i hit record the cam was short peeping and something was on display i couldnt read (maybe a failure message in blue writing) because it was very fast upnaway..., Nothing get recorded...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 12, 2013, 08:06:24 AM
no, i reverse engineered the software.

Could you be more specific? Maybe more people can help?

I've been looking through the ML source code and I can't find anything for setting CF modes.

Which got me to realize that the CF subsystem has to set the card mode prior to the ML firmware even being read.

So this means that what would happen is ML would be read, the CF card would need to be "unmounted", the CF mode would need to be changed (if that is even possible in software), and then then CF card would need to be remounted, or something along those lines. Roughly speaking.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 12, 2013, 09:38:11 AM
no. canon firmware is initializing the CF controller and reading/setting stuff.
i reverse engineered the camera firmware to find out how the firmware works.

this is not part of ML, so there is no source code.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: rudi on June 12, 2013, 11:54:26 AM
just to think of:
CF-Standard below 5.0 can only adress max 256GB, and and there are no bigger CF-cards on the market than 128GB, so make shure your attached drive is not bigger than that and does not use  48-bit addressing...

but probably you all are aware of this.

just 2 cents

rudi
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 12, 2013, 12:56:11 PM
canon firmware supports 48 bit addressing. at least they seem to handle it as it is intended to.
still not sure if all filesystem drivers support that.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hini on June 12, 2013, 01:51:08 PM
Hint for the developers.
In the early days CF cards had built-in harddrives inside.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fupload.wikimedia.org%2Fwikipedia%2Fen%2Fthumb%2F6%2F6c%2FMicroHDD.jpg%2F320px-MicroHDD.jpg&hash=4e35480a936863c625858b4c1ddfc5a8)
They were called microdrives.

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive)

If you open these devices maybe it helps to understand how things work.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 12, 2013, 03:21:59 PM
microdrives are not supported by canon firmware ;)
electrically it is easier to read the specs and public adapter schematics, at least for me
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grey_Sally on June 12, 2013, 03:38:14 PM
Microdrives are supported by (at least up to) 5D ii -- say the official Canon specs, I don't actually have a MD to test it out with. 5D iii doesn't, but then surely this is more likely to be simply because it doesn't support Type II CF (presumably to allow more space for the SD slot) rather than deliberate crippling or moving to a different communication protocol (?)...

...yes, I'm aware that I used the word 'likely' :-D but even so, may be worth testing this on the 5D ii ?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 12, 2013, 03:41:55 PM
microdrives are not supported by canon firmware ;)
electrically it is easier to read the specs and public adapter schematics, at least for me

On another subject, software interface on CF:
1. On your software patch, is pin 9 (ASEL), is an input, in ATA mode and when enabled to TRUE IDE mode, is it always held LOW at this mode.? It will help with people who are debugging their setup to pinout(scope out) this pin and check.
2. What do we expect (in debug, READ CF or identify device)? Are their return bytes we expect for fail or good? Or just a helpful message?

It would help testers to look for return bytes so we can analyze the errors. Thanks.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: yoclay on June 12, 2013, 04:40:18 PM
microdrives are not supported by canon firmware ;)
electrically it is easier to read the specs and public adapter schematics, at least for me

Microdrives cannot be used on the 5D Mark III.  The card slot is not wide enough.
Whether this actually means that the protocol is also not valid is another quesiton.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on June 12, 2013, 06:21:07 PM
Filesystem is working again - I tried a MBR Partition instead of a GUID Partition Table but with no access. After configuring the parallel record option in canon firmware and restart the camera - there was no card1 error occured., When i hit record the cam was short peeping and something was on display i couldnt read (maybe a failure message in blue writing) because it was very fast upnaway..., Nothing get recorded...

Hi,

Do you hava PC? I would recommend following: Format a working CF card in camera, connect to computer and use a partitioning software (Partition Magic or similar) to copy complete partition from CF  to your HDD as-is.
Also,  avoid trying to record RAW to begin with (in case your HDD cannot swallow 90MB/sec).

Regards,
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 12, 2013, 06:45:16 PM
Hi,

Do you hava PC? I would recommend following: Format a working CF card in camera, connect to computer and use a partitioning software (Partition Magic or similar) to copy complete partition from CF  to your HDD as-is.
Also,  avoid trying to record RAW to begin with (in case your HDD cannot swallow 90MB/sec).

Regards,

Good advice.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deleted.acct.20132206 on June 12, 2013, 06:48:37 PM
Hi,

Do you hava PC? I would recommend following: Format a working CF card in camera, connect to computer and use a partitioning software (Partition Magic or similar) to copy complete partition from CF  to your HDD as-is.
Also,  avoid trying to record RAW to begin with (in case your HDD cannot swallow 90MB/sec).

Regards,

Good idea Grunf- i will try tomorrow. MY OWC PATA SSD should be faster than 90MB/sec!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 12, 2013, 07:22:49 PM
Microdrives are supported by (at least up to) 5D ii -- say the official Canon specs, I don't actually have a MD to test it out with. 5D iii doesn't, but then surely this is more likely to be simply because it doesn't support Type II CF (presumably to allow more space for the SD slot) rather than deliberate crippling or moving to a different communication protocol (?)...

...yes, I'm aware that I used the word 'likely' :-D but even so, may be worth testing this on the 5D ii ?

on 5D3 not:
  v15 = (char *)&"Microdrive is Not Supported";
  v16 = 5;
LABEL_17:
  DryosDebugMsg(0x22, v16, v15);
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 12, 2013, 07:50:23 PM
On another subject, software interface on CF:
1. On your software patch, is pin 9 (ASEL), is an input, in ATA mode and when enabled to TRUE IDE mode, is it always held LOW at this mode.? It will help with people who are debugging their setup to pinout(scope out) this pin and check.
2. What do we expect (in debug, READ CF or identify device)? Are their return bytes we expect for fail or good? Or just a helpful message?

It would help testers to look for return bytes so we can analyze the errors. Thanks.

1) my patch only changes the commands sent to card during startup.
the CIS is no longer required, also every device connected is accepted as storage device, even if it is no such.
also the command that changes to mapped mode is skipped.
ATA_SEL is not changed. i didnt measure anything, as i dont have any extender or adapter.

2) when you run the menu entry, you should see what disk it is and a lot drive details
see: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36588#msg36588

if you have an adapter and live in germany, you can send it to me.
then i will dig deeper into it and maybe attach my scope at work.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on June 12, 2013, 08:51:34 PM
Just a hit from my developer to others working on this project: Dont develop a CF adapter that works with Canon cameras. Develop a CF adapter that works with ANY device. So far he has tested his interface in a USB CF reader/writer, a Korg audio interface, a Roland SDPS synth pad, and a few other periphs. Im sending him a busted 5D3 from China to test it out in-camera. Updates to follow.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 12, 2013, 09:40:04 PM
@g3gg0
As I'm in France I can send you mine if it can help - (this one : http://store.calexium.com/fr/316-prolongateur-compact-flash-29-cm.html)
I give up trying I'm not enough skilled.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 13, 2013, 04:09:00 AM
1) my patch only changes the commands sent to card during startup.
the CIS is no longer required, also every device connected is accepted as storage device, even if it is no such.
also the command that changes to mapped mode is skipped.
ATA_SEL is not changed. i didnt measure anything, as i dont have any extender or adapter.

2) when you run the menu entry, you should see what disk it is and a lot drive details
see: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5471.msg36588#msg36588

if you have an adapter and live in germany, you can send it to me.
then i will dig deeper into it and maybe attach my scope at work.

It okay g3gg0, I checked the CF spec.(Software Interface) and ASEL changes during a read/write operation.
My burning questions though are "(1) my patch only changes the commands sent to card during startup."  AS I understand, during a startup you send 0xEC (IDENTIFY DEVICE) command after enabling TRUE IDE mode.? What is the command to enable the TRUE IDE mode? I was searching at the CF spec v3.0.  and it seems that I can't find it?

Thanks.

NB: IDENTIFY DEVICE return bytes
Word 0: General Configuration
This field indicates that the device is a CompactFlashTM Storage Card. Note to host implementers: If Word 0 of the Identify drive information is 848Ah then the device complies with the CFA specification, not with the ATA-x specification.

....
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 17, 2013, 03:58:15 PM
Just a followup on this thread, are there any hints, suggestions or continuing with any testing on these ideas? Is the flame still burning?

Just a thought...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 17, 2013, 04:50:38 PM
AS I understand, during a startup you send 0xEC (IDENTIFY DEVICE) command after enabling TRUE IDE mode.? What is the command to enable the TRUE IDE mode? I was searching at the CF spec v3.0.  and it seems that I can't find it?

no, i expected that there is an IDE drive being attached, no CF device.
so selecting any ATA mode or anything is pointless, as it is ATA by default.

only CF cards would need the ATA pin being asserted to run in true IDE mode.
Canon isnt using this feature as far i can tell from the source code, but they use the remap comand as described above.
this way sending ATA commands is done using an address in the card address space.

i didnt understand the thing you wrote about IDENTIFY DRIVE.. was this a question?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 17, 2013, 06:56:24 PM
no, i expected that there is an IDE drive being attached, no CF device.
so selecting any ATA mode or anything is pointless, as it is ATA by default.

only CF cards would need the ATA pin being asserted to run in true IDE mode.
Canon isnt using this feature as far i can tell from the source code, but they use the remap comand as described above.
this way sending ATA commands is done using an address in the card address space.

i didnt understand the thing you wrote about IDENTIFY DRIVE.. was this a question?

We're clear on that: "no, i expected that there is an IDE drive being attached, no CF device."

That is a read status command, IDENTIFY DEVICE (0xE0). We just want to know the return bytes:
"If Word 0 of the Identify drive information is 848Ah then the device complies with the CFA specification, NOT with the ATA-x specification."

That means, if we read 848Ah, our test interface is not recognized as ATA drive.

I have my used Canon 50D(received it today,yi...pee!) and all I'm still waiting for my CF card extender (plugs into the camera CF slot). So, I'm just curious if the idea is still hot or cold. It's been quiet for a while. :-)

Do you have the software patch for Canon 50D that you had for 5D3, for testing our interface on Canon 50D?

Thanks.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ease on June 18, 2013, 04:10:32 PM
Are we going somewhere with that ? No more flame burning there ? Any news ? Thanks !
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Michael Zöller on June 18, 2013, 04:27:27 PM
Are we going somewhere with that ? No more flame burning there ? Any news ? Thanks !
Uhm, the last post was less than 24h ago :) can you contribute anything?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ease on June 18, 2013, 05:12:54 PM
sorry don't want to sound harshhh, just very enthusiastic.
Would love to help...but not an engineer.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 18, 2013, 05:28:17 PM
Coming anytime now, June 18th Eastern Time, this: http://www.sycard.com/cflash.html, a CF passive extender card for testing purposes.

Tests plan would be:
1. Defeat CF camera slot door switch. Insert CF extender card into CF camera slot ( a Canon 50D ).
2.Verify camera with Canon/ML firmware boots up successfully.
3.Perform camera functions:
  (a) Take pictures, video
  (b) And more...
4. If step 3 succeeds, continue to next "tock", connect a IDE-CF adapter with a 2.5" 60gB drive formatted with the Canon/ML firmware v2.3 for Canon 50D
5. If successful, I'll update the forum hopefully within the next 24hrs.

Any test suggestions are welcome. Wish me luck.:-)

NB:
I'll take videos as I go through the step process with the elementary iPhone.:-)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Danne on June 18, 2013, 07:39:19 PM
Awesome! Good luck. How much was the passive extender?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 18, 2013, 09:15:36 PM
Awesome! Good luck. How much was the passive extender?

$USD50.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: pascalc on June 18, 2013, 11:44:13 PM
Good luck. Hope you'll succeed, this is an important step to make raw video workable.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ease on June 19, 2013, 12:07:23 AM
Absolutely, Good luck ! Wish you the best, the easiest to succeed !
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Andy600 on June 19, 2013, 12:19:36 AM
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 19, 2013, 03:56:56 AM
Good news...the test tool, a CF extender connected to a Canon 7D CF slot works. That means a small step to a mile.
Next step is to connect the IDE interface. A video is rendering while I write.

I can't perform an attachment here, why? How to?


Thanks to all the well wishers!!

Update: Here's the video:
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: swrightgfx on June 19, 2013, 06:34:25 AM
Hi Guys,

I have been following this for some time and have been exploring a little myself. It seems, albert-e, that you are at least getting somewhere with an over-the-counter solution.

In contrast, I have been in contact with a manufacturer in China, who specialises in data adapters and claims they can do it. They have quoted a price, but only on a significant number of units, with upfront commitment. I just emailed them to see if they can prototype an adapter first for development. I can't imagine this being a fast process, but if they can get it to work, I should be able to get units into production mid-September, once I have completed my migration to Malaysia.

Hopefully not much longer!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 19, 2013, 07:10:15 AM
Hi Guys,

I have been following this for some time and have been exploring a little myself. It seems, albert-e, that you are at least getting somewhere with an over-the-counter solution.

In contrast, I have been in contact with a manufacturer in China, who specialises in data adapters and claims they can do it. They have quoted a price, but only on a significant number of units, with upfront commitment. I just emailed them to see if they can prototype an adapter first for development. I can't imagine this being a fast process, but if they can get it to work, I should be able to get units into production mid-September, once I have completed my migration to Malaysia.

Hopefully not much longer!

Eventually,we'll be there but at this moment, it's too early yet. I'll focus on the test plan.We'll see, I'm pretty sure we'll be there. Close but not quite.

...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on June 19, 2013, 10:40:25 AM
I know some good guys in China that have helped me with many things and I tipped them off on this too, because I want them to make some money if they can do it.  A lot of people are working on this, it's just a matter of time.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 19, 2013, 02:33:40 PM
I know some good guys in China that have helped me with many things and I tipped them off on this too, because I want them to make some money if they can do it.  A lot of people are working on this, it's just a matter of time.

Good...I'll stick with Hardware interface test plan:
(1) CF Interface Adapter - Done
(2) IDE & SATA Interface Adapter - In the process, waiting for IDE interface to come this week.

and the software interface test (ML,if any) plan in the near future.

Everything step is inching towards a mile. We'll update soon,

...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Roman on June 20, 2013, 03:23:45 AM
Sheesh getting carried away a bit, Why even discuss mass production, when it's not even confirmed that it's possible to work yet?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 20, 2013, 03:45:17 AM
Sheesh getting carried away a bit, Why even discuss mass production, when it's not even confirmed that it's possible to work yet?

I just want to try and see where it leads me to, no hidden agenda. If you're a hacker, you'll know what I mean!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: sm105 on June 20, 2013, 05:39:55 AM
albert-e, it's exciting to read about your results, but wasn't it discussed earlier that the camera is not using IDE protocols? Do you have plans for a work-around?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: driftwood on June 20, 2013, 11:59:53 AM
http://www.glyn.com/data/glyn/media/doc/ATP_IG_CFast_card_spec_v1.0.pdf

Is CFast technology worth the look?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: atarijedi on June 20, 2013, 05:18:02 PM
http://www.glyn.com/data/glyn/media/doc/ATP_IG_CFast_card_spec_v1.0.pdf

Is CFast technology worth the look?

CFast is simply the SATA version of Compact Flash, which is PATA(IDE). It would have been nice if Canon had made the 5d3 a CFast device, 2 slots, 1 CFlash, 1 CFast!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 20, 2013, 07:21:30 PM
albert-e, it's exciting to read about your results, but wasn't it discussed earlier that the camera is not using IDE protocols? Do you have plans for a work-around?

CF is simply an ATA device ( IDE ), just search and you'll see all the CF-IDE adapters.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ease on June 20, 2013, 09:10:16 PM
It would have been nice if Canon had made the 5d3 a CFast device, 2 slots, 1 CFlash, 1 CFast!

It would have been nice if Canon had made the 5d3 a SSD Slot, CF slot and sd slot, a firewire 800, a thunderbolt and a USB 3 plug...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: AnotherDave on June 20, 2013, 10:04:50 PM
There is a lot of dreaming on here... so I'm going to dream a little too!

The solution for this isn't going to be a simple CF to SSD adapter.  Someone needs to design a CF/SSD hybrid comprised of a CF card that has only a giant buffer memory that is then sent via some cable externally to an SSD.

The whole point is to get the fastest possible write speed to open up more features... like 3.6K recording.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on June 21, 2013, 09:21:49 AM
^ That sounds unnecessarily complex, you can get the same result with the relatively dumb CF-to-SSD device that people are trying to design
(not saying we'll get 3.6K recording, just that anything that is possible with your concept should be possible, in principle, with the "simple" CF-to-SSD device too)

btw: I don't think I posted this, but I abandoned this project when I saw there were lots of more qualified people, even firms, working on it
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 21, 2013, 12:50:13 PM
^ That sounds unnecessarily complex, you can get the same result with the relatively dumb CF-to-SSD device that people are trying to design
CF is simply an ATA device ( IDE ), just search and you'll see all the CF-IDE adapters.

no, no and no. CF is not "simply IDE". NO!

if you look at the specs, CF has a lot of stuff beside an ATA compatible protocol.
and canon currently relys on this data. look in CF spec for CIS (card information structure)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 21, 2013, 02:30:53 PM
CF conforms to ATA specification and not to be confused when the term IDE device that is used synamously. http://searchstorage.techtarget.com/definition/IDE

And this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CompactFlash and this: http://www.galaxystor.com/PDF/CF%20Specs/023gdoc0011.pdf

We are all agree that sometimes it is all so confusing with all the technologies these days. As the say,""IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED, TRY, TRY AGAIN. Don't give up too easily; persistence pays off in the end, until I am convinced that it can't be done I'll pursue but at least we try. And that's important, "It's the thrill of the journey not the destination."

If at this stage, "g3gg0", if you are not convinced that it'll work or even if you have slight sign of doubt , then say so. We should try that is all I'm saying (software and support is the important part of the puzzle) and believe me...it is worth it. In the end, we can all bravely say,"Hey, we tried"

:-)




Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on June 21, 2013, 04:00:53 PM
it is possbile, but i ask to address these aspect:
a) the ATA protocol is just a subset of the CF standard.
b) IDE/SATA drives implement only that subset.
c) canon uses the CIS and FCR structures which are not part of ATA

-> dumb adapter will not work without software hacks
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: AnotherDave on June 21, 2013, 04:06:03 PM
-> dumb adapter will not work without software hacks

People need to concentrate on a way to design a low cost, smart adapter that can give the full potential write speed of the camera.  If that is 167MB/sec... then that means we'll be able to get 3.6K out of this sucker, and that is the ONLY THING I could consider buying.

Otherwise, KB CF cards are fine by me...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 21, 2013, 05:47:29 PM
it is possbile, but i ask to address these aspect:
a) the ATA protocol is just a subset of the CF standard.
b) IDE/SATA drives implement only that subset.
c) canon uses the CIS and FCR structures which are not part of ATA

-> dumb adapter will not work without software hacks

Good,you pointed out the software interface.I hinted that from previous post that if need be, the software hacks are needed.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: AnotherDave on June 21, 2013, 08:06:36 PM
A software hack to allow this to work would make this device ONLY viable in a Canon DSLR... why limit it if a hardware solution is more practical, and could give the desired write speed.  *All signs have pointed to a dumb-cable solution as not being possible.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 21, 2013, 08:35:00 PM
A software hack to allow this to work would make this device ONLY viable in a Canon DSLR... why limit it if a hardware solution is more practical, and could give the desired write speed.  *All signs have pointed to a dumb-cable solution as not being possible.

If the software hack works, there are advantages to look for. I can mention a few,i.e. (1) Storage (more room for raw videos), (2) A passive adapter that was called "dumb" can be "smarter" with some additional hardware add-on design. We can start from there...how about that?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 21, 2013, 09:24:40 PM
Okay, this is something new but not quite old (April 2013):

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/printnews/Toshiba-Starts-Sales-of-CompactFlash-Memory-Card-for-DSLRs/7281

This might have done it:

It says "The EXCERIA PRO CF cards integrate Toshiba’s NAND flash memory and specially developed dedicated firmware. They achieve a read speed of 160 MB/s and write speed of 150 MB/s, the highest level yet reported, according to the company  .
The new cards are compliant with the CompactFlash Association (CFA) standard CompactFlash Specification Revision 6.1 and compatible with the UDMA7 high speed interface, ensuring they can support high performance DSLRs to the fullest. The cards are also compatible with the latest “Video Performance Guarantee Profile 2” standard, VPG-65. VPG-65 secures Full HD video capture streams at a minimum write speed of 65 MB/s for compatible host devices and recording media. VPG-65 enables 4K resolution (a digital movie file format with horizontal resolution of approx. 4,000 pixels and vertical resolution of approx. 2,000 pixels) movie shooting and high quality Full HD video capture at high frame rates with no dropped frames."

So it means, Canon 5D Mark III can take advantage...the rest of the line - not so much.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anchoricex on June 22, 2013, 02:08:08 AM
As a 5dmkiii owner.... this is fine with me :P
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Danne on June 22, 2013, 06:29:37 AM
COuld it actually mean 50fps 1920x1080?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: squig on June 22, 2013, 07:31:37 AM
I have 2 Toshiba 1066x cards, they're no faster than the Lexar 1000x. Toshiba's marketing is all hype not surprisingly.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: nightvision04 on June 22, 2013, 08:56:59 AM
I have 2 Toshiba 1066x cards, they're no faster than the Lexar 1000x. Toshiba's marketing is all hype not surprisingly.

I can second that. It's a great card, but it's not close to the 150 Mbps write that they claim.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on June 22, 2013, 09:04:12 AM
There is a lot of dreaming on here... so I'm going to dream a little too!

The solution for this isn't going to be a simple CF to SSD adapter.  Someone needs to design a CF/SSD hybrid comprised of a CF card that has only a giant buffer memory that is then sent via some cable externally to an SSD.

The whole point is to get the fastest possible write speed to open up more features... like 3.6K recording.

Theoretical max speed is 167 MB/sec, no matter what you connect to CF slot. Thus, you can use any resolution ML supports, but if it doesn't fit in 167MB/sec (probably little lower), it won't work.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 22, 2013, 11:21:14 AM
I can second that. It's a great card, but it's not close to the 150 Mbps write that they claim.

There must be valid claim to this "EXCERIA PRo CF" line of CF, maybe Canon is not yet compliant to CompactFlash Association (CFA) standard CompactFlash Specification Revision 6.1.? Another firmware update in the future or expanded hack from ML experts?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on June 23, 2013, 04:45:21 AM
Don't believe any claims of 150MB/s... it all ends up being 80-100MB/s...

Hoodman steel does this too
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on June 23, 2013, 12:06:26 PM
COuld it actually mean 50fps 1920x1080?

No. 24fps tops out at 93MB/sec. As max data rate for CF interface is 167MB/sec, you will never ever be able to record more than roughly 40fps in 1920p, no matter how fast storage you use.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Danne on June 23, 2013, 12:14:56 PM
Ok, so the bottleneck here is the camera? Can it even go pass 100mb limit? Anybody know?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 23, 2013, 12:47:33 PM
Ok, so the bottleneck here is the camera? Can it even go pass 100mb limit? Anybody know?

A new camera design with a minimum of 100Mb/s recording that uses SSD's maximum transfer rate up to 500Mb/s read/write or a thunderbolt "like" design for the extreme user. In short, BLACKMAGIC, RED camera's.

The writing is on the wall, raw video.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on June 23, 2013, 11:04:05 PM
it is possbile, but i ask to address these aspect:
a) the ATA protocol is just a subset of the CF standard.
b) IDE/SATA drives implement only that subset.
c) canon uses the CIS and FCR structures which are not part of ATA

-> dumb adapter will not work without software hacks

This information I gathered about the CIS.  It is very rare to find a CF card slot implemented as anything other than a hardwired True-IDE device. You can't access the CIS unless the slot is wired as a PCMCIA-type implementation. There's no reason to look at the CIS for a flash disk card; it's only useful for I/O type cards. So, Canon cameras are what, memory mapped I/O cards?

In some situations, you can however use the ATA Identify command to get some vendor information about the card. There's a command hdparm -I (or -Istdout for the raw data) to see what this will give you in a system but not from USB attached device.

To prove the specification I will perform a elementary tests(like in the past);I'll connect a CF microdrive to my Canon 50D,7D, and see if the camera recognizes the card. In theory , this test setup should work. I'll get a microdrive first. I don't care about the transfer rate at the moment, 16Mb/s. We'll see.

To be continued...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Fender on July 03, 2013, 02:37:31 PM
Hey Guys,

I just got word back from china, and my guy found those CF adapters, but he wrote me asking:

"OK, I able find one in china.
I want confirm you need.
It's IDE host to CF disk?
CF host to IDE disk?
CF host to SATA disk?
IDE host to SATA disk?
Just tell me you want ,clearly."

Which one do we need guys?

Besides the adaptor,  whe would need a Fast SSD with exactly the dimensions of a Batery LP6 , just to place it  inside the grip, conected to the adaptor  by a external conector ;D
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: swrightgfx on July 03, 2013, 04:09:47 PM
Sheesh getting carried away a bit, Why even discuss mass production, when it's not even confirmed that it's possible to work yet?

Those who innovate are typically subject to costs. The motive for those seeking solutions to this problem through business (myself included) is not necessarily for financial gain, but merely to use business as a method and driver for the solution(s) we seek. The path one takes does not matter (with some moral constraints), as the goal is mutual.

From my end, I have hit a brick wall with the manufacturer I was dealing with in China. I am not sure if they have hit a bottleneck and are simply stalling answers to my requests or whether they don't see value in the project. Here's hoping.

How is everyone else travelling with this?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: HAMMERTOWN on July 06, 2013, 07:16:54 PM
I was in the market for a new camera and I am picking up a mint 50d(Getting a really good deal on it) with 3000 actuations just because of this site.  I want to thank you guys so much for all the research and hard work you have put into this project.  I will be donating for sure.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Fender on July 09, 2013, 03:06:19 PM
Any update about the CF slot- SATA slot investigations?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: MRozier on July 09, 2013, 10:34:00 PM
Hi there, ld love to know how developments are going too.  I'm about to pull the trigger on a few cf cards so it'd be really handy to know how everyone's  hard work is panning out? I'd obviously love to support one of you guys in your ssd cause, but I'm thinking that the cf card route may be the only way to go that's on the horizon? Many thanks for all your time and efforts I've followed this thread daily since its inception. 
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anchoricex on July 10, 2013, 12:24:36 AM
Any new developments?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on July 10, 2013, 11:42:27 AM
My team has the prototype cf/zif mod built, we're just waiting on parts from china to power.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: MRozier on July 10, 2013, 03:41:39 PM
Hey Hirethestache!
That sounds really promising, forgive the questions but I'm just trying to make as educated as decision as is possible.  Have you any idea of a timeframe for when you imagine your prototype may go into production? And do you know if its a massive add on requiring external power etc. or would it be something battery grip sized for example that doesn't add too much extra weight.  Again apologies for the questions, it just sounds like you've gotten the furthest so far, which is such promising news that I'm wondering whether to not go the cf card route at all and to wait for the ssd route instead if that's something that's not too far away.  I imagine there are many more in the same boat :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on July 11, 2013, 12:05:54 AM
Unfortunately I do not have a timeframe. I do not have the engineering expertise, I am only financing this project to two well experienced engineers I hired to tackle the job. As far as implementation, it will have to be powered. My device specifically would mount off-camera, similar to a monitor/field recorder, or directly to the hotshoe.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anchoricex on July 22, 2013, 07:57:13 PM
Unfortunately I do not have a timeframe. I do not have the engineering expertise, I am only financing this project to two well experienced engineers I hired to tackle the job. As far as implementation, it will have to be powered. My device specifically would mount off-camera, similar to a monitor/field recorder, or directly to the hotshoe.

Maybe mount underneath the camera (utilize the tripod plate hole) and have another threaded hole on the bottom for actual tripod plate use? Or is the device going to be powered by the camera hot shoe ?




Anyone else out here still working on developments or have most of these hit a wall ?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on July 22, 2013, 11:56:41 PM
mounting underneath the camera is very unpractical for everyone working with advanced rigs. Focus-pullers and matte-boxes wouldn't fit properly. A system utilizing the hot-shoe or something that would fit on a standardized rail-system would be of more use.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on July 27, 2013, 04:28:34 AM
MY design calls for a mult-mountable unit, able to attach to a hot/cold shoe or rails.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: meauounji on July 27, 2013, 07:00:55 AM
mounting underneath the camera is very unpractical for everyone working with advanced rigs. Focus-pullers and matte-boxes wouldn't fit properly. A system utilizing the hot-shoe or something that would fit on a standardized rail-system would be of more use.

What if the design incorporated a 15mm rod mount to begin with?

Correct 15mm rod height is actually somewhere in the a battery grip's space, not underneath it, so if this custom "grip" already included a good tripod mount (at least two 1/4" 20) and already has a rod mount in front, RED Epic style, then that would work out great for rigging. Better yet, build in a small-ish shoulder pad behind the tripod mount ENG/Alexa style and you have a near complete rig in one unit.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Novosibirets on July 27, 2013, 09:46:34 AM
I do not know whether this is rarely an adapter. Found in Novosibirsk proposal for ~$10 (4 pcs). It makes sense to buy with the prospect of SSD?

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F42.img.avito.st%2F640x480%2F351735842.jpg&hash=b16c9abe9b30275ac367bf4c43dc6a8c) (http://www.avito.ru/novosibirsk/tovary_dlya_kompyutera/perehodnik_dlya_podklyucheniya_compact_flash_k_ide_166169154)

IDE2CF-B1 Espada < FG-IDE2UCF3-A-01-CT21> IDE-> CF Переходник / адаптер для подключения Compact Flash устройств к IDE контроллеру.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Drizzt321 on July 28, 2013, 09:53:06 PM
I can second that. It's a great card, but it's not close to the 150 Mbps write that they claim.

Was this the 16GB or 32/64GB card?

Looking at the 16GB (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Toshiba-16GB-EXCERIA-PRO-1066x-Compact-Flash-High-Speed-Memory-Card/24955394?findingMethod=rr) card image, it shows W of 95 MB/s, while the 32GB (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Toshiba-32GB-EXCERIA-PRO-1066x-Compact-Flash-High-Speed-Memory-Card/24955396?findingMethod=rr) shows 150MB/s. Not saying you're wrong, just curious which you got because the larger capacity 32/64GB likely has more NAND dies which means more dies for parallel writes which generally means higher peak write speeds.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: tonybeccar on August 04, 2013, 09:56:16 AM
Excuse me! Is this DIY project useful for this?

http://www.davidhunt.ie/?p=2641

It's basically a raspberry pi which communicates with the camera via USB.. and can download the material on realtime to a hard drive.. I don't know if the USB speeds are that high.. but I think it's an interesting project.. the author managed to do lots of stuff with it.. maybe even could open a wide range of possibilites for magic lantern! (i'm just wondering lol)..
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: eatstoomuchjam on August 04, 2013, 05:09:00 PM
Excuse me! Is this DIY project useful for this?

http://www.davidhunt.ie/?p=2641

It's basically a raspberry pi which communicates with the camera via USB.. and can download the material on realtime to a hard drive.. I don't know if the USB speeds are that high.. but I think it's an interesting project.. the author managed to do lots of stuff with it.. maybe even could open a wide range of possibilites for magic lantern! (i'm just wondering lol)..

The theoretical maximum speed for USB 2 is 480 megabits/second (60MB/s) and even with the best controllers, that throughput is rarely seen in real life.  Not likely to be useful at all in this case.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kukysimon on August 04, 2013, 08:55:14 PM
not sure if this is an option here for you:


a single optical fiber can carry much more data than electrical cables such as standard category 5 Ethernet cabling, which typically runs at 100 Mbit/s or 1 Gbit/s speeds.
Fiber optic can transfer data at 100 Mbps, 1 Gbps, 10 Gbps, and 40 Gbps
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on August 05, 2013, 10:16:27 AM
The problem right now is not that the electrical interface is not fast enough (SATA3 is 600 MB/s, or about 7 times faster than we actually need), but that we can't fool the camera into thinking it has a standard CF card and at the same time translate the received data for the SATA controller.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: gyf304 on August 11, 2013, 02:40:27 PM
Well, I kind of came up with this idea a few years ago when I figured out that CF has an identical electrical interface as IDE, just in different arrangements. I looked online but no solution could be found. The solution I can provide is a CF-Zif converter and then a Zif-IDE Converter, all pure passive converters(Well, some have 5V-3.3V converters but they can be shorted out). So it might actually work! Never tried it, but sounds promising.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hirethestache on August 13, 2013, 10:13:47 PM
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC8p3u5G.jpg&hash=1f0c276babd5d77b74d9d9643d4ed3f2)

Current issue with the CF-Zif to Zif-Sata is that the drive is spinning, but the computer is not reading the drive. Any advice/direction would be great.

parts:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-converter-board-Adapter-for-Half-Slim-SATA-II-22PIN-SSD-to-1-8-CE-ZIF-PATA-/261214036476?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item3cd191e1fc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/40pin-1-8-CE-ZIF-HDD-to-1-8-toshiba-Hard-Drive-CF-50pin-converter-adapter-229-/181116022590?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item2a2b5b2f3e

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: gyf304 on August 20, 2013, 05:48:53 AM
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FC8p3u5G.jpg&hash=1f0c276babd5d77b74d9d9643d4ed3f2)

Current issue with the CF-Zif to Zif-Sata is that the drive is spinning, but the computer is not reading the drive. Any advice/direction would be great.

parts:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-converter-board-Adapter-for-Half-Slim-SATA-II-22PIN-SSD-to-1-8-CE-ZIF-PATA-/261214036476?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item3cd191e1fc

http://www.ebay.com/itm/40pin-1-8-CE-ZIF-HDD-to-1-8-toshiba-Hard-Drive-CF-50pin-converter-adapter-229-/181116022590?pt=US_Drive_Cables_dapters&hash=item2a2b5b2f3e

Does the card reader support Microdrives? Trying to plug it on to a CF-IDE then directly onto the mainboard might help.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: gyf304 on August 20, 2013, 05:54:27 AM
This information I gathered about the CIS.  It is very rare to find a CF card slot implemented as anything other than a hardwired True-IDE device. You can't access the CIS unless the slot is wired as a PCMCIA-type implementation. There's no reason to look at the CIS for a flash disk card; it's only useful for I/O type cards. So, Canon cameras are what, memory mapped I/O cards?

In some situations, you can however use the ATA Identify command to get some vendor information about the card. There's a command hdparm -I (or -Istdout for the raw data) to see what this will give you in a system but not from USB attached device.

To prove the specification I will perform a elementary tests(like in the past);I'll connect a CF microdrive to my Canon 50D,7D, and see if the camera recognizes the card. In theory , this test setup should work. I'll get a microdrive first. I don't care about the transfer rate at the moment, 16Mb/s. We'll see.

To be continued...

Tried that, won't work. A seagate 5GB drive.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: saary on September 04, 2013, 08:06:57 AM
Greetings,,

i wonder if there is any update regard the project

thanks all
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: saary on September 05, 2013, 12:51:31 PM
i hope if this will help in anyway.

http://the-gadgeteer.com/2001/03/29/accurite_compact_flash_to_pcmcia_card_adapter_review/ (http://the-gadgeteer.com/2001/03/29/accurite_compact_flash_to_pcmcia_card_adapter_review/)

http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/CFU2U.html (http://www.ratocsystems.com/english/products/CFU2U.html)

http://pocketnow.com/hardware-1/dual-usb-host-compact-flash-card-coming (http://pocketnow.com/hardware-1/dual-usb-host-compact-flash-card-coming)

and i know its old!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: saary on September 07, 2013, 06:33:48 PM
what happened to the project. don't kill it please  :'(
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on September 09, 2013, 12:22:35 PM
I abandoned development when I saw lots of real engineers already working on it. It seems they're stuck because the camera does some out-of-spec stuff, or otherwise requires something that a standard mechanical CF-to-IDE adapter plus IDE-to-SATA adapter won't do. If that's the case, the adapter would have to be more complicated, with a custom chip probably, and that makes it a lot more expensive and slow to develop.

In any case, with Transcend 128GB 1000x CF cards offering storage for 24 minutes of 1920x1080-24p RAW video for $300, my interest in this has fallen considerably...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kgv5 on September 09, 2013, 02:17:54 PM
In a couple of days i will test nexto di 2730 portable HDD with CF and SD slot. 500GB onboard will give about an hour of raw footage, i hope that transfer speed will be sufficient to offload one card during filling the other one.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on September 09, 2013, 09:16:05 PM
Tried that, won't work. A seagate 5GB drive.

FYI, the Microdrive uses 5V; Canon outputs or uses 3.3V.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on September 09, 2013, 09:17:57 PM
I abandoned development when I saw lots of real engineers already working on it. It seems they're stuck because the camera does some out-of-spec stuff, or otherwise requires something that a standard mechanical CF-to-IDE adapter plus IDE-to-SATA adapter won't do. If that's the case, the adapter would have to be more complicated, with a custom chip probably, and that makes it a lot more expensive and slow to develop.

In any case, with Transcend 128GB 1000x CF cards offering storage for 24 minutes of 1920x1080-24p RAW video for $300, my interest in this has fallen considerably...

Ditto!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Midphase on September 09, 2013, 11:25:19 PM
It appears as if there is an unsurmountable write speed bottleneck in the cameras that an SSD drive option probably won't fix, particularly considering that 1200X cards don't seem to be able to reach speeds greater than what we can already get with 1000X cards.

Add to it the fact that there appear to be issues with cards larger than 128gb which might create problems with SSD drives, and the fact that 1050X 128gb cards are coming down in price considerably, and I would think that the whole idea of trying to add an SSD drive to the camera somehow becomes unnecessary.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on September 10, 2013, 01:48:20 PM
For me, the main reason for using an SSD instead of a CF card was always price: if a 128GB 1000x card is $600 and a 180GB SSD is $100, well, I would be very happy if I could buy this adapter for $300. But with a good 128GB 1000x card at $300, well, it's not so attractive...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: GroverHouse on September 11, 2013, 07:13:11 AM
Total sidetrack...What about thunderbolt?

Thought this was an interesting bringing in thunderbolt to the equation
http://texassoundguy.blogspot.com/2013/04/creating-thunderbolt-compact-flash-card.html

Makes me wonder if this is really an attempt here at make a Black Betty type camera rather than an CF media alternative :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on September 12, 2013, 07:43:45 PM
For me, the main reason for using an SSD instead of a CF card was always price: if a 128GB 1000x card is $600 and a 180GB SSD is $100, well, I would be very happy if I could buy this adapter for $300. But with a good 128GB 1000x card at $300, well, it's not so attractive...

Soon the prices will come down. Meanwhile, this is one reason I suspended my project:
News from Sandisk, 256 GB Extreme Pro CompactFlash card unveiled by SanDisk
http://pulse.me/s/qcbFi
SanDisk has unveiled a new high-capacity storage solution for photographers and videographers using devices supporting the CompactFlash format. The ne... Read more
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Midphase on September 12, 2013, 08:15:20 PM
"SanDisk says that the new memory card provides minimum sustained write speeds of 65 MB per second"

Isn't that too slow for full HD raw capture?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on September 12, 2013, 08:39:45 PM
You can also get 95 MBs SD cards.
The problem is the camera, which won't do that speed ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Grunf on September 13, 2013, 09:11:32 AM
Camera bus is limited to 167MB/sec (so are all CF cards used in MK III). That is plenty enough for 1080p24.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: enliten on September 20, 2013, 01:27:05 PM
i'm going to revive this thread to paste this link

http://www.sycard.com/cfext182.html

it's an extender for CF. I did notice earlier in the thread that somebody tried soldering pins directly on the CF card. This little device may make things easier.

-Ben
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 20, 2013, 02:50:49 PM
It's not more easy to make an Nexto ?  HDD + CF input + battery  ?!?

Don't have 400 dollars to buy one but maybe making one? In locations would be s nice to have one, 2.5 hdd are cheap...


http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/797720-REG/Nexto_DI_ND2730500G_ND2730_Digital_Photo_Storage.html
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on September 20, 2013, 03:13:54 PM
^ You also need some logic to control the process. I.e. a processor, and some programming so it does something meaningful when you press the buttons. It would be cheaper if it was a mass-produced item...

The alternative is to buy a small notebook with loads of HDD space. Much more useful, but it weights a lot more.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 20, 2013, 04:35:31 PM
So...

Arduino = 30$
HDD 2.5" drive 500 GB = 50$
CF INPUT = 20$
Battery = ??

I would love to have this setup. For me a lot more practical that a notebook and could change disks if they are full.

-Insert card, press button.

-Plug & Dump  :D
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on September 21, 2013, 12:26:14 AM
Another reason why I abandon the project. Delkin CF 1050x, UDMA 7 cinema memory card. Check this out.
http://www.popphoto.com/gear/2013/09/new-gear-delkin-cf-1050x-udma-7-cinema-memory-card-ready-4k
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: enliten on September 21, 2013, 05:54:22 AM
this is not an impossible project... although it will be highly unlikely that there will be any real increase in speed. the only thing this would offer would be the potential for more storage space.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive

would it be possible to frankenstein some microdrive hardware?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on September 21, 2013, 10:17:57 AM
Another reason why I abandon the project. Delkin CF 1050x, UDMA 7 cinema memory card. Check this out.
http://www.popphoto.com/gear/2013/09/new-gear-delkin-cf-1050x-udma-7-cinema-memory-card-ready-4k

I see the point, but how do you deal with the price aspect: $639.95 - 128GB?
When storage prices get close to the price range of glass (in the DSLR world of course) things get a bit, how should i say...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 21, 2013, 12:04:47 PM
At this point, with the large capacity and speed of CF cards im not looking for speed (camera bus limited speed) but looking for alternative solution in price/storage and mobility.

-unfortunately I could never buy a card that costs me 300€ or 500€. If i got the money would buy other priority things (slide, steadicam, etc..)

-But give the money for something that in the field i can pass my 2 x 32gb  card for a 2.5" drive without computer would be very nice. Not only nice but practical. I fill a card and just put in the "ML NEXTO" and press button to dump, use the other 32g card for shooting while the other is passing the info to the 2,5" drive. Hooopsss, in the middle of the day my 2.5" drive of 500GB is full !!! No problem just swap the disk for another that cost me 50$ .

-So, if this exist i can pass all day shooting with 2 cards and one "ML NEXT" , without computer. Battery for sure will be less demanding that a computer and can operate all day.

I think is a simple idea a so pratical. Plug & dump !!! I don't understand nothing about programming (old pascal) but i got one arduino that i can send to some one that want to try. For sure in this threat exist people that have the CF connector that if give  up from the CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording  project. Also don't mind to gather some money together and buy a 2.5" hard drive and send it.

Maybe albert-e want to embrace this or other developer  ::)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 3pointedit on September 21, 2013, 04:39:16 PM
If you are dumping footage to another drive, then you should be mirroring at the same time. A simple RAID I guess. That way no-one can stuff the footage up.

I guess something like this only more simple and way cheaper! http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/413447-REG/Panasonic_AJ_PCS060G_AJ_PCS060G_60_GB_P2.html

or with CF reader

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/768991-REG/Nexto_DI_NESV_NVS2501_NVS2501_Video_Storage_Pro.html

Still far to expensive. I guess a simple netbook would do all this with a dumb ext HDD.


So you get a netbook
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/914387-REG/acer_lu_sga0d_066_aspire_one_aod270_26dkk_1gb.html
add a CF reader (usb3)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/815153-REG/Transcend_TS_RDF8K_USB_3_0_Multi_Card.html
and an ext HDD (usb3) pref 2 for redundancy
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/find/itemIncDetails.jsp/sku/841444/is/REG/type/acc/att/cat@__accessory_Essentials%5EDetail%5ELyr@__parent@__ACAOD2701375

$275 + (HDD@ $79 x 2) = $433
As Jason Wingrove of RC podcast says "If the light is green the trap is clean".
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on September 21, 2013, 05:13:14 PM
I see the point, but how do you deal with the price aspect: $639.95 - 128GB?
When storage prices get close to the price range of glass (in the DSLR world of course) things get a bit, how should i say...

Perhaps the most underrated savings tool is simple patience. When a new consumer product hits the shelves -- say, a DVD of a movie that came out recently or a new model of a laptop -- it's generally sold at the manufacturer's suggested retail price, or MSRP. After some time has passed, however, that price will start to drop. This happens either because the retailer decides to put it on sale or because the manufacturer itself decides to implement a price cut to boost sales.

So how long do you actually have to wait to start seeing the price decrease? For individual products it will depend a lot on sales figures. The Nintendo 3DS, for instance, saw a price cut of $80 after just five months, a move prompted by sluggish sales. But it's also possible to look at past trends to estimate average wait times for different classes of products.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 21, 2013, 06:41:29 PM
The panasonic is out of order and only 60GB, the nexto cost 1250$ and you can't change drive.  Laptop + 2.5" drive + card reader is to much gear.. and money.

2.5"drive + arduino + cf input = cheap & easy ??

Going investigate  :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on September 21, 2013, 09:27:50 PM
Arduino? Absolutely not - Datarates are nothing that comes near to useable..

I've been searching for programmable chips for this kind of purpose, did, however, not find anything. Anyone with experience in this field?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 21, 2013, 10:18:15 PM
Arduino? Absolutely not - Datarates are nothing that comes near to useable..

I've been searching for programmable chips for this kind of purpose, did, however, not find anything. Anyone with experience in this field?

Ok, so arduino for making a simple CF to 2.5"  (like nexto) is a NO. Because of transfer rates... but is so slow? How slow?

..and no other possibility's?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on September 21, 2013, 11:06:44 PM
The Arduino isn't in any way designed to deal with this.

I know Altera is producing PLDs that could suit the requirements. It is, however, quite obvious that others do as well :P
The only problem here is that it requires quite some knowledge to implement a solution. That's the actual deal here.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 21, 2013, 11:11:50 PM

Do you know the price for the Altera PLD?

 "implement a solution"  In the rest of the hardware or in software, making the code?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on September 21, 2013, 11:23:21 PM
you can very unlikely buy these off the shelve. They are being produced as soon as someone needs them in a product.

And of course, that is only the heart of the design. It requires some work to set up the rest around and especially ages and lots of knowledge to implement the software side of things.
Documentation is close to non-existent, lots of learning is required.

I know, I'm currently wearing a metaphorical black hat. It might be possible to design a solution even when you only do electronics as a hobby, but the required learning is significant.

EDIT: okay, you can actually get some of Alteras (C)PLDs on the internet. The price depends on what you need.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 3pointedit on September 21, 2013, 11:33:29 PM
Theres this system but no removable HDD
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Portable-Data-Storage/ci/3369/N/4083163867

And this SD to HDD via smart phone solution
http://www.andreasbank1980.blogspot.de/2012/08/on-go-image-backup-for-10-only.html

Substitute in a CF reader and an old android phone, plus some gaffer tape. You got a all in one solution. But battery power would be a problem?

Found on this similar DPreview forum page.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291394
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 21, 2013, 11:34:25 PM
Indeed, like that looks a lot more complicated to make something like a nexto. Just to go in the field and transfer my 8gb 60mb/s  card to a 2.5" drive.

Can you see the price for 1 ?! Prototype?


Do you know the transfer velocity that you can achieve with the arduino?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 21, 2013, 11:40:47 PM
Theres this system but no removable HDD
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/buy/Portable-Data-Storage/ci/3369/N/4083163867

And this SD to HDD via smart phone solution
http://www.andreasbank1980.blogspot.de/2012/08/on-go-image-backup-for-10-only.html

Found on this similar DPreview forum page.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3291394

No doubt, more affordable price (still expencive)and read raw files? Photo or video? Must be photo... but with fw upgrade maybe in the future. Yes, should change the disks.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 21, 2013, 11:43:25 PM
http://www.andreasbank1980.blogspot.de/2012/08/on-go-image-backup-for-10-only.html


"Since a cloud based backup is no solution due to the huge amount of data and service availability I was thinking of getting one of these image tanks. But I just could not get myself on spending 300€ for a mobile hard drive with a SD Card slot."

Same here  :D   it's a very pretty solution  =)) Thanks for this. Its far for being perfect but is something =)))


MAYBE THIS IS THE SOLUTION

http://secure.mm5server.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WD&Product_Code=761T&Category_Code=FlashPac
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on September 21, 2013, 11:51:00 PM
In the case of the Arduino: they work with ATmega µCs and in all cases at 20Mhz. I have no math on how much performance it would take to convert between the two protocols. The thing is just: a 20MHz clocking vs. 90Mbs Bandwidth - no matter how smart you implement the protocol, that's far more data/s compared to possible calculations/s. And I'll bet that there are more calculations required here.

I still hope for a chance to get this working via software.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 22, 2013, 12:02:24 AM
Yes, hope so  :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on September 29, 2013, 01:12:21 AM
MAYBE THIS IS THE SOLUTION
http://secure.mm5server.com/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=WD&Product_Code=761T&Category_Code=FlashPac

The PicPac looks cool, but check this out:
I tested the device with a SanDisk 16GB CF card loaded with just under 4GB of still image files. The device had no problem reading the card, and the transfer took about 12 minutes.

Now think of having a 64/128GB card... :(
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on September 29, 2013, 06:00:33 AM
Yes, for the compact size, transportation and price... I think in feature will be more fast and same price.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Glabu on October 19, 2013, 12:44:59 AM
Hi guys,

Do you think it's possible to attach this kind of adapter ATA to Ethernet from the CF slot :
http://www.ioi.com.tw/products/proddetail.aspx?CatID=101&HostID=2028&DeviceID=3000&ProdID=1010119 (http://www.ioi.com.tw/products/proddetail.aspx?CatID=101&HostID=2028&DeviceID=3000&ProdID=1010119)

Glabu.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on October 19, 2013, 12:07:55 PM
could be possible when HDDs are working.
but why would you want do that?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Vlad on November 07, 2013, 12:41:57 AM
I am familiar with group of developers who can make the device that the flow of video was written down on SSD. but in their opinion this device will have a small demand. the cost of development is in limits of 20-30 thousand dollars. May we arrange vote to learn real need for such device?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: yannkibongui.com on November 07, 2013, 03:19:24 AM
That is good news :)
If the info is raleyed by famous blogs like eoshd or philipbloom it could gather quite a lot of interested people…

Some of 150/200 people interested in a 400 euros device, it could be commercially viable !
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on November 07, 2013, 04:30:39 AM
they would sell like hot cakes! 
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on November 07, 2013, 10:01:11 AM
Yeah! 2 thumbs up!!!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Vlad on November 07, 2013, 01:14:08 PM
development of the system may take a year :-[
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on November 07, 2013, 01:50:42 PM
* it seems to me that it is not easy to estimate demand for this thing, so, a kickstarter would be a good idea, since it commits buyers before development takes place

* the bad side to this is that a possible outcome is that they find that it is not possible to use an SSD drive, because of some issue with the Canon card controller, and then the buyers are taking all the risk

* also, the price of CF cards that are fast enough for shooting RAW on the 5D3 has already fallen by 50% since this started (for 128GB, you used to need a $600 SanDisk card, now you can use a $300 Transcend card; no, I won't consider KomputerBay a viable option), making the adapter much less compelling; a year of development would make this even worse (my price for this gadget would be: the price difference between a 128GB CF card that is fast enough, and a 120GB SSD drive; and this difference is falling really fast).
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on November 07, 2013, 02:52:08 PM
How about speeds?
Is there even a chance that CFs will catch up with SSDs in terms of speed? Ever?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on November 07, 2013, 03:42:14 PM
I don't need speed. I'm perfectly fine with 1920x1080 RAW video, which tops at 83 MB/s. As long as I have that, I'm fine.
Of course, some people would disagree.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on November 07, 2013, 05:31:40 PM
And you(in particular) will never need higher FPS(for example)?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on November 08, 2013, 12:39:41 PM
My guess is that the sensor won't do more than 30 fps, no matter how fast your card is. If it does more, it is by lowering the resolution, so then you don't need faster storage either.

If the sensor can't send out more data than what a fast CF card can handle, then switching to an SSD drive is pointless. Except for cost.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: PressureFM on November 09, 2013, 11:23:15 AM
My guess is that the sensor won't do more than 30 fps, no matter how fast your card is. If it does more, it is by lowering the resolution, so then you don't need faster storage either.

If the sensor can't send out more data than what a fast CF card can handle, then switching to an SSD drive is pointless. Except for cost.

More data and consistent data flow is quite vital in my opinion but since your needs are already meet, perhaps it is time we halt all development...

Besides, you can already do 48FPS and up to 60 FPS on the 5D Mark III. In fact, it is being held back by the slow speed of CompactFlash cards at this time.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on November 09, 2013, 02:46:17 PM
Correct. As it looks like right now, the max for all cameras (this applies to many aspects, also FPS overwrite for normal video) is at a bit over 60fps. The timers for the framerates ( used in liveview, video recording, ..) can simply not go faster. At least nobody knows how to.

At the moment however, nobody knows if other components might turn into a bottleneck when the write-speed isn't one anymore. The buffer size, the buffer speed, the processor and the memory-card controller might just be some.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on November 10, 2013, 03:06:59 AM
All I know is it would be much better to record to a large SSD and not need to keep dumping cards.  The camera is definitely the limiting factor and would never utilize the speed of an SSD, but for the convenience of having more recording space and a cheaper price, SSD would be a way better option than CF.  They have 1TB Samsung EVO SSD drives for $589.  I paid $349 for my 64GB Hoodman Steel.  It doesn't take a genius to realize SSD is a far better option.

http://www.amazon.com/Samsung-Electronics-EVO-Series-2-5-Inch-MZ-7TE1T0BW/dp/B00E3W16OU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1384048875&sr=8-1&keywords=1tb+samsung+ssd
http://www.amazon.com/Crucial-2-5-Inch-adapter-Internal-CT960M500SSD1/dp/B00BQ8RGL6/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1384048875&sr=8-4&keywords=1tb+samsung+ssd

Make a proof of concept that it works and I will happily pre-pay for a unit!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on November 10, 2013, 05:43:37 PM
I'd follow like a super blind dude! Any day! +1
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on November 10, 2013, 07:28:57 PM
When it comes to it: even the writing speed of spinning HDDs is good enough. Might not be as reliable, but 1tb of 2.5" is 80 bucks - CFs can at the moment, and also in a range of a few years, not, by any means, compete with that.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on November 11, 2013, 11:29:32 AM
I'm not saying there's no need for this. I'm saying it may not be as big as some might think, because yes, my needs are met by CF cards, and I'm guessing I'm not the only one. For me it would be a matter of cost, and that gap is closing down quite fast, with good 128GB cards already at $300 (so the gap is less than half of what it was 4 months ago).

SSDs are better and cheaper, but make sure you have a big-enough market before you get a mortgage to finance this. That's why I suggested a kickstarter campaign. Still problematic, though, if it turns out it's not in your hand to fulfill your promise, because of some technical impossibility.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on November 12, 2013, 04:57:18 AM
I'm not saying there's no need for this. I'm saying it may not be as big as some might think, because yes, my needs are met by CF cards, and I'm guessing I'm not the only one. For me it would be a matter of cost, and that gap is closing down quite fast, with good 128GB cards already at $300 (so the gap is less than half of what it was 4 months ago).

SSDs are better and cheaper, but make sure you have a big-enough market before you get a mortgage to finance this. That's why I suggested a kickstarter campaign. Still problematic, though, if it turns out it's not in your hand to fulfill your promise, because of some technical impossibility.

Ok so, you would have to buy 8 of those 128GB cards to equal 1TB…Thats comes out to $2400.00 LOL  What if I don't want to live with dumping that 128GB card every 20 min of shooting?  I know 20 min is plenty of shooting most of the time, but what if you're doing more than that?  Plus I don't know if I completely trust those $300 128GB cards as the top brands that are known to have no issues are still in the $500-$600 range.  So I can buy 8 of those for $4000.00 then? 

Besides, the sweet spot for CF is 32/64GB…The 128's are common to drop frames, even the 1000x ones—now we're back to 12 min recording time, for $200 (transcend 64GB)

Quote from Canon Rumors forum: "I ordered a Transcend 1000x 128GB about 10 days ago. It just arrived. The fastest write time I could get was around 83MB/s. It's not useless, but it won't get 1920x1080. I'm returning it today. No big deal."

I highly doubt a large capacity SSD would have this issue.  But there's also the issue of the camera not being able to use more than 128GB..so that's another issue we may be faced with >:(

I agree that they should definitely make 120% sure that it works before starting a campaign, obviously.  Also, it's easier said than done.  You can look at old threads where lots of talented people tried different things and it didn't work and they gave up.  SSD is all around, in every way, better than CF.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on November 12, 2013, 09:04:04 AM
SD is all around, in every way, better than CF.

Offtopic, sorry for that... Since i'm new to 5DM3, how is SD better than CF?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on November 12, 2013, 12:13:24 PM
Offtopic, sorry for that... Since i'm new to 5DM3, how is SD better than CF?

Sorry, that was a type-o.. I meant to say SSD, not SD

I edited my post and fixed it
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on November 12, 2013, 01:39:42 PM
Again, my needs are my needs, and other people may have completely different needs, but I would be fine with just one 128GB card, it can hold 25 minutes of 1920x1080 24p video, and I don't think I've ever shot more than that in a half-day. So, just offload and make the backups at lunch, and I'm set.
And by what you posted it seems some buyers were a bit unlucky, but from what I've read around the web the Transcend 1000x cards are usually fast enough.

I obviously prefer SSD drives, but if the adapter costs $300 I'll probably just buy a CF instead. Not saying everyone will do that, just: keep it in mind that the price of CF cards is falling rapidly, and that brings down the price people will be willing to pay for the adapter.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on November 13, 2013, 02:11:56 AM
The next generation of SD cards for 4K videos are here:
http://gizmodo.com/the-next-generation-of-sd-cards-will-guarantee-4k-video-1460724035
But of course, we have to wait for the new cameras that will offer the functionality.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kitor on November 16, 2013, 10:34:05 PM
But they are clearly writting about 30MB/s. So 4K, but not raw.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: enliten on November 17, 2013, 04:16:39 PM
I see a lot of you under the false illusion that this setup will make for faster write speeds / faster framerate at high res, remember that the bottleneck in speed is the card controller inside the camera. It won't matter if the SSD can write a 1Mb/s or 1Gb/s if the camera is limited to a maximum throughput.

There will be practically no benefit in terms of speed for this system. Any benefit found would be storage space, which could be significant over CF cards.


edit.... and I just realised that SDX essentially said the same thing I did, oh well.... no harm in repeating it :P
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Krane on January 05, 2014, 02:45:52 AM
How about speeds?
Is there even a chance that CFs will catch up with SSDs in terms of speed? Ever?
Yes, but the question isn't speed, its cost. Still, an mSAT module is just a bit larger than CF cards, and the can already reach speed of 3X what  even the fastest CF cards can. But even if that form factor is impractical for a camera, present SD cards speed still top out at 2X what your typical CF card can write, and 10X what your camera's SD card slot will allow.

What does all that tell you? That its not the cards, rather Canon's limiting and antiquated controller technology. As soon as Canon removes the lid, you can have all the glorious RAW you can handle.
I don't need speed. I'm perfectly fine with 1920x1080 RAW video, which tops at 83 MB/s. As long as I have that, I'm fine.
Of course, some people would disagree.
Like me? If you had said that 5 years ago there'd be no RAW. Or at least no way to do what you're doing right now. We always need more speed.

EDIT: for specific speed ratings
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: brechstange on January 10, 2014, 02:30:50 PM
just for notes ..
there was a CF card harddrive. ..
Called Microdrive from IBM (hilerious 8GB :D )
but still .. technical is the same..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microdrive

Cheers
Brechstange
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Jonas on January 11, 2014, 05:44:13 PM
Sorry if this has been covered already (or is stupid), but if the card controller (which I'm going to assume is a chip) in an mk3 is the road block. is there a chance it could be swapped out with a replacement one for say a 1d C? Maybe swap out the entire card slot assembly at the same time and get support for CF2?

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Nenduka on January 11, 2014, 06:03:06 PM
Sorry if this has been covered already (or is stupid), but if the card controller (which I'm going to assume is a chip) in an mk3 is the road block. is there a chance it could be swapped out with a replacement one for say a 1d C? Maybe swap out the entire card slot assembly at the same time and get support for CF2?


And how exactly would the firmware support this new controller chip?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on January 11, 2014, 06:25:12 PM
More importantly: how exactly would the hardware support this new controller chip?

A camera isn't built like a computer with standardised interfaces, connections, protocols.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: PressureFM on January 11, 2014, 08:20:44 PM
More importantly: how exactly would the hardware support this new controller chip?

A camera isn't built like a computer with standardised interfaces, connections, protocols.

Not to mention firmware and software related issues.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Jonas on January 12, 2014, 09:20:10 AM
@Nenduka I'm not quite sure, I guess I thought it may be possible to extract the part of the 1D C firmware that controls that and swap it out with what currently controls the 5D mk3.

@SDX That is why I was asking as you guys all know way more about it than me, I know (only from tinkering with computers) that sometimes parts can be unexpectedly swapped out with others, but have zero idea if the same freakish luck applies to cameras.

@pressurefm I figured that software mightn't be as large of a problem as magic lantern would be the software no?

Like I said, it may be a stupid idea, but I thought it better to throw it out there and have people smarter than me discuss whether it could work.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on January 12, 2014, 09:29:59 AM
@Nenduka I'm not quite sure, I guess I thought it may be possible to extract the part of the 1D C firmware that controls that and swap it out with what currently controls the 5D mk3.

And who should do that? Messing around with firmware is no-go area for ML's devs. And messing around with pro stuff (1D C) on top of it? There are some hints Canon will hunt down those involved. Canon tolerated ML's efforts (until now) by doing nothing for/against the project.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Jonas on January 12, 2014, 12:00:32 PM
And who should do that? Messing around with firmware is no-go area for ML's devs. And messing around with pro stuff (1D C) on top of it? There are some hints Canon will hunt down those involved. Canon tolerated ML's efforts (until now) by doing nothing for/against the project.

So it's a no go area, understood. Didn't want to jeopardise ML, was just asking the question ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Krane on January 13, 2014, 02:53:13 AM
And who should do that? Messing around with firmware is no-go area for ML's devs. And messing around with pro stuff (1D C) on top of it? There are some hints Canon will hunt down those involved. Canon tolerated ML's efforts (until now) by doing nothing for/against the project.
Well I purchased my Canon 5D MK III over the Panasonic AF-100 because of ML. So I'm at least one customer Canon can be thankful to ML for.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on January 13, 2014, 05:53:01 PM
@Krane, u're far from being alone, in that regard :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Ameet148 on January 25, 2014, 03:03:49 PM
I was thinking completely getting rid of the digic  processor and the buffer memory with a miniITX PC running i7 and that would either directly control the sensor and the lens system or emulate the canon motherboard hardware completely.

This will require an interface for the PC to work with the canon hardware and it can be canon firmware free (which justifies the earlier name canon mark free XD).And all this to record on high frames rates on RAID SSDs.



Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hdx on January 25, 2014, 03:30:21 PM
Go for it!! Oh wait... You were just thinking without having needed knowledge, right? FYI, it is almost impossible to do.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on January 25, 2014, 04:20:50 PM
When it comes to that, you can just build your own camera ground up, apertus style.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ilguercio on January 25, 2014, 04:26:50 PM
I was thinking completely getting rid of the digic  processor and the buffer memory with a miniITX PC running i7 and that would either directly control the sensor and the lens system or emulate the canon motherboard hardware completely.

This will require an interface for the PC to work with the canon hardware and it can be canon firmware free (which justifies the earlier name canon mark free XD).And all this to record on high frames rates on RAID SSDs.
Why not hooking a dishwasher to that as well?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: alsey7 on January 27, 2014, 07:46:09 AM
I was thinking completely getting rid of the digic  processor and the buffer memory with a miniITX PC running i7 and that would either directly control the sensor and the lens system or emulate the canon motherboard hardware completely.

This will require an interface for the PC to work with the canon hardware and it can be canon firmware free (which justifies the earlier name canon mark free XD).And all this to record on high frames rates on RAID SSDs.


And I suppose you still aim to build this camera with magic
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on January 27, 2014, 03:11:41 PM
I was thinking completely getting rid of the digic  processor and the buffer memory with a miniITX PC running i7 and that would either directly control the sensor and the lens system or emulate the canon motherboard hardware completely.

This will require an interface for the PC to work with the canon hardware and it can be canon firmware free (which justifies the earlier name canon mark free XD).And all this to record on high frames rates on RAID SSDs.

Cool idea and it can be done I'm sure but it's just...reinventing the wheel. I wish you lots of time. Good luck!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on January 28, 2014, 12:22:04 PM
Just so you get an idea of why everybody is going at you so harshly: what you're proposing is to design a camera from scratch, using a sensor salvaged from an existing camera, having to reverse-engineer all the communication protocols of the sensor. Designing a camera is hard enough as it is, even when you have all the documentation for the parts you're using. It's basically impossible if you don't have that documentation.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Krane on January 31, 2014, 04:03:07 PM
I was thinking completely getting rid of the digic  processor and the buffer memory with a miniITX PC running i7 and that would either directly control the sensor and the lens system or emulate the canon motherboard hardware completely.

This will require an interface for the PC to work with the canon hardware and it can be canon firmware free (which justifies the earlier name canon mark free XD).And all this to record on high frames rates on RAID SSDs.
An interesting if not original idea. Actually many manufacturers have been offering that paradigm for a very long time.  In fact, entire industries are based on it. Definitely unique as far as cameras are concerned though.

The only thing you left out would be the financial incentive for Canon to offer such a device, Which heretofore has maintained a pretty tightly closed and exclusive market.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: IMF on March 03, 2014, 12:26:43 AM
Back to the original intent:
So to the people who are knowledgable about the electronics.  Is building a CF to SSD interface that would give us larger capacity and more reliable writing of raw files impossible?  A hack that allows the SSD to emulate the CF card?  I can't believe that this wouldn't sell like crazy.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Samuel H on March 03, 2014, 12:25:05 PM
In theory, it's possible. In practice, Canon seems to be doing off-spec that makes this very, very difficult, unless you have insider info on what it is that Canon is doing off-spec.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: aalloo on May 09, 2014, 12:12:59 AM
Hi this is my first post on the topic.  I am a software engineer and have some exposure with hardware as well.  I certainly believe that CF-SSD cannot be done in any straight way.  The experiment will need some external processor that is good enough to simulate CF interface for camera, get data from camera, buffer it up in memory, and then write is to SSD through SATA/USB3/TB port.  I am willing to invest some time on this line.  However, I'll need a little help for CF interface.  I have previously worked on buffered writing and controlling of SATA interfaces, but have never played with CF interface.  If anyone is aware of CF interface, please get in touch with me at the earliest.

The idea is to create a fake/simulated CF interface that will go to camera and will connect to processor (for now, I'll use my laptop) through USB3/TB.  There will be a running program that will control the CF simulation and data coming from camera.  This program will also write explicitly to SSD through SATA.  Logically speaking the write speed can be achieved up to 350MB/s that should be good enough for 30fps 4K RAW.  But all of this is just a theory as of now.

As mentioned earlier, I'll use my laptop as "middle-man", but once I am able to achieve some results, I can move to some other small foot-print boards like Intel Minnowboard etc.  But that's longer term plan.

On the side, I really do not want to fire up any debate.  If you have to say anything about this, just send me the private message.  I'll keep the thread updated with my progress.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anDyIII on May 12, 2014, 12:47:21 AM
Quote
Logically speaking the write speed can be achieved up to 350MB/s
aalloo you have to remember that, according to specs, the 5D mark III can write to CF with a maximum throughput of 160 MB/s.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 5D3shooter on May 15, 2014, 02:16:06 PM
aalloo you have to remember that, according to specs, the 5D mark III can write to CF with a maximum throughput of 160 MB/s.

Yeah, probably won't be able to increase the speed/resolution, but recording to SSD is still the objective.  Good luck aalloo!!!!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on June 16, 2014, 09:05:11 PM
Hey aalloo, how's your experiment coming along?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: aalloo on July 15, 2014, 01:23:24 AM
I am making some progress ... I got some emulator is a very primitive stage ... however, I am not getting the data yet from the hardware hack.  I'll keep everyone posted here on further progress.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Parriao on October 10, 2014, 08:30:23 PM
anyone have updated information of the project?
I found this adapter that does exactly the opposite
http://hothardware.com/News/Walton-Chaintech-SSD-Converter-Makes-Two-CF-Cards-Act-As-Your-Hard-Drive/
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on October 11, 2014, 04:03:16 AM
"anyone have updated information of the project?
I found this adapter that does exactly the opposite
http://hothardware.com/News/Walton-Chaintech-SSD-Converter-Makes-Two-CF-Cards-Act-As-Your-Hard-Drive/"

*************
That's nothing new.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on December 14, 2014, 01:33:38 AM
Hi guys! Why nobody update this thread? Any progress?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: dubzeebass on December 14, 2014, 03:01:34 PM

Hi guys! Why nobody update this thread? Any progress?

With the limited due respect for such a question: what do you think?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on December 15, 2014, 03:21:22 AM
Off topic on:
Quote
With the limited due respect for such a question: what do you think?
I see no respect at all! AND you don't answer! Are you here to laugh at people? I hope not!
Do you really think I was waiting for this kind of answer? You really want to know what I'm thinking? I'm thinking you are impolite on a forum!
Have a nice day!!!
Off topic: off.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: dubzeebass on December 15, 2014, 04:24:12 AM
Sorry didn't mean to hurt your feefees.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: igor-lm on January 26, 2015, 07:16:42 AM
Hi everyone.!
I am also very interested in such adapter and I started a VOTE in separate topic. Please share your opinion as I expected more replies. http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=14350.0
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: igor-lm on January 28, 2015, 06:26:59 AM
Found some SATA to PATA chips and already send inquiry about practical speed of them. Have a look:

1. Marvel 88SA8040/88SA8052  (http://www.marvell.com/storage/system-solutions/sata-to-pata-bridge.jsp)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs23.postimg.org%2Fad2j8y5jb%2F88_SA8040.jpg&hash=132767e029601b126512dc91b6003450) (http://postimg.org/image/ad2j8y5jb/)

2. ACARD ARC-772 (http://www.acard.com/english/fb01-product.jsp?idno_no=211&prod_no=ARC%20772&type1_idno=8&ino=61)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs8.postimg.org%2Fyhtvcz78x%2F2007122793627271772.jpg&hash=8c96db69a650182e5615705625418fb1) (http://postimg.org/image/yhtvcz78x/)

3. JMicron JMH330/JMH330S (http://www.jmicron.com/product0206.html)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs17.postimg.org%2Fjmukmtfln%2Fjmd3308ao8acf.jpg&hash=3125235f81e3569d11d5e5320bc97dd5) (http://postimg.org/image/jmukmtfln/)

4. Genesys Logic GL831A (http://www.genesyslogic.com/en/product_view.php?show=2)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fs27.postimg.org%2Fxn4dwlpdr%2FGENESYS_GL831.jpg&hash=c5841611d2cd3823a25848f641b1ed37) (http://postimg.org/image/xn4dwlpdr/)

They are all one chip solution. Soon I will get replies from manufactures and compile it in a comparison chart.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: DeafEyeJedi on January 31, 2015, 05:41:17 PM
Interesting...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on February 03, 2015, 12:40:03 PM
Your collection of PATA -> SATA chips is nice.
But, you still need active conversion from the non-True-IDE CF to True-IDE mode.

Does anybody, by any chance, know which CF-mode the host controller uses? That seems like the fundamental challenge people fail at figuring out here.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: extremelypoorfilmaker on February 08, 2015, 11:52:20 AM
Guys, you will never cease to amaze me. I feel like i am assisting at history of filmmaking while it's being written
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: albert-e on February 08, 2015, 04:29:53 PM
"Your collection of PATA -> SATA chips is nice.
But, you still need active conversion from the non-True-IDE CF to True-IDE mode.

Does anybody, by any chance, know which CF-mode the host controller uses? That seems like the fundamental challenge people fail at figuring out here."

True-IDE mode. And after all that, you still need help from the ML developer for some firmware changes.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: SDX on February 08, 2015, 07:00:33 PM
I'm trying to figure out where exactly the challenge is. Does anybody know more exactly where it fails. True-IDE mode shouldn't be a problem to interface. I suppose the host controller doesn't stick exactly to the CF specs then? Correct?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: igor-lm on February 09, 2015, 10:43:33 PM
Support of Marvell chip distributor said that slave or host revisions are existing. (So right version should be used in application)
The same corresponds to other chip makers but some of them are bi directional.

I tried to understand about True IDE mode in CF specification and found only 3.0 (http://rumkin.com/reference/aquapad/media/cfspc3_0.pdf) publicly available. (To early to pay 100$ for Revision 6.0 (http://www.compactflash.org/cfa-specifications))
If some one can help to understand it I will save a lot of time.

Soon I will define the best chip and order development board (demo board) to start testing.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on February 14, 2015, 11:13:16 PM
Hi Guys!
We have done first step, the working prototype:
http://imgur.com/rF2MB3i (http://imgur.com/rF2MB3i)
Yes, ridiculous speed on usb2.0 CF card reader and normal hdd, but be patient! As you we too are anxious to see it working on usb3.0 and ssd!  :D
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: mWaltari on February 15, 2015, 07:49:25 AM
Cool!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: DeafEyeJedi on February 15, 2015, 08:39:06 AM
Really nice work, @Rikoshet!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Kharak on February 15, 2015, 08:50:57 PM
Nice!

Please show us a video of this.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on February 15, 2015, 10:28:13 PM
Well, my friend, who is building the prototype, is in Japan, I'm in Italy. He does not have an USB3.0 card reader and ssd. Tomorrow he will ship the unit to me and I'll make all testing and after will try it with my 5dmk3. I think next weekend I'll have some news.

Question to moderators: why my post must be approved by a moderator? This does not happen before...Thank you!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: beanz on February 16, 2015, 01:54:08 AM
Good to see this moving ahead. Nice work Riko!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: extremelypoorfilmaker on February 16, 2015, 08:59:37 PM
Grande riko!!!! Cosa dobbiamo fare per fare avere all'amico giapponese USB3.0 card reader and ssd? Credo che una rapida colletta fra tutti noi, felici utilizzatori di magic lantern riuscirebbe nell'intento no?
 
Great news riko! what shall we do to get our japanese friend the USB3.0 card reader and ssd? I believe a quick donation between all the Magic Lanter user will suffice! :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on February 16, 2015, 09:27:35 PM
Non e' necessario!  :) Ha spedito oggi l'unita a me.  ;) Quando arriva faccio subito i test di velocita'!  ;D

It's not necessary!  :) He shipped the unit to me.  ;) Once here will do speed test!  ;D
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: beauchampy on February 21, 2015, 10:48:31 PM
Fantastic! Please do keep us updated!  :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Kharak on February 22, 2015, 12:18:38 AM
Looking forward to this!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anDyIII on February 23, 2015, 01:00:34 AM
Caro Rikoshet, sono italiano pure io.  :)
Perito elettronico e amministratore del gruppo Magic Lantern Italia su facebook, se hai bisogno di una mano o se vuoi spiegare il progetto anche agli italiani iscriviti pure al gruppo.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/magiclanternitalia/

I'm the admin of the Magic Lantern Italia user group on facebook. If you are interested in sharing your project with italian users join the group.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on February 26, 2015, 12:52:50 AM
Ciao Casanova!
Thanks, I've joined the group! :)

So, for now, with Marvell chip, we have about 85-90MB/s write speed, pretty disappointing... The main problem is the adapter is not seen by the cam, like it happened to other guys on this thread. The solution is to go FPGA way to emulate a CF or software way...for now I'm waiting an answer from g3gg0 for 2 days. I'm sure he have personal life so ...patience.

Going FPGA way may be time consuming so the cost may go high. The time is the key factor in this era, cams that uses CF become less, CFast will dominate, so the need for this adapter may disappear...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: g3gg0 on March 08, 2015, 01:24:43 PM
hm what answer did you expect? :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jose_ugs on March 09, 2015, 10:48:27 AM
Going FPGA way may be time consuming so the cost may go high. The time is the key factor in this era, cams that uses CF become less, CFast will dominate, so the need for this adapter may disappear...

Well, 5DM3 and friends are not getting a CFast anyways :D so maybe you should go for the FPGA if you have the know-how, time, etc...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on March 09, 2015, 02:50:45 PM
g3gg0, I've PM-ed you. did you receive the message?

Question to moderators: why my post must be approved by a moderator? This does not happen before...Thank you!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: chmee on March 09, 2015, 04:05:54 PM
its not the point about 90-95mb/sec (this is ok, cause i can record scenes without formating/copying files all the day. last months i recorded a acoustic guitarist (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MyE2byryX7A), i decided to NOT use mlv/raw because of the repeating longer recordings, every track needs about 10 trials), i assume you reached the portlimit of the 5dIII - but if its not recognized by a 5DIII, its not working. so, finally no step further.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Rikoshet on April 09, 2015, 07:07:27 PM
Ok, can't find anyone capable to program fPGA so I'll close my project!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anDyIII on May 13, 2015, 02:42:59 PM
Hi guys, look at what I've found today.

http://www.4kshooters.net/2015/05/13/use-any-ssd-on-your-4k-cfast-2-0-camera-with-the-c-box/
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: DeafEyeJedi on May 13, 2015, 05:49:25 PM
Thanks for sharing @anDyIII and good find!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: arrinkiiii on May 13, 2015, 08:54:10 PM

Good stuff!!! Wend hit the street 500 is a little bit expensive... or not.   


Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Markus on May 13, 2015, 09:09:32 PM
Cool CF version?  ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bayard1965 on May 14, 2015, 12:19:13 AM
I asked Clifton Stommel about this possibility.

Hi,
I just wanted to know if this system could work with a 5Dmark3 (using MagicLantern), i mean interfacing with normal CF cards, not only with CFast 2.0 cards.
Regards,

Answer:
We are looking into that, as well as XQD and SD. I think it's safe to say that the response this campaign is getting has proven that there is an interest in being able to record straight to SSD on any camera. Once the campaign closes, we'll be allocating resources to various avenues depending on which has the most room for growth and the most public interest (and obviously, getting the CFast boxes out the door and to their backers is #1 priority).
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kitor on May 14, 2015, 12:32:24 PM
The joke is that CFast is just smaller from-factor SATA disk with different connector, so this guy is trying to sell adapter that has two connectors, cables and maybe a few elements for voltage stabilization for $500. And of course such adapters exists for less than 100 USD (still overprinced for me). That's why it works, and why situation is completely different between SATA/ATA <> CF.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anDyIII on May 17, 2015, 12:28:15 AM
I know.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anDyIII on May 17, 2015, 01:10:53 AM
By the way... The CFast adapter with light-blue cable that the guy used for his project looks like this one ( http://www.microsatacables.com/cfast-breakout-cable ) without the power cable.
It looks like he bridged a few pins inside the adapter ore something similar, so that the camera can recognize it as a real CFast and send the data via sata cable.
As kitor said, the project is not something extraordinary, just a box to power the SSDs.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: DeafEyeJedi on May 17, 2015, 06:45:36 AM
Definitely following this thread... Keep it up @anDyIII!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: rsousa on May 21, 2015, 01:14:39 PM
There is a kick starter for CFast to dual SSD here.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/648471422/rig-friendly-c-box-system-use-any-ssd-on-your-cfas

They did it and (mass) production should start soon!
Hopefully they will do a CF to dual SSD next!!!!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anDyIII on May 21, 2015, 02:11:42 PM
We already know what project, and I'm working with that guy together with another company on the CF version.
I'm planning to do a modular version, so C-Box and CFast or CF converter to connect via SATA cable.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: rsousa on May 21, 2015, 03:35:41 PM
Excellent!

Then 5V power can always use this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/V-mount-V-lock-Battery-Power-Supply-Splitter-Plate-for-DSLR-rig-5D2-5D3-7D-BMCC/271866465034?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20140107083358%26meid%3D4b7316c9004a43ab8662be9eb88b911f%26pid%3D100011%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D10%26sd%3D271852930504

No cheap altogether but very practical. One battery for all and SSD recorder!!!

Great improvement for ML RAW recording for sure!
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: DeafEyeJedi on May 21, 2015, 07:36:17 PM
Nice progress so far everyone on board... [emoji108]
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: goldenchild9to5 on May 23, 2015, 06:22:34 AM
Nice Team...  8)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: tigwd on August 14, 2015, 11:35:47 PM
Sorry for adding one more necropost to this topic but after skimming through it I'm wondering: is anyone actively working on this still?

A few random thoughts:
One application I'd have for this is events I currently record to standard 1080p24 AVC clips, typically totaling 200GB of footage. Now that I'm comfortable and experienced shooting raw, have adequate workstations to handle the post production, and like to make things difficult, I've been incorporating more and more raw video. Shooting it all raw would require 16+ 256GB cards (or 8+ cards and download/reuse throughout the event, but at times shooting might be disrupted by waiting for 150MB/s downloads—and I fear a mistake in the field might lead to lost data).

Using an external battery pack to power each camera (DR-E6) and SSD (USB to SATA power adapter) would provide a fairly simple all-day shooting solution, once you can connect the card slot and SSD. My PayPal account and I are ready for anyone who can make that connection happen.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bbhl on August 16, 2015, 03:51:45 PM
Hi, All!

Some findings for a subj:

CFAST to CF interface: http://www.duplicator4u.com/u-reach-cfast-to-cf-adapter-intelligent-cf-series-use-2-pack/
CFAST to SATA: http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/Micro-SATA-to-SATA-express-card-converts-a-1-8-drive-such-as-SSD-to-a/211886_566248397.html
Sounds like "ready to go"?

Another option:
PATA/ZIF to CF adapter: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-1-8-PATA-ZIF-HDD-to-1-8-toshiba-IDE-CF-50pin-adapter-CABLE-/251211430510
PATA/ZIF to SATA: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Half-Slim-SATA-22-PIN-SSD-3-3V-SSD-to-1-8-CE-ZIF-PATA-40PIN-Converter-Board-/261381358399?hash=item3cdb8b033f

Speed will be always in question though. I had deal with: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Extreme-Speed-SD-SDHC-SDXC-MMC-to-Compact-Flash-CF-Type-II-Card-Reader-Adapter-/161154174083?hash=item2585898c83
Which drops SD speed 50% off... :(

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bbhl on August 16, 2015, 04:18:38 PM
It is possible to use laptop hdd even (?): http://www.personal-view.com/talks/discussion/11547/cfast-card-reverse-engineering/p1

CFAST to SATA (right copy+past): http://www.ebay.com/itm/CFAST-DATA-Breakout-Cable/261665769401?_trksid=p2047675.c100009.m1982&_trkparms=aid%3D777000%26algo%3DABA.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D29981%26meid%3Da87b420d157140689d17c89f119acca4%26pid%3D100009%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D1%26mehot%3Dag%26sd%3D261977300774
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on August 16, 2015, 06:30:49 PM
May I ask why you consider cFAST-to-SATA as a solution? ML supported cams don't have any of these interfaces ...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bbhl on August 17, 2015, 02:55:21 AM
It is not CFAST to SATA, but CF to CFAST (U-Reach CFast to CF adapter), then cable CFAST to SATA. CFAST, as far as I understand is the SATA in a compact box.
The "U-Reach CFast to CF adapter" actually is the CF to SATA (CFAST) = matching the subj: "CF-to-SATA hardware interface..."
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: bbhl on August 18, 2015, 01:38:57 PM
Feedback from UREACH... :(

It is not bi-directional.

We have two kinds of designs to support Cfast copy.
One of them is our CF duplicator.
http://www.ureach-inc.com/product/goods_detail.php?goods_id=71
As you see, the sockets on the machine is changeable.
To support Cfast copy, just change the socket to Cfast will be OK.

This machine can support up to 3.9GB/min read/write speed.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: anDyIII on August 28, 2015, 02:50:07 AM
I worked with U-Reach EU for a few weeks trying to build what we need, but from tests it came out that the adapter only works in True IDE mode with a maximum speed of 45 MB/s.
I tried to develop something together with them, but they said they are not able such kind of converter, so now I'm trying to create on my own with an italian startup.
A full aluminium CFast to SSD converter is on its way, too.
Stay tuned.

New Ideas and considerations are welcome  ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: NyaChan on January 25, 2016, 03:10:03 AM
Hi, we are a storage device manufacturer! We already make a prototype of a low cost SSD to CFast / CF and more all in one solution. See you soon in the market! Welcome to ask for more information ;D
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: DeafEyeJedi on January 25, 2016, 06:03:47 AM
Link to site at the least?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: VanGogh7 on January 26, 2016, 12:30:18 AM
cold it be this project

https://hackaday.io/project/9010-prototype-a-cf-to-ssd-converter
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: falkwyn on February 14, 2016, 03:42:43 PM
Hello guys, got this feedback from the folks at CBOX
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/648471422/rig-friendly-c-box-system-use-any-ssd-on-your-cfas

My original message

"Hello,
I've been using Magic Lantern on a Canon 5DIII for a few years now and am very happy with the results, I use the setup for professional jobs and it works very well.
Just one down side,   I would love to be able to get stable 50 to 60 Fps raw video at 1920 x 1080 but CF card speeds max out at just below 100 MBps,
this speed limit also creates a bit of a bottleneck when offloading.
Have you looked into making a product similar to yours for Compact Flash that has high transfer speeds?  If so, please let me know.
Thank you,"

and very prompt reply

"It is our understanding that the CF bus on the 5D3 is limited to around 100mb/s so even with a faster media storage option you'd likely not get better results. Clifton uses ML raw on his 5D3 frequently and he's looked thoroughly into this very issue.

It really is a great camera and the ML raw files are awesome. But without some pretty serious hardware modification, the camera likely won't perform the way you're looking for.

 
Sincerely,
 
Jayne
Atoch C2S Support"


Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: jtvision on February 15, 2016, 04:30:38 AM
599$?. Too expensive. I can get Blackmagic Video Assist for lower price. This records 1080p@60fps.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kitor on February 26, 2016, 01:44:09 PM
I written this already: CBOX is nothing more than overpriced two connectors and nice case. CFast is just SATA in different form-factor. They won't help you as they designed nothing, and all they are writing about possibilities and costs is just PR.

What you need here is somehow bridge CF IDE implementation with SATA drive, that requires creating some custom circuits.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: hindra on December 30, 2016, 05:27:32 AM
Did we ever get a cf card extender to work? Can we use raspberry pi as the controller to both act as a cf card to the camera and unload it to the ssd inside a USB 3.0 enclosure attached to the raspberry pi? Pi can power the drive so we only have to worry about power to the pi.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kitor on December 31, 2016, 06:19:23 PM
Since when RPi has USB 3.0? And no, you can't do it.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: beauchampy on April 25, 2017, 05:08:25 PM
Something I came across the other day (but probably nothing)..

The Red One CF module seems to be some kind of CF -> SSD converter?

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2Fwq0vRot.jpg&hash=2078487eb9de0707bf4410ecdf258595)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on April 25, 2017, 06:19:30 PM
Does it work as an UDMA-7 device emulating a CF-card?
The video lacks some information but it looks like its connected to an SATA output port and CF-Card is the storage media.
The people here are looking for the other way round.

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kitor on May 10, 2017, 03:53:50 PM
Standard IDE-SATA adapter inside. I have similar one, identical from-factor.
And yes, it's definitely CF card -> CFast (SATA) adapter.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: alexidoia on June 15, 2017, 02:51:39 PM
Hello,

So there is still no solution ?
Me too I love the raw feature of ML but I can't use it if I have to change my card every 10 minutes for 2K recording on 64Gig card (which is not cheap).
This is really what lacks this camera.

Alex
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Markus on June 18, 2017, 08:32:41 AM
Buy a 256gb card. Use 10bit or compressed 14bit and get up to 90+ min recordings one one Card.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Dmitriy84759 on July 11, 2020, 01:21:47 PM
This is also not a good solution, Markus. It is quite expensive - for the cost of two Cf 256Gb (total 512Gb) card you could but great samsung ssd with total 2Gb space.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deanziyangyu on July 13, 2020, 06:03:52 PM
Hate to break the silence, but this is probably the closest we have gotten so far...
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fftp.bmp.ovh%2Fimgs%2F2020%2F07%2F95c50fab6a557d62.jpeg&hash=c6984fd7d4c321cf815b47fb08954759)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fftp.bmp.ovh%2Fimgs%2F2020%2F07%2F130b7f745a9e8ac1.jpeg&hash=7c6be44883f2f09b31802d3a6bba9a20)
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fftp.bmp.ovh%2Fimgs%2F2020%2F07%2Fac72de1191346c1b.jpeg&hash=92088aec589b3a91a47c9908a3e64c8a)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deanziyangyu on July 13, 2020, 06:16:45 PM
Simply put, it is Toshiba 1.8" hard drive 50 pin CF adapter -> CE / 40 pin ZIF IDE ribbon cable -> JMicron 20330 ATA 150MB/s to SATA solution -> mSATA SSD (pictured here a Samsung PM830 256GB version).

The assembly was not successfully powered up by a USB3 CF card reader in computer. Plugged into the 5D2, the "format CF card" options posed up initially, then turn into a "CF ERR" on the top plate LCD. The cable stays flush through the card slot.

The SSD had been partitioned as Master Boot Record and formatted as FAT32 by restoring from another SanDisk 1067x CF card. Works fully through a USB3 to SATA bridge, has sequential read / write speed unto 400MB/s.

Two possible reasons for it to not work fully:
1. The camera's card slot only supplying 3.3V instead of 5V (yet the bridge should operate on 3.3V as well, so it might just be the SSD)
2. One side of the CF connector is not perfectly aligned with the slot, so it might have a electrical connection issue.

All components should be searchable on Amazon. The price of the 256GB SSD plus all the adapters is close to 1/2 of SanDisk Extreme Pro 1067x 64GB, so probably worth the risk.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 12, 2020, 11:34:16 AM
I have a new Idea.

Since the CF slot is in the IDE standard, I decided to first convert the CF slot into a standard IDE 44 pin slot so I can attach IDE hard drives
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elecfans.com%2Farticle%2FUploadPic%2F2009-1%2F20091150273548532.jpg&hash=c0b1cc0c98504c85d146679b18d92a04)

After I have the IDE 44 Slot, I should be able to convert it into SATA (there are boards with good price on this).

I might have to make my own cable, since I am in China right now it should be easy to reach.
Let me try if this works.

Reply if you see any problems  :o
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on August 12, 2020, 12:00:16 PM
AFAIK UDMA-7 has never been ported to IDE/PATA hard drives ...
Really don't know if there are any PATA-SATA converters able "to speak" UDMA-7.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 12, 2020, 05:42:46 PM
AFAIK UDMA-7 has never been ported to IDE/PATA hard drives ...
Really don't know if there are any PATA-SATA converters able "to speak" UDMA-7.

Good point, I went back to check the datasheet of the converter (JM20330)

http://www.users.on.net/~fzabkar/temp/JM20330_Spec_Rev.-2.3.pdf

There are descriptions about the Ultra DMA operation mode on page 19.
000: Device Mode 100MB/s.
001: Device Mode 133MB/s.
010: Device Mode 150MB/s. (default)
011: Reserved.
100: Host Mode 100MB/s.
101: Host Mode 133MB/s.
110: Host Mode 150MB/s.
111: Reserved.

By putting the jumper between these three pins, users are able to select the UDMA operation.
Good Point again, but no need to worry about. ;D
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 13, 2020, 07:41:28 AM
Simply put, it is Toshiba 1.8" hard drive 50 pin CF adapter -> CE / 40 pin ZIF IDE ribbon cable -> JMicron 20330 ATA 150MB/s to SATA solution -> mSATA SSD (pictured here a Samsung PM830 256GB version).

The assembly was not successfully powered up by a USB3 CF card reader in computer. Plugged into the 5D2, the "format CF card" options posed up initially, then turn into a "CF ERR" on the top plate LCD. The cable stays flush through the card slot.

The SSD had been partitioned as Master Boot Record and formatted as FAT32 by restoring from another SanDisk 1067x CF card. Works fully through a USB3 to SATA bridge, has sequential read / write speed unto 400MB/s.

Two possible reasons for it to not work fully:
1. The camera's card slot only supplying 3.3V instead of 5V (yet the bridge should operate on 3.3V as well, so it might just be the SSD)
2. One side of the CF connector is not perfectly aligned with the slot, so it might have a electrical connection issue.

All components should be searchable on Amazon. The price of the 256GB SSD plus all the adapters is close to 1/2 of SanDisk Extreme Pro 1067x 64GB, so probably worth the risk.

I did some research on yours. You are actually very close to the solution, the external power supply is what you are missing.

Also what you need to find is the power voltage select pins on the JM20330, the default is running under 3.3v which is obvious low for a SATA device. There is another version of this broad have a jumper or switch to select the power voltage. From your description, "cannot format" is probably because of under voltage since camera is already "found" there is something in its slot.

The CF slot should not be able to provide more than 500mA of current (According to Sandisk) and most SSD nowadays are using far more than 500mA, external power supply is highly recommended.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fr.photo.store.qq.com%2Fpsc%3F%2FV135HAIq0MFAgy%2F45NBuzDIW489QBoVep5mcZn8gGr9APif8Mo8rdc5VNnhn%2ABMPv0kfUyyxppD1P2bOfFVdNE4EdPFfQsMX4rOatRu1LErT2vBepGDKPMulzM%21%2Fr&hash=07488b47abce6fe3b8e2902be7bd62e8)

Later I found some cheaper and easier way to do a conversion. The parts are on the way, lets wait and see. :-\
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 18, 2020, 04:31:14 AM
Giving some more pinouts here.
What I am thinking is disconnect pin 38 and 39 and connect the power in the end so even if the power supply have problems, it wouldn't damage the camera.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fpinoutguide.com%2Fvisual%2Fgen%2Fata_sata_zif.jpg&hash=99db13c5ae099accbdb96a28a4143743)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: deanziyangyu on August 20, 2020, 05:56:05 AM
Giving some more pinouts here.
What I am thinking is disconnect pin 38 and 39 and connect the power in the end so even if the power supply have problems, it wouldn't damage the camera.
Some really interesting progress you’ve made. Let’s see if you can take this further :)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 26, 2020, 09:06:16 AM
Still making my own cable. Giving out more pinouts

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fi.pinimg.com%2Foriginals%2Fec%2F76%2F5d%2Fec765db8bc7a6e5e3effd0f08339b335.jpg&hash=b9c602da58bbf8b47e9fb56c3da97d59)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 28, 2020, 04:14:59 AM
This is what I get so far.
It seems working but it is not. What I am pretty sure is every wires are connected, but not sure they are connected correctly.
I followed the picture I posted in the last post and connect the rest. The computer is still not reading the card but the LED seems start flashing.
Maybe it is time to make a PCB board for this? I only used one resister instead of four.

Not sure what does that flashing LED means. If you know, please help :'( For this, I didn't use any external power supply.

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.qpic.cn%2Fpsc%3F%2FV135HAIq0MFAgy%2FruAMsa53pVQWN7FLK88i5o.hDMXMzmB325L1JG32EytGxeDTqg%2ApyO28vrkCejnskR5CI.gPq6HKunHnlJ7YhwKFZ8HS.CgCa3XumVmCHL8%21%2Fb%26amp%3Bbo%3DQAZVCEAGVQgBByA%21%26amp%3Brf%3Dviewer_4&hash=e2a79f5e9553387aed6574ecb42dd5ad)

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 71m363nd3r on August 28, 2020, 05:47:12 AM

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fm.qpic.cn%2Fpsc%3F%2FV135HAIq0MFAgy%2FruAMsa53pVQWN7FLK88i5o.hDMXMzmB325L1JG32EytGxeDTqg%2ApyO28vrkCejnskR5CI.gPq6HKunHnlJ7YhwKFZ8HS.CgCa3XumVmCHL8%21%2Fb%26amp%3Bbo%3DQAZVCEAGVQgBByA%21%26amp%3Brf%3Dviewer_4&hash=e2a79f5e9553387aed6574ecb42dd5ad)


hey but your wires are touching each other... this is not good.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on August 28, 2020, 06:17:12 AM
Those wires are coated with an insulating layer. Nothing to worry about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiring_pencil
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 28, 2020, 07:16:53 AM
Those wires are coated with an insulating layer. Nothing to worry about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiring_pencil

The truth  ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 28, 2020, 07:24:00 AM
I think I should just connect every pins to pins instead of doing resister tricks. But I need to get some rest before doing it for the next time.
This one I spend two half days on flying wires. Really stabbing my eyes (each wires only have 0.1mm) lololol. But good to see LED are flashing. The red LED flashing means there are signals trying to read and write.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: DeafEyeJedi on August 28, 2020, 09:42:01 PM
Digging the progress so far. It's definitely feeling warmer as far as becoming a true hack. SSD's are so cheap those days and is easily expendable/replaceable.

Would it be worth to consider to try and push this project towards into the M.2 slot if we ever get the SSD's phase to work?  8)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: names_are_hard on August 28, 2020, 10:04:45 PM
SATA should be fast enough to saturate the camera bus (I assume?  Didn't check).  There are M.2 drives that are logically SATA, and SATA-M.2 physical adapters so you can connect them direct with a SATA cable.  So if this works for SATA SSD it likely works for M.2 as well.  But not PCIe M.2, that's a whole other problem.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on August 28, 2020, 10:27:50 PM
Slowest SATA mode spec: 150 MByte/s net transfer rate.
As written above: I seriously doubt the existence of any PATA-to-SATA device able to handle UDMA-7. And UDMA-6 spec is up to 133 MByte/s.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: ArcziPL on August 28, 2020, 10:34:25 PM
Maybe it is time to make a PCB board for this? I only used one resister instead of four.
Unfortunately, I have no idea about CF and no time to go into the topic, but just quickly checked the pins with pull-ups.

https://www.syslogic.de/ProductDocuments/deu/Product-Manual---503-CF.pdf

Quote
-PDIAG
(True IDE Mode)
In the True IDE Mode, this input/output is the Pass Diagnostic signal
in the Master/Slave handshake protocol.

Others (/WE, /CS1, /DMACK) should be plain inputs. Try at least to add a second, separate resistor for PDIAG. No idea what and when this pin does, if it's used in both directions in True IDE (sorry, really no time) but as a quick check it might be worth trying...
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 30, 2020, 05:07:09 PM
Unfortunately, I have no idea about CF and no time to go into the topic, but just quickly checked the pins with pull-ups.

https://www.syslogic.de/ProductDocuments/deu/Product-Manual---503-CF.pdf

Others (/WE, /CS1, /DMACK) should be plain inputs. Try at least to add a second, separate resistor for PDIAG. No idea what and when this pin does, if it's used in both directions in True IDE (sorry, really no time) but as a quick check it might be worth trying...

Sure
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 30, 2020, 05:28:24 PM
Okay, new plan.
I decide to learn how to use altium designer and make a PCB board for this.
No more stupid fly wires.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 71m363nd3r on August 30, 2020, 11:26:33 PM
Okay, new plan.
I decide to learn how to use altium designer and make a PCB board for this.
No more stupid fly wires.

https://kicad-pcb.org/
 (https://kicad-pcb.org/)
https://www.tinycad.net/
 (https://www.tinycad.net/)
https://easyeda.com/ (https://easyeda.com/)

good luck
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on August 31, 2020, 04:18:48 AM
https://kicad-pcb.org/
 (https://kicad-pcb.org/)
https://www.tinycad.net/
 (https://www.tinycad.net/)
https://easyeda.com/ (https://easyeda.com/)

good luck

Thank you XD
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: gzillarocks on September 04, 2020, 10:28:26 AM
Hey Aperture Science- I'm really hoping that you can find a way to adapt from CF to SATA, or CF to MSATA, for cameras with Magic Lantern. I will definitely be following this forum to see how you progress! I did find this product online that works with a Canon c200, but I'm not sure if this device can work on a DSLR with Magic Lantern or not. Either way, I wanted to send you the product link so you can check it out and maybe it can be helpful to you: https://store.n.ki/products/solidpod  - The product is called SolidPod

CF cards are so much more expensive than SSD's, and I've found forums on here going back to 2013 with people trying to find a way to adapt from CF to SATA, but without a lot of luck. Hopefully with the newer MSATA, or NVME devices it might be easier to create an adapter that works for Canon cameras with magic lantern.

I would also check out what RED did with their MAG recording devices. It looks like they are using some type of adapter inside the housing- that might be useful to you too.

Let me know if there is anything I can help with, I will be following along for sure.


Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: gzillarocks on September 04, 2020, 10:37:09 AM

Here is a really cool video breaking down the interior of a RED MAG storage device. I'm not entirely sure if this will be helpful, but I think it could be insightful for how they work. Maybe the idea can be applied in it's own way using MSATA for Canon cameras with Magic Lantern. 
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on September 07, 2020, 06:28:48 PM
Hey Aperture Science- I'm really hoping that you can find a way to adapt from CF to SATA, or CF to MSATA, for cameras with Magic Lantern. I will definitely be following this forum to see how you progress! I did find this product online that works with a Canon c200, but I'm not sure if this device can work on a DSLR with Magic Lantern or not. Either way, I wanted to send you the product link so you can check it out and maybe it can be helpful to you: https://store.n.ki/products/solidpod  - The product is called SolidPod

CF cards are so much more expensive than SSD's, and I've found forums on here going back to 2013 with people trying to find a way to adapt from CF to SATA, but without a lot of luck. Hopefully with the newer MSATA, or NVME devices it might be easier to create an adapter that works for Canon cameras with magic lantern.

I would also check out what RED did with their MAG recording devices. It looks like they are using some type of adapter inside the housing- that might be useful to you too.

Let me know if there is anything I can help with, I will be following along for sure.

Sure Sure, I checked this one long time ago. Thanks for reviewing.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on September 07, 2020, 06:51:12 PM
Few things need to clarify.
First, Canon 5Dmk3 (also include 5DS,5DSR,7D,5D2) are all using "Compact Flash" which is a type of SSD based on the IDE interface.
However Canon C200 uses "CFast 2.0" which is a type of SSD based on the SATA interface (which we used a lot on our computer nowadays)
In the same time, the socket they developed is also based on the SATA. As in the video send by gzillarocks, there is no chip set in between the socket and the mSATA.
The highest speed IDE socket can go is around 133m/s while SATA2.0 can support around 300m/s. Not to mention SATA3.0. SATA and IDE conversion need a chip set, not simply putting wires together. That is the reason why no one makes the adapter on the market since there is only a little demand on this. (Hey, professional cinema cameras are all have CF2.0 or even USB type-C installed :)

There is no Adapter on the market have the function we need, so we have to make our own :P
I am only an undergraduate freshman majors on EE, no experience on making the PCB.   But lets see how far we can get on this since I think it will work theoretically.


PS:Compact Flash can also being known as IDE 50(since there are 50 pins on it), I saw these kind of SSD before when my father was still using floppy. They have the exactly the same socket as compact flash do, just little bit longer and wider on the body. But people are not manufacture these drives anymore and because of the high selling price at that time, these kind of dives didn't sold a lot. So it is also hard to be finding in the second-hand market.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2F2e.zol-img.com.cn%2Fproduct%2F80_320x240%2F722%2Fcey82XjSVV8Q.jpg&hash=1525bdd43df8cee494990fb4c780a0d7)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 70MM13 on September 07, 2020, 07:47:55 PM
interesting!

if both card slots on the 5d3 share the same "IDE" bus, that perfectly explains the 131 MB/S "hard limit" on card-spanning recording!

nice!

and not so nice  :-\
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: rinski on September 07, 2020, 08:45:53 PM
Hello, I with the 5d3 and the 2 cards at the same time (Danne's version) I have recorded with 165 mb / s maintained 6k 15 fps 14 bits, more than 7 minutes at continuous speed, I think the 5d4 and other canon with connector mini usb 3.0 could dump the rawvideo into a ssd with its dual female usb 3.0 adapter and this one to usb male to usb-c external ssd with 500 MB / s theoretical. Thank you.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: gzillarocks on September 08, 2020, 09:01:23 PM
Few things need to clarify.
First, Canon 5Dmk3 (also include 5DS,5DSR,7D,5D2) are all using "Compact Flash" which is a type of SSD based on the IDE interface.
However Canon C200 uses "CFast 2.0" which is a type of SSD based on the SATA interface (which we used a lot on our computer nowadays)
In the same time, the socket they developed is also based on the SATA. As in the video send by gzillarocks, there is no chip set in between the socket and the mSATA.
The highest speed IDE socket can go is around 133m/s while SATA2.0 can support around 300m/s. Not to mention SATA3.0. SATA and IDE conversion need a chip set, not simply putting wires together. That is the reason why no one makes the adapter on the market since there is only a little demand on this. (Hey, professional cinema cameras are all have CF2.0 or even USB type-C installed :)

There is no Adapter on the market have the function we need, so we have to make our own :P
I am only an undergraduate freshman majors on EE, no experience on making the PCB.   But lets see how far we can get on this since I think it will work theoretically.


PS:Compact Flash can also being known as IDE 50(since there are 50 pins on it), I saw these kind of SSD before when my father was still using floppy. They have the exactly the same socket as compact flash do, just little bit longer and wider on the body. But people are not manufacture these drives anymore and because of the high selling price at that time, these kind of dives didn't sold a lot. So it is also hard to be finding in the second-hand market.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2F2e.zol-img.com.cn%2Fproduct%2F80_320x240%2F722%2Fcey82XjSVV8Q.jpg&hash=1525bdd43df8cee494990fb4c780a0d7)

This is really great information to have! Aperture Science your work is incredible.

 I have a question for everyone- I'm trying to help find a way to make an adapter work, but can someone confirm if Magic Lantern firmware bypasses any Canon specific recording (writing) protocols? I am talking to someone who has tried building one before for commerical use, but he believes that Canon has protocols that might prevent the adapter from working. Do we know if these protocols exist or what they are, and do we know if they are being bypassed or overrided by ML firmware?

  It makes sense to me that once a dummy CF card is put within the camera, even if it has an adapter leading to an external SSD, it should essentially 'trick' the camera into believing that it is recording to a normal CF card. Therefore, any protocols put in place to prevent recording to anything other than a CF Card should be bypassed anyway. But does someone have some insight into this issue, because if so I think we all might be getting close to finding a solution to external recording.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kitor on September 09, 2020, 11:21:16 AM
PS:Compact Flash can also being known as IDE 50(since there are 50 pins on it), I saw these kind of SSD before when my father was still using floppy. They have the exactly the same socket as compact flash do, just little bit longer and wider on the body. But people are not manufacture these drives anymore and because of the high selling price at that time, these kind of dives didn't sold a lot. So it is also hard to be finding in the second-hand market.
(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2F2e.zol-img.com.cn%2Fproduct%2F80_320x240%2F722%2Fcey82XjSVV8Q.jpg&hash=1525bdd43df8cee494990fb4c780a0d7)

Sorry, but you are wrong. Those SSDs depicted on photo have completely different pinout than CF, it's called 1.8 IDE. I had one of those on OQO 01+, and still own adapter that converts CF pinout so you can plug it to replace this kind of "CF connector" drive. Their connector is also slightly different so you can't just force CF card into 1.8 IDE (and 1.8 IDE drive is wider so you can't force it into CF)

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FG06nF6D.png&hash=0dd19345a4bfb345cd90ff032ca5b966)

Also, let me remind you all that CF standard has three types of operation, one of them is IDE emulation. There are cards that don't support IDE mode, CF readers/controllers also need to support this mode / talk ATA to card.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: gzillarocks on September 09, 2020, 05:17:31 PM
Sorry, but you are wrong. Those SSDs depicted on photo have completely different pinout than CF, it's called 1.8 IDE. I had one of those on OQO 01+, and still own adapter that converts CF pinout so you can plug it to replace this kind of "CF connector" drive. Their connector is also slightly different so you can't just force CF card into 1.8 IDE (and 1.8 IDE drive is wider so you can't force it into CF)

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FG06nF6D.png&hash=0dd19345a4bfb345cd90ff032ca5b966)

Also, let me remind you all that CF standard has three types of operation, one of them is IDE emulation. There are cards that don't support IDE mode, CF readers/controllers also need to support this mode / talk ATA to card.

I think that Aperture Science still has the right idea, and I'm excited to see what he comes up with. I'm not an expert in electrical engineering or how these cards work, but I am asking a couple of people that I know about them so that maybe I can be of assistance.

Is there something you think can work, in terms of a device or adapter mechanism? If the camera believes that it is writing to a CF card and it's able to communicate with it, and then that data is processed back to an mSata or other interface SSD, it should theoretically work. It just has to be compatible with the process. Would you have an idea of how it could work? I can have a device made, but I'm not currently sure the best way to do it because of my own lack of knowledge about cards and the exact process in which they work.

p.s: I was talking to a person about the current CFast to mSATA drives that work on newer Canon cinema cameras, and he said the reason they struggled to find out how to get the CF to SSD drives working was because of writing protocols. - Couldn't that be remedied by having an adapting device that is actually supporting the proper IDE writing protocols and then sending the written data back on external storage?
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: names_are_hard on September 09, 2020, 05:35:52 PM
There's two broad approaches.

1) Pin-to-pin adapter, no logic, just wires.  With this approach the target drive must use the same interface as origin drive.  So if it's PATA CF in the cam, it has to be PATA something at the other end of your adapter.  If it's SATA, SATA at both ends, etc.  This is simpler, cheaper, may have problems with lengths of wires involved making the communication protocols fail.

2) Active logic.  Here you have some chip in the middle that understands whatever protocol the target and origin drive speak.  It translates.  This is more flexible - you could have PATA at one end and NVMe at the other...  but, it's much harder.  You will need a fast chip to keep up, and since you're not dumbly passing through the information, but actively processing it, you must have code that speaks both protocols.  Those protocols may have patents involved, may not have freely available code, etc.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 71m363nd3r on September 09, 2020, 08:36:40 PM
Do you know that 99% all the cameras have a max limit of card storage that they accept.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on September 09, 2020, 08:40:20 PM
Do you know that 99% all the cameras have a max limit of card storage that they accept.

Source?
And why should 1% (which one?) accept *all* sizes? CF 4.0 is defined for up to 512 GByte. CF 5.0 up to 128 PiByte (128 x 1024 TiByte).
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: 71m363nd3r on September 09, 2020, 11:46:26 PM
Source?
And why should 1% (which one?) accept *all* sizes? CF 4.0 is defined for up to 512 GByte. CF 5.0 up to 128 PiByte (128 x 1024 TiByte).

https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=FAQ100307&actp=search&viewlocale=en_US&searchid=1556162102084 (https://support.usa.canon.com/kb/index?page=content&id=FAQ100307&actp=search&viewlocale=en_US&searchid=1556162102084)

https://canoncanada.custhelp.com/app/answers/answer_view/a_id/1002948/~/what-memory-cards-have-been-verified-to-work-with-this-camera%3F-%28eos-5d-mark-ii%29 (https://canoncanada.custhelp.com/app/answers/answer_view/a_id/1002948/~/what-memory-cards-have-been-verified-to-work-with-this-camera%3F-%28eos-5d-mark-ii%29)

https://id.canon/id/support/8201558700 (https://id.canon/id/support/8201558700)

look at compatibility size @ canon

https://store.canon.co.uk/canon-sandisk-extreme-pro-compactflash-memory-card-160-mb-s-256gb/0210W812/
 (https://store.canon.co.uk/canon-sandisk-extreme-pro-compactflash-memory-card-160-mb-s-256gb/0210W812/)

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ibb.co%2FX8s4vT2%2FzipZb.jpg&hash=e352fc998ba2c6aaa53d499f94ac1c2f)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Walter Schulz on September 09, 2020, 11:54:19 PM
Sorry, your conclusion is not based on facts. You named no source backing up your claim about 99%. You used outdated sources (first 256 GB CF was introduced late 2013).
Canon's statement about guaranteed compatibilty says nothing about incompatibility.
You didn't come up with a single source about CF 5.0 compatibilty.
Compatibilty issues with ExFAT are not based on size. For example: Digic 4 cams can't deal with ExFAT. Size doesn't matter in this case.
To put it together: Your statement is worthless.

This is a technically oriented forum. Facts rules.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on September 10, 2020, 08:58:49 AM
Sorry, but you are wrong. Those SSDs depicted on photo have completely different pinout than CF, it's called 1.8 IDE. I had one of those on OQO 01+, and still own adapter that converts CF pinout so you can plug it to replace this kind of "CF connector" drive. Their connector is also slightly different so you can't just force CF card into 1.8 IDE (and 1.8 IDE drive is wider so you can't force it into CF)

(https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/proxy.php?request=https%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FG06nF6D.png&hash=0dd19345a4bfb345cd90ff032ca5b966)

Also, let me remind you all that CF standard has three types of operation, one of them is IDE emulation. There are cards that don't support IDE mode, CF readers/controllers also need to support this mode / talk ATA to card.

I see, thank you for the knowledge.

That explains why the previous one made by deanziyangyu didn't works. However the socket in the front is the same as Compact Flash
I tear down exactly the same board deanziyangyu posted, the black part in the front fits into the case of CF card perfectly in the picture I posted (the fly-wired one). That is the reason why I was thinking they are the same. And yes, you are right. CF and IDE 50 are two different stuffs.

PS: JM20330 is a two way chip set not only can do SATA to IDE but also IDE to SATA
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on September 10, 2020, 09:18:17 AM
Do you know that 99% all the cameras have a max limit of card storage that they accept.
Don't be worry about this, the SSD I used is a MLC one from cisco @ 64GB

PS: There are something in the end of the previous page.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: koopg on September 22, 2020, 10:03:51 PM
Can we some how get help from PCMCIA cards ?
https://www.google.com/search?client=ms-android-samsung-gn-rev1&sxsrf=ALeKk02rBRSpkaUE3kMiK61YeVXlMG9wRA%3A1600804937940&ei=SVhqX8_0OMuAgQb7jqrYAw&q=cf+card+adapter+mc&oq=cf+card+adapter+mc&gs_lcp=ChNtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1zZXJwEAMyBggAEA0QHjIHCCEQChCgATIHCCEQChCgATIHCCEQChCgATIICCEQFhAdEB46BAgAEEc6AggAOgYIABAWEB46BQghEKABUP4FWKdEYOZZaANwAXgAgAGMAogBrwmSAQUwLjQuMpgBAKABAcgBCMABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-serp#imgrc=rINSg1B8IeKOnM


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Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: kitor on September 23, 2020, 11:00:52 AM
No. CF card memory and device modes (except IDE mode) are just based and backward compatible to PCMCIA standard.

In the same way as IDE / UDMA modes are exposing IDE interface directly on CF connector and require direct passive adapter, in first two modes CF card is basically a smaller PCMCIA card.

CF host does not need to support PCMCIA. PCMCIA support CF as it acts like PCMCIA.

And "card readers" others than CF are either emulating PCMCIA memory mode, or are just straight PCI (PCMCIA) devices interacting with OS, thus requiring device mode support and drivers. You won't find this on camera.
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: Aperture Science on September 26, 2020, 10:04:12 AM
No. CF card memory and device modes (except IDE mode) are just based and backward compatible to PCMCIA standard.

In the same way as IDE / UDMA modes are exposing IDE interface directly on CF connector and require direct passive adapter, in first two modes CF card is basically a smaller PCMCIA card.

CF host does not need to support PCMCIA. PCMCIA support CF as it acts like PCMCIA.

And "card readers" others than CF are either emulating PCMCIA memory mode, or are just straight PCI (PCMCIA) devices interacting with OS, thus requiring device mode support and drivers. You won't find this on camera.

Got you, thanks ;)
Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: thebailey on October 28, 2020, 07:59:58 AM
So exciting that this topic has been resurrected from the grave.

So if I understand correctly, any 'sata to IDE' converter that provides UDMA 7 and 150Mb/s read/write speeds while acting as a device not a host, should work with the right 'dumb' pin conversion adapter?

So what about an adapter like this:
https://www.amazon.com.au/Ableconn-IIDE-MSAT-2-5-Inch-Converter-Aluminum/dp/B017VQT5YW/ref=pd_lpo_23_t_2/358-1747184-0009040?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B017VQT5YW&pd_rd_r=c92e0606-6922-40bf-8691-b3989882b6db&pd_rd_w=eTcEi&pd_rd_wg=wEvUL&pf_rd_p=ad2d1e6e-bc60-4795-b4c0-2dbd35f6678d&pf_rd_r=Z3ZX2WGHKTW3VHYPWNJ4&psc=1&refRID=Z3ZX2WGHKTW3VHYPWNJ4

Or even this:
https://www.aliexpress.com/i/32948126404.html

If you're having trouble getting power into the drive simultaneous to it being initialised by the camera, you could use this adapter:
https://www.amazon.com.au/Bi-Directional-Adapter-JM20330-Chipset-Dongle/dp/B07M8S8MCM

And here's a ready to go fake CF card that takes Cfast cards
https://www.amazon.com/UREACH-CFast-CF-adapter-2-PACK/dp/B016PA1I3G

Title: Re: CF-to-SATA hardware interface for RAW recording (fork)
Post by: koopg on November 13, 2020, 12:57:32 AM
If any body is going to play, here are some more variation

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