Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage

[dubzeebass]

I bought the Cinelog LUT yesterday. Im very excited to test it out.

What are the Mac users using to convert the MLV files to DNG's? I've tried MLVMystic and MlRawViewer but did yet different results.

When will the LUT Bank be available for users?

Rawmagic

[jemabaris]

BMD - > Cinelog - > Log-c is included.

thats why i was asking for BMD -> Log-C

[eyeland]

I would still love to see a comparison between VisionLog and CineLog before pulling the trigger. Anyone did such a clip?
Also, whats the status on the Lut-bank?
Website still says:

(The LUT Bank is coming soon. Est. online mid-April).

[Jbowdach]

when will this see an update? I purchased this assuming there was going to be continued development and an upcoming LUT bank as of April. Its now end of June. Lil much when you've convinced many to pay for some thing many have given away for free with VisionLOG and others. Just wondering what everyone else is thinking.

[Andy600]

Yes, sorry it's taken so but it's a big update. The new colorspace has been through a lot of beta testing and it will also be supported (soon) in FilmConvert Pro.

Look luts are very hit and miss if the source colourspace isn't fully known (i.e. BMD Film). We've finalized Cinelog-C for Magic Lantern raw footage and will be adding input transforms for other cameras and colorspaces over the next few weeks. The new website features should go live this week but you will get the Cinelog-C update pack including the first 10 new look luts by email today or tomorrow at the latest

Cinelog-C is a wide gamut log space and you can revert ProRes/DNxHD/MXF 444 Cinelog-C encoded video to debayered linear RGB (as hdr .exr files) which means it's great for VFX work. This is visually indistinguishable from your Resolve debayered and white balanced raw footage. The new luts are very high res 65x65x65 3D (for color) and 12bit 1D shapers (for gamma) to minimize the risk of banding (TBH we haven't seen any banding ) and we provide several output gammas including sRGB, REC709, Film Contrast, and a new ITU-R BT.1886 (2.4 gamma) that is used by a lot of facilities for TV deliverables.

We haven't tried it with VisionColor's new Impulz film luts but they should work nicely together. I need to buy the set to test and we will provide a conversion if needed.

[MA Visuals]

@Andy600 Can your upcoming Cinelog-C for Magic Lantern Raw be applied as a LUT in Premiere?  I want to avoid the ACR/AE transcoding workflow so I plan to import ML cDNG files created by MLRawViewer.  The new Lumetri effect in Premiere CC will let you apply a LUT without needing to launch Speedgrade.  Also, will your Cinelog-C match up well with Osiris LUTS or will another transformation be required?

[Andy600]

@MA Visuals

The initial DNG/cDNG to Cinelog-C needs to be done in Resolve because it uses a special shaper lut (65x cube 3D + 12bit 1D) to convert from Linear RGB colorspace to Cinelog-C Wide gamut but the output and look luts should work fine in any .cube compatible NLE (we can convert to other lut formats if required). A lot depends on how Premier/AE sees levels (data or video) but we can do something to scale the output and look luts if there are levels issues in other apps. I'll add the recommended workspace settings for Premier/AE in the accompanying guide (I need to check what is best).

TBH I'm not sure if Lumetri can read hybrid shaper luts?  . A 3D lut (even a big 65x65x65) doesn't have enough code values in the gamma part to accurately map every value needed for conversion to log so they can exhibit fine banding. If you debayer, white balance and transcode in Resolve first you should have no problems working with the footage in Premier. If you need to revert Cinelog-C back to linear RGB you'll need to go back to Resolve as that too is a shaper LUT (linear ouput should be .EXR or DPX to handle the dynamic range).

Re: Osiris - what source colorspace do VisionColor recommend for using Osiris? If it's VisionLog we would need to make something. If it's REC709/sRGB there is already a lut in the new pack that will do it (plus we can convert to other gamuts (if needed). I don't have either of their lut packs (yet - the Impulz filmscan pack looks promising) but we will work out the best solution if needed.

[jemabaris]

Re: Osiris - what source colorspace do VisionColor recommend for using Osiris?

Osiris has luts for both rec709 and log (generic)
Impulz has quite a few, like rec709 generic, log-c, log generic, different bmd cameras, canon-log and much more. it has even got them for several DSLR picture styles including their own of course. then, each lut comes in 4 different styles: CIN, FC, FPE and VS. (cineon log compound gamma, film contrast gamma, film print emulation and vision space low contrast gamme)

Hope this helps you and hoping to get a mail from you soon

[Jbowdach]

@MA Visuals

The initial DNG/cDNG to Cinelog-C needs to be done in Resolve because it uses a special shaper lut (65x cube 3D + 12bit 1D) to convert from Linear RGB colorspace to Cinelog-C Wide gamut but the output and look luts should work fine in any .cube compatible NLE (we can convert to other lut formats if required). A lot depends on how Premier/AE sees levels (data or video) but we can do something to scale the output and look luts if there are levels issues in other apps. I'll add the recommended workspace settings for Premier/AE in the accompanying guide (I need to check what is best).

TBH I'm not sure if Lumetri can read hybrid shaper luts?  . A 3D lut (even a big 65x65x65) doesn't have enough code values in the gamma part to accurately map every value needed for conversion to log so they can exhibit fine banding. If you debayer, white balance and transcode in Resolve first you should have no problems working with the footage in Premier. If you need to revert Cinelog-C back to linear RGB you'll need to go back to Resolve as that too is a shaper LUT (linear ouput should be .EXR or DPX to handle the dynamic range).

Re: Osiris - what source colorspace do VisionColor recommend for using Osiris? If it's VisionLog we would need to make something. If it's REC709/sRGB there is already a lut in the new pack that will do it (plus we can convert to other gamuts (if needed). I don't have either of their lut packs (yet - the Impulz filmscan pack looks promising) but we will work out the best solution if needed.

For both OSIRIS and Impulz, what they recommend depends on the camera. If its a DSLR h264, they recommend a non-log but slightly flat profile (usually their own visioncolor\visiontech picture profile) and the LOG versions for RED, ALEXA, BMCC, BMPCC, Magic Lantern RAW etc. They have recommended using VisionLOG in between to standardize the "log", which Ive had decent success with both with OSIRIS and Impulz. I use the MLRAW VisionLOG luts in the Impulz package and the LOG luts for OSIRIS.

A neat trick i found if an Osiris LOG LUT was too intense and backing opacity down wasnt helping was to try the rec709 lut. I know, completely not how its supposed to be used, but it creatively suited the purpose.

Long story short: Yes,  i believe OSIRIS is optimized for VISIONLog but i know plenty of people who use it on RED footage without issue. THat being said, RED footage doesnt have the strangeness that ML RAW set to BMD Film does, so we may need a intermediate conversion like VisionLOG or CineLOG to standardize

[dsManning]

Is anyone using DaVinci Resolve 11?

After converting in ACR (tried both bridge & photoshop) to cinelog (and checking and updating metadata to confirm it saved in cinelog) when I import into Resolve 11, it does not show in log colourspace.  Shows up as shot or prior to conversion in ACR.  Tried on multiple clips & checked my monitor LUTs to make sure it was not that. 

Anyone else with this issue?

[arturochu]

Yes, sorry it's taken so but it's a big update. The new colorspace has been through a lot of beta testing and it will also be supported (soon) in FilmConvert Pro.

Look luts are very hit and miss if the source colourspace isn't fully known (i.e. BMD Film). We've finalized Cinelog-C for Magic Lantern raw footage and will be adding input transforms for other cameras and colorspaces over the next few weeks. The new website features should go live this week but you will get the Cinelog-C update pack including the first 10 new look luts by email today or tomorrow at the latest

Cinelog-C is a wide gamut log space and you can revert ProRes/DNxHD/MXF 444 Cinelog-C encoded video to debayered linear RGB (as hdr .exr files) which means it's great for VFX work. This is visually indistinguishable from your Resolve debayered and white balanced raw footage. The new luts are very high res 65x65x65 3D (for color) and 12bit 1D shapers (for gamma) to minimize the risk of banding (TBH we haven't seen any banding ) and we provide several output gammas including sRGB, REC709, Film Contrast, and a new ITU-R BT.1886 (2.4 gamma) that is used by a lot of facilities for TV deliverables.

We haven't tried it with VisionColor's new Impulz film luts but they should work nicely together. I need to buy the set to test and we will provide a conversion if needed.

I haven't recieved a single mail regarding the new Cinelog-C  care to check? i'd love to star using it.

[jemabaris]

I haven't recieved a single mail regarding the new Cinelog-C  care to check? i'd love to star using it.

same here... pretty disappointed with the service actually

[Andy600]

Guys, I can understand your frustration and I'm truly sorry for the lack of updates although we do respond to support emails quickly.

We intended to release Cinelog-C last week but right at the last moment, Blackmagic released DaVinci Resolve 11 and we thought it better to fully re-test everything with the new release. After a couple of days testing in Resolve 11 we opted to add a new input lut for ML raw as the new BMD Film 4K profile is much better suited to it than BMD film. The DR of the 4K BM camera profile is very close to the Canons ~12 F-Stops (although you can use BMD Film or REC709/Linear too).

The new Lut pack is big and has a few nice surprises . I'm packaging everything and adding the last few bits to the guide that are relevant to Resolve 11+ today. You will receive your download details as soon as that is done and I promise it is worth the wait! Then I will put all my attention into getting the LUT bank online (finally). There is much more to come from us.

p.s. If you haven't already done so, I highly recommend updating to Resolve 11. The new color tools and color matching features are fantastic!

[delrosestephen]

Take your time! Thanks so much for keeping us updated!

[beauchampy]

Andy I just sent you an email! (Paul Beauchamp)

Excited to hear about the new LUT pack and using Cinelog-C in Resolve 11. Can't wait to get my hands on it!

[Andy600]

Andy I just sent you an email! (Paul Beauchamp)

Excited to hear about the new LUT pack and using Cinelog-C in Resolve 11. Can't wait to get my hands on it!

Hi Paul,

Thanks! I've emailed you. We're just testing the new user account system. Current users will be able to set up an account and download Cinelog-C later today. It will be available for everyone else to purchase sometime in the next 24hrs.

There are more updates coming over the next few weeks and the website is being overhauled. The Lut Bank which includes brand new look luts, Resolve Powergrades, video tutorials and a community area will also be live just as soon as I've got it looking pretty

[swinxx]

hello,
i am very interested in your resolve 11 cinelog profile.. when i visit your site and click to the buy button there is a link to a "couldnt find the page"

so where can i buy it, and i would like to read the manual before.. is that possible.

thx.

[Andy600]

@swinxx - the Buy page is working but we haven't added Cinelog-C yet. It will available within the next 12-24hrs but we want to make sure that our new login system is fully functional and that current users can download the update first. The manual is currently being updated.

[swinxx]

hi andy600!

when i go to cinelog for resolve and then to "To purchase Cinelog LUTS for DaVinci Resolve please scroll to the bottom of our Buy page" it doesnt work..

it would be great if you can post  a link with a manual and examples for your luts.. (i work with a canon 5d mk3 and resolve 11 now)..
i am interested cause i wanna know how to handle the imported material.. have read the impulz manual and it is a little bit unclear if those work with the raw material converted to bmdfilm or rec709..
its a mysterium for me now.

thx and i hope that you can clear up things for me.
re

[Andy600]

@swinxx - The dropdown menu on the buy page should be working (you need to select a product then hit submit) but we're changing it anyway in the next few hours to something slicker.

No problem regarding the 'how to...'. We are making everything as clear as crystal because we want you to get the results you imagined!

There will be a lot of accessible content and basic info with the more advanced bits, Resolve tutorials, Powergrades, looks etc for members but you will be able to see what can be achieved (easily) with our gamut, output and print luts which come with Cinelog-C.

I still need to buy a copy of Impulz to test but I'm 100% sure they are compatible and will produce even better results when combined.

[swinxx]

sounds great, so get back please when you have sorted everything.
greets. sw

[beauchampy]

I've been playing with the new Cinelog-C LUT pack.
So far - absolutely brilliant!

Finally a 1 LUT solution for bringing ML Raw to a very Alexa like flat image. The Rec709 monitor LUT is superb too - it's so easy to do primary correction now.

The real magic happens when you use Film Convert. I'm literally just doing primary corrections (as above), then removing the monitor LUT, slapping on a film convert node right after my primary - just that alone gives an amazing image! I'll usually do further correction after that.

Haven't had a chance to really get into the included PFE LUTs yet.. But I did have a quick play but my results seemed to be very contrasty.. I don't think I'm adding them correctly so I'll wait for the quick start guide on that one.

Great job!

[Andy600]

I've been playing with the new Cinelog-C LUT pack.
So far - absolutely brilliant!

Finally a 1 LUT solution for bringing ML Raw to a very Alexa like flat image. The Rec709 monitor LUT is superb too - it's so easy to do primary correction now.

The real magic happens when you use Film Convert. I'm literally just doing primary corrections (as above), then removing the monitor LUT, slapping on a film convert node right after my primary - just that alone gives an amazing image! I'll usually do further correction after that.

Haven't had a chance to really get into the included PFE LUTs yet.. But I did have a quick play but my results seemed to be very contrasty.. I don't think I'm adding them correctly so I'll wait for the quick start guide on that one.

Great job!

That's good to hear!

re: PFE lut contrast. They output gamma identical to the original film stock which is for Cinema projection, hence the higher contrast and is correct. We will add some extra pre-PFE 1D curve luts to make them easier for general video use but this can be done better by adding your own curve (or levels) just before the PFE. Simply raise shadows and drop highlights, adding back contrast to taste. Resolve 11's new highlight and shadow tools in the Colormatch panel are ideal for this as they can still be used after you have transcoded to Cinelog-C - just be careful of wide highlight haloing that can occur with extreme settings (this is why we are recommending users avoid aggressive use of highlight and shadow recovery in the Camera Raw panel at the render stage (but you won't know that as we still haven't uploaded the new guide yet    ) ... it's coming.

Incidentally, the main Cinelog-C luts are a very high resolution hybrid 1D/3D shapers. The monitor luts produce a true Rec709 or sRGB signal (SMPTE specs).

[kontrakatze]

I gave the new luts a quick try with realy bad starting settings (almost no light, my son sitting bored in a chair waiting for the soccer match to begin), too. Very impressive, indeed! Finally there semms to be no need to use ACR any longer, which is a huge speedup. In Addition, filmconvert in DaVinci semms to work much nicer. Fact is, it put a big fat smile on my face, which it never did before without a LOT of tweaking.

Also not quite sure where and how to drop in the PFE logs, but that is not my primary goal anyway.

You did a great job and these luts are worth evey penny paid (and even more, to be true).

Regards,
Kontrakatze

[50Deezil]

Was there a mass email sent to all Cinelog owners?  I didn't get anything about the new software.