ML UI rationalization

[a1ex]

Exposure duration is normally Canon shutter speed. Bulb timer is not that widely used, since you rarely need exposures longer than 30 seconds. So, a menu for this under Intervalometer looks a bit weird.

If you enable both bulb timer and intervalometer, it's obvious what you want to do. But if you are in bulb mode and you only enable intervalometer, there's no Canon shutter speed that you can use (so I used the bulb timer setting because that was the only reasonable value I could think of).

[stevefal]

Ok I didn't even understand what you were asking. I thought you wanted a way to set long shutter speeds (exposure duration) in Intervalometer, assuming that very long exposures might be wanted sometimes - star-fields etc.

The root problem is that "Bulb timer" is a misnomer. "Bulb" by definition, is not a timed exposure at all, but manual exposure. The feature is really an extra long exposure. "Long exposure"

So by the true definition of "bulb" you should not be able to use Intervalometer in Bulb mode, because it doesn't make sense to use a manual exposure when doing time-lapse.

If you say ML needs Bulb mode to implement extra long exposures, then I'd say, answering your question, that if the user enables Intervalometer in Bulb mode, they should be told to enable Bulb timer (thereby providing long exposures), or exit Bulb mode in order to choose a normal shutter speed normally.

It's best to avoid perversion of understood concepts.

[a1ex]

So, would it make sense to rename Bulb timer to Long exposure?

[xNiNELiVES]

Well your the admin can't you apply the change? Nice of you to check with the community here though. Yeah it would make sense to change the name.

[stevefal]

That hinges on implementation. Does long timed exposure rely on the camera being in bulb mode?

- long exposure relies on bulb mode
      call it "Bulb timer"
      in bulb mode, when intervalometer is enabled, warn "In bulb mode you must turn on 'Bulb timer' to use intervalometer"

- long exposure does not rely on bulb mode
      call it "Long exposure"
      lock out "Long exposure" and Intervalometer in bulb mode (neither makes sense in bulb mode)

[a1ex]

Yes, it does (try it).

[stevefal]

Yes, I realize it is currently disabled outside bulb mode. But the question is whether it *must* rely on bulb mode. If so, then the "Bulb timer" concept is sort of necessary. Therefore:

- long exposure relies on bulb mode
      call it "Bulb timer"
      in bulb mode, when user tries to enable intervalometer, warn "In bulb mode you must turn on 'Bulb timer' to use intervalometer".

If the user doesn't want that, they can leave bulb mode, and use standard timed shutter speeds.

[a1ex]

Even if this thread is old, I think it's still the best place to discuss UI changes.

Suggestion under review: long-press SET/Q to open ML submenus on EOS M.
- advantage: using the Q button as on all other models
- disadvantage: long-press handling means short-press actions will be executed on release (slower feedback; I've found it unnatural after playing with it for a while)

Alternative:
- use the PLAY button to open submenus, in addition to Q (either only on EOS M, or possibly on all models)
- currently, this button decrements values for historical reasons, but I've never found myself using it... until Walter noticed it:

4.) Triangle icon. Used to start an action ("Play Button") and used show/hide menu options. Seen in MLV lite submenu: Playback will start playback and Advanced ... will show hidden items. Not that great IMO.

Another issue: many users end up pressing the MENU key and then they don't know how to go back.
Suggestion: disable the Junkie menu (anyone using it?) and just make the MENU key go back (until exiting ML menu).

Disabling the Junkie menu would save 4.5K of RAM (might be useful for e.g. 1100D).

MENU could also be reused for opening ML submenus, but that's a bit inconsistent with Canon menus (where it always goes back).

[nikfreak]

+1 for removing the Junkie menu.

[Walter Schulz]

Wasn't there a suggestion about using "junkie tech" to enable touchscreen controls for ML?

[a1ex]

There was, but the interest in pushing it forward seems pretty low.

None of my cameras has touch screen, btw, so it will take a while until I'll get it working in QEMU.

[a1ex]

Some UI updates committed to lua_fix (will be in the next build; feel free to compile from source for early testing):

- EOS M has SET/Q, just like 100D; now this button is handled in the same way on both models:
    -> short press = SET (including ETTR trigger, exposure presets and whatever else uses the SET key in ML)
    -> long press = Q (Canon settings)
- 100D, EOSM: hold SET at startup to bypass ML (just like all other models; previously, these two used INFO)
- all models: disabled the Junkie menu (can be re-enabled with FEATURE_JUNKIE_MENU in features.h); MENU just goes back
- all models: PLAY opens submenus (in addition to Q)

All of the above were tested in QEMU.

Let me know how it feels (I can revert any of them if needed).

[aprofiti]

Just wondering if could be possible to map long press of Joystick as a shortcut to quick open a user customizable ML submenu.

Currently from lua_fix changes it play an animation and then simply open last ML category tab.

As example it could be used in conjunction with manual lenses to quickly changes Aperture and Focal Length values by pointing to his specific submenu.

[a1ex]

Right, currently it simply opens ML menu. Sometimes I use the camera with one hand, so it's nice to be able to navigate ML menu without reaching to the other side for the Delete button.

There are a couple of shortcuts that go to specific menu entries. For example, ISO + Q opens the Expo menu, and AF mode + Q opens the Focus menu. I've even forgotten the shortcut for these and had to look them up in the source, so it's probably time for some cleanup.

Some more ideas about shortcut keys: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7816

For lens parameters, the DOF button would have been nice; unfortunately it's not triggered at all with a manual lens.



Misc notes, possibly unrelated:

- On 5D2, WB + SET triggers ML's auto white balance. I remember some people found this less than handy, as they were expecting to start recording instead.

- I liked a tweak from a script in the lua_touch branch: opening ML menu by dragging the finger from top to bottom, and was thinking to enable it by default.

[aprofiti]

From a quick check it appears to do nothing when pressing ISO + Joistick (Q equivalent) or AF mode + Joistick on 50D.
Does this do not works on camera without dedicated Q button?

For lens parameters, the DOF button would have been nice; unfortunately it's not triggered at all with a manual lens.

Maybe can be used with Chipped Adapter? If I switch to LV and press DOF button, it will hang a moment (where it will close aperture with an AF Lens) and doesn't append if I simply remove lens, like if it is receiving interrupt from button press event

Extending with touch interface could also be useful for some users with a compatible camera

[a1ex]

These shortcuts are not enabled on cameras without Q button (see menu.c, handle_quick_access_menu_items).

My experience with third party chipped adapters was not the best; I'm not sure the behavior is even repeatable. The DOF button is also not easiest to detect, as it first sends a half-shutter press and then - after several hundred ms - it triggers the DOF property.

[scrax]

Right, currently it simply opens ML menu. Sometimes I use the camera with one hand, so it's nice to be able to navigate ML menu without reaching to the other side for the Delete button.

There are a couple of shortcuts that go to specific menu entries. For example, ISO + Q opens the Expo menu, and AF mode + Q opens the Focus menu. I've even forgotten the shortcut for these and had to look them up in the source, so it's probably time for some cleanup.

Some more ideas about shortcut keys: https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7816

For lens parameters, the DOF button would have been nice; unfortunately it's not triggered at all with a manual lens.



Misc notes, possibly unrelated:

- On 5D2, WB + SET triggers ML's auto white balance. I remember some people found this less than handy, as they were expecting to start recording instead.

- I liked a tweak from a script in the lua_touch branch: opening ML menu by dragging the finger from top to bottom, and was thinking to enable it by default.

years agou i've added some shortcut to ML menus for 600D and got used to them, I've now updated those changes to unified here in those days.
I've not made any PR because I was thinking to be the only one needing it, but if. there is need we can define together what shortcut to use

for now they are triggered by trash button when in some gui mode:

Code Select Expand


FOCUS    + trash = TrapFocus
WB       + trash = WB
ISO      + trash = ISO
PICSTYLE + trash = GlobalDraw
Q_ACTIVE + trash = Beep, test tone

I'm also used to the junkie menu and find useful to remove all menu that are set and forget and keep only stuff that has to be switched on and off here, only for photo.
I have like 3 or 4 column only with max 9 options shown.
It's really easy to use like this and fast to change setting.

One nice improvement imho will be an option to remove the info bar under it when in junkie mode since it's an advanced feature an (at least as I use it) should provide a more clean approach for user that are not first time user, not?
Without the bottom bar with the help strings it will have more space to render the buttons bigger and be more clean.

NOTE on the picture attached: since i've finally manged to port my old old old PR for c-modes and gui options to a module i can now change fast K and othr basic photo setting without ML menu so the first four blue button are not needed anymore making more simple and faster junkie mode ever for me

Another great feat i think could be if junkie mode differentiate from photo mode and video mode (sort of like canon does), so to being able to have different buttons enabled for the two mode.
In my junkie menu I have 15 button displayed for photo only, in movie mode are all useless apart from focus settings, so having junkie mode switch to aother set of configuration in movie mode will let me use it also there instead of standard ML menu.

[a1ex]

Heh, that means I need to re-enable the Junkie menu; possibly as a menu option. It's already disabled from the lua_fix builds.

The info bar at bottom is mostly a way to print the complete description of each menu, since it usually doesn't fit in the small "junkie" box. Not sure what to do with it; I'd still print the full name and value of the menus somewhere, maybe in smaller font or as tooltip?

The delete button makes more sense in various GUI modes, though I'd probably just pop the ML menu and scroll to the relevant place (and require a confirmation with SET). For example, WB + Delete could open the White Balance submenu from ML menu. Other suggestions welcome.

The good news is that I'll now be able to test it in QEMU, since the GUI modes are pretty much model-specific.

[scrax]

The delete button makes more sense in various GUI modes, though I'd probably just pop the ML menu and scroll to the relevant place (and require a confirmation with SET). For example, WB + Delete could open the White Balance submenu from ML menu. Other suggestions welcome.

The good news is that I'll now be able to test it in QEMU, since the GUI modes are pretty much model-specific.

About trash button is just what I thought and added to my mod of ML, trash button already means ML and since in those GUIMODE was unused I've added shortcut to related options in ML when possible and other arbritrary choices for other dialog screen,


about the bottom bar, i was thinking that only the grey area should not be shown, not the black one with the name of the menu entry, that should stay as you explained is needed there.

[scrax]

- all models: disabled the Junkie menu (can be re-enabled with FEATURE_JUNKIE_MENU in features.h); MENU just goes back

not sure where to post this but in menuindex.c there is #if instead of #ifdef and won't compile if junkie menu is re enabled in features.h

[garry23]

I've just got another 'new' EOSM and am setting it up with the lates Lua fix.

Tested my DOFIS and MUSIC scripts, all ok.

But I can't turn off the long SET simulated Q feature, that I thought was in the junkie menu, that I can't find.

I need access to the SET, as my script uses a long press here, that I need to control.

Can anyone suggest how to switch off the long SET Q in the EOSM.

Cheers

Garry

[garry23]

Looks like I can't switch off the ML owned long SET press on the EOSM, so I've moved to using the touch feature on the EOSM.