Author Topic: 50D Raw video  (Read 631777 times)

Andy600

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4450 on: February 23, 2014, 08:48:57 AM »
It can only center the LV preview so you can frame a shot easier. The actual recorded area of the sensor is always off. I wish this could be fixed but it's no biggie for me personally.
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riccardocovino

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4451 on: February 23, 2014, 12:24:38 PM »
What's the purpose of framing liveview if recording is shifted?
This bug makes crop view almost unusable for anything else than simple tests.
I'm using the 50D as B-cam of a BMCC but I'm forced to use it in full view, losing resolution and increasing aliasing, just because I never know what will be recorded in crop mode :(
Shots with short DOF are ok, but wide shots clearly suffer from the limitations of full view, compared to BMCC.
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Andy600

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4452 on: February 23, 2014, 01:07:22 PM »
What's the purpose of framing liveview if recording is shifted?
This bug makes crop view almost unusable for anything else than simple tests.
I'm using the 50D as B-cam of a BMCC but I'm forced to use it in full view, losing resolution and increasing aliasing, just because I never know what will be recorded in crop mode :(
Shots with short DOF are ok, but wide shots clearly suffer from the limitations of full view, compared to BMCC.

So that you're at least able to see the center of the crop area. I think 1% said it has something to do with ADTG!? but so far there is no solution.
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johnhenryrupe

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4453 on: February 23, 2014, 04:28:15 PM »
It can only center the LV preview so you can frame a shot easier. The actual recorded area of the sensor is always off. I wish this could be fixed but it's no biggie for me personally.

Cool thanks for clearing that up Andy600, now I can stop messing with it and just use it, :)


menoc

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4454 on: February 23, 2014, 05:15:33 PM »
hi menoc, thanks for your note. honestly, I watch your posts and value them  8) what version of ACE do you use? I may have an older version...

Thanks. It's Camera RAW 8.3.0.141 (Photoshop CC - Creative Cloud)

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4455 on: February 23, 2014, 08:06:47 PM »
Quote
I'm using the 50D as B-cam of a BMCC but I'm forced to use it in full view, losing resolution and increasing aliasing, just because I never know what will be recorded in crop mode

Well you have the display filter to see what you're recording in color. Its hard to have it on while recording but you should be able to easily frame at least the first shot.

Jackeatley

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4456 on: February 23, 2014, 09:29:14 PM »
Hi everybody! I'm late in getting to the 50d party. I own a 550d and was shooting RAW with that. But just got me a 50d and, of course, am very happy. One problem, and yes I've been going through the tread but can't seem to find an answer.

-Is there a way to center the crop mode in the middle of the sensor. It seems to record a region slightly to the upper left of center, and after moving the joystick around a little, it seems to jump around to various regions but never dead center. I did a test on my 550d, and it seems to be in the center. Am I missing something or is this the case with the 50d. Not the biggest problem, but i do have a wide-angle adapter for one of my lenses, and the region crop mode uses starts to include that fuzzy area you get on lame wide angle adapters. Having the crop mode region dead center would help.

Sorry if this has already been covered. Oh yeah, I'm using Tragic lantern (andy600 build 2014.2.1), with preview set to auto, and focus box set to center x5 zoom.

You guys rock! and KahL, awesome stills!

Funny we've just been edging on this discussion, I'm glad a few people are talking about it, i'm really hoping we can find some way of improving things.
 I too came from the 550d, which made me assume the crop would be centred, I've tried a few builds and like Andy600 says i'm yet to find a way to do it too, and it seems nobody else does.

I wanted a wide angle in crop but alas canon conspire against us. It seems better in 10x though , can anyone offer an explanation about that one? because the recorded area is the same, but I seem to get less vignetting.

But to point out, it is better in crop, but the aliasing is still there in spades, I've shot a river a few days ago in 2000x1080 that looked like a multi coloured mess. Don't think that shooting in crop will give you a IKON or Digital Bolex on the cheap, I've realized that and it was a real bummer on my day.

dogmydog

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4457 on: February 24, 2014, 05:08:06 AM »
Funny we've just been edging on this discussion, I'm glad a few people are talking about it, i'm really hoping we can find some way of improving things.
 I too came from the 550d, which made me assume the crop would be centred, I've tried a few builds and like Andy600 says i'm yet to find a way to do it too, and it seems nobody else does.

I wanted a wide angle in crop but alas canon conspire against us. It seems better in 10x though , can anyone offer an explanation about that one? because the recorded area is the same, but I seem to get less vignetting.

But to point out, it is better in crop, but the aliasing is still there in spades, I've shot a river a few days ago in 2000x1080 that looked like a multi coloured mess. Don't think that shooting in crop will give you a IKON or Digital Bolex on the cheap, I've realized that and it was a real bummer on my day.

Well, I don't own a Bolex or BMCC but im very pleased with my 50D raw video.
I don't shoot crop, bought a Mosaic Eng 50D VAF and I'm very pleased with results. Aliasing and moire are almost gone!
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lionelp

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4458 on: February 24, 2014, 05:16:05 AM »
What's the purpose of framing liveview if recording is shifted?
This bug makes crop view almost unusable for anything else than simple tests.
I'm using the 50D as B-cam of a BMCC but I'm forced to use it in full view, losing resolution and increasing aliasing, just because I never know what will be recorded in crop mode :(
Shots with short DOF are ok, but wide shots clearly suffer from the limitations of full view, compared to BMCC.
What I'm seeing in 10X Crop is the center of my 5x image. Is it exactly precise? it looks pretty close to me. In film days it would be somewhat akin to using a B&H Eyemo in 35MM or a B&H Filmo in 16MM. You may not have the exact view that you are looking at but you are close, somewhat of/ slightly a parallax view.-Edit-In 10x Crop I am actually recording my 5x image. But I can critically focus the center of the image. When I view what I shot in my NLE or ACR it is the entire 5x image.
Canon 60D, 50D | Lenses: Nikkor : 18-55 , 3.5 | 50, 1.8 | 24, 2.8 | 28,2.8 | 35, 2.8 |Helios 58 | A few other Nikon manual zooms and prime lenses|
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lionelp

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4459 on: February 24, 2014, 08:14:33 AM »
BTW slightly off topic but I believe that Stanley Kubrick shot his first feature film almost entirely with a B&H Eyemo (KILLER'S KISS).
Canon 60D, 50D | Lenses: Nikkor : 18-55 , 3.5 | 50, 1.8 | 24, 2.8 | 28,2.8 | 35, 2.8 |Helios 58 | A few other Nikon manual zooms and prime lenses|
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Andy600

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4460 on: February 24, 2014, 09:05:58 AM »
I wouldn't want to shoot looking at a 10x magnification. 5x view is just about useable but is still only around 50% of the captured frame size(=2.475x at 1080p dimensions).

Aliasing and moire seem to be getting confused here. The 50D will alias (sometimes badly) in non-crop but is much less in 1:1 crop mode and totally down to pixel size. Moire is rare in crop mode but can happen. Hey, even the ARRI Alexa suffers from it  ;) Moire can only be totally defeated with a huge increase in pixels and a reduction in pixel size but this also has a knock-on effect to low light performance.

Excessive moire can also be down to how you process the DNG files. For extreme cases you really need to use AMaZE debayering (as found in Raw Therapee) or the anti-moire tool in ACR. Aliasing is more difficult to treat. I've tried anti-aliasing plugins but they have minimal positive effect. The only 'ok but not perfect' solution I have found when trying to rescue a 50D shot with bad aliasing is some serious post work, rescaling up to 4k or larger and back to 1080p. This softens the image but reduces aliasing artifacts. You then need to add selective sharpening to enhance areas that are less prone to aliasing and possibly add blur or even do some matte paining to artificially correct a scene. It's a lot of hassle if you're only shooting for fun.

That said, I've found the 50D is actually better than the 7D (which has FPN problems) for raw video and it can just about match the Bolex D16 image. The Black magic Cameras are significantly better but obviously much more expensive than our 5yr old DSLR.

After using 50D raw video for the past 9 months I would offer the following advice:

1) remember the limits of what you are shooting with. Don't expect night vision or 5D Mark III quality. The 50D is somewhere between an S16 and S35 but behaves like Super 16. It has +/- 11 stops of DR (Dx0 tests) but in reality only about 9-10 without excessive noise. However, noise can be cleaned up with Neat Video and can be squeaky clean but retain detail at ISO 1600 with the right settings (i.e. temporal filtering and only reducing noise in the channels that actually have noise).

2) The 50D needs light! It will give exceptional results (considering it's age) if you remember this.

3) Post processing is important. You're shooting raw video so why skimp? If you want fast and easy then shoot H.264 (or, pardon the plug, use Cinelog and a LUT ;) ). It takes some careful steps to even get to a good starting point for grading but it's worth it.

I'll hazard a guess that no matter how bad your shot is, it can probably be cleaned up if you use the appropriate tools for the job but ask yourself first 'is the shot is worth saving?'! Sometimes a re-shoot, after learning how and where aliasing/moire occur in a given situation, is a better option.
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KahL

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4461 on: February 24, 2014, 05:20:00 PM »
I wouldn't want to shoot looking at a 10x magnification. 5x view is just about useable but is still only around 50% of the captured frame size(=2.475x at 1080p dimensions).

Aliasing and moire seem to be getting confused here. The 50D will alias (sometimes badly) in non-crop but is much less in 1:1 crop mode and totally down to pixel size. Moire is rare in crop mode but can happen. Hey, even the ARRI Alexa suffers from it  ;) Moire can only be totally defeated with a huge increase in pixels and a reduction in pixel size but this also has a knock-on effect to low light performance.

Excessive moire can also be down to how you process the DNG files. For extreme cases you really need to use AMaZE debayering (as found in Raw Therapee) or the anti-moire tool in ACR. Aliasing is more difficult to treat. I've tried anti-aliasing plugins but they have minimal positive effect. The only 'ok but not perfect' solution I have found when trying to rescue a 50D shot with bad aliasing is some serious post work, rescaling up to 4k or larger and back to 1080p. This softens the image but reduces aliasing artifacts. You then need to add selective sharpening to enhance areas that are less prone to aliasing and possibly add blur or even do some matte paining to artificially correct a scene. It's a lot of hassle if you're only shooting for fun.

That said, I've found the 50D is actually better than the 7D (which has FPN problems) for raw video and it can just about match the Bolex D16 image. The Black magic Cameras are significantly better but obviously much more expensive than our 5yr old DSLR.

After using 50D raw video for the past 9 months I would offer the following advice:

1) remember the limits of what you are shooting with. Don't expect night vision or 5D Mark III quality. The 50D is somewhere between an S16 and S35 but behaves like Super 16. It has +/- 11 stops of DR (Dx0 tests) but in reality only about 9-10 without excessive noise. However, noise can be cleaned up with Neat Video and can be squeaky clean but retain detail at ISO 1600 with the right settings (i.e. temporal filtering and only reducing noise in the channels that actually have noise).

2) The 50D needs light! It will give exceptional results (considering it's age) if you remember this.

3) Post processing is important. You're shooting raw video so why skimp? If you want fast and easy then shoot H.264 (or, pardon the plug, use Cinelog and a LUT ;) ). It takes some careful steps to even get to a good starting point for grading but it's worth it.

I'll hazard a guess that no matter how bad your shot is, it can probably be cleaned up if you use the appropriate tools for the job but ask yourself first 'is the shot is worth saving?'! Sometimes a re-shoot, after learning how and where aliasing/moire occur in a given situation, is a better option.

This is a fairly good assessment here.
The 50D isn't really a low light monster, but if you're already used to using the cropped s35 sensors then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If you're creative you can work around it fairly simply.

One point I'd have to say is that the 60D in raw behaves more like s16 film more than the 50D. I've found from comparative tests that the 50D is more like 3-perf s35 film when upscaled to 1080p, while the 60D (at 1152x490) resolves very similarly to s16 film (more so than the DBolex or BMPCC). I'm also looking into purchasing some super 16 glass to further look into this for the 60D as well.

I'm have a blog post about this soon to give some visual comparisons.

Jackeatley

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4462 on: February 24, 2014, 06:50:25 PM »
I wouldn't want to shoot looking at a 10x magnification. 5x view is just about useable but is still only around 50% of the captured frame size(=2.475x at 1080p dimensions).

Aliasing and moire seem to be getting confused here. The 50D will alias (sometimes badly) in non-crop but is much less in 1:1 crop mode and totally down to pixel size. Moire is rare in crop mode but can happen. Hey, even the ARRI Alexa suffers from it  ;) Moire can only be totally defeated with a huge increase in pixels and a reduction in pixel size but this also has a knock-on effect to low light performance.

Excessive moire can also be down to how you process the DNG files. For extreme cases you really need to use AMaZE debayering (as found in Raw Therapee) or the anti-moire tool in ACR. Aliasing is more difficult to treat. I've tried anti-aliasing plugins but they have minimal positive effect. The only 'ok but not perfect' solution I have found when trying to rescue a 50D shot with bad aliasing is some serious post work, rescaling up to 4k or larger and back to 1080p. This softens the image but reduces aliasing artifacts. You then need to add selective sharpening to enhance areas that are less prone to aliasing and possibly add blur or even do some matte paining to artificially correct a scene. It's a lot of hassle if you're only shooting for fun.

That said, I've found the 50D is actually better than the 7D (which has FPN problems) for raw video and it can just about match the Bolex D16 image. The Black magic Cameras are significantly better but obviously much more expensive than our 5yr old DSLR.

After using 50D raw video for the past 9 months I would offer the following advice:

1) remember the limits of what you are shooting with. Don't expect night vision or 5D Mark III quality. The 50D is somewhere between an S16 and S35 but behaves like Super 16. It has +/- 11 stops of DR (Dx0 tests) but in reality only about 9-10 without excessive noise. However, noise can be cleaned up with Neat Video and can be squeaky clean but retain detail at ISO 1600 with the right settings (i.e. temporal filtering and only reducing noise in the channels that actually have noise).

2) The 50D needs light! It will give exceptional results (considering it's age) if you remember this.

3) Post processing is important. You're shooting raw video so why skimp? If you want fast and easy then shoot H.264 (or, pardon the plug, use Cinelog and a LUT ;) ). It takes some careful steps to even get to a good starting point for grading but it's worth it.

I'll hazard a guess that no matter how bad your shot is, it can probably be cleaned up if you use the appropriate tools for the job but ask yourself first 'is the shot is worth saving?'! Sometimes a re-shoot, after learning how and where aliasing/moire occur in a given situation, is a better option.

+1 On this.

I Love the image that comes out of the camera, but you have to be aware of the limits, Putting an extra AA filter doesn't really solve the problem, we still have a big sensor with a very inappropriate pixel density for HD video. No amount of post is going to solve this problem, once its tried to resolve above the nyquist point, its happened thats it, you can try to hide it, but its already happened, the pixel horses have bolted.

The mosaic filter is a really great product that helps us get that little bit extra out, but its not going to turn it into an alexa, the same way a "speedbooster" can't turn this breed of M4/3 cameras into 35mm cameras.

For me the 50d raw package is a great camera, that I would happily pay to rent, but its not digital cinema camera in the true sense, but its a great camera for those shallow detailed shots, and produces an astounding (IMO) amount of color information. This still goes for crop, I've still had it alias in crop when my DOF was too large, it simply couldn't resolve it and it produced artifacts, but the rest of the time, it was a lot better than full sensor mode.


lionelp

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4463 on: February 24, 2014, 07:10:43 PM »
This is a fairly good assessment here.
The 50D isn't really a low light monster, but if you're already used to using the cropped s35 sensors then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. If you're creative you can work around it fairly simply.

Agreed!

One point I'd have to say is that the 60D in raw behaves more like s16 film more than the 50D. I've found from comparative tests that the 50D is more like 3-perf s35 film when upscaled to 1080p, while the 60D (at 1152x490) resolves very similarly to s16 film (more so than the DBolex or BMPCC). I'm also looking into purchasing some super 16 glass to further look into this for the 60D as well.

Interesting point of view. I think of the 50D as 16mm like but can see what you mean.
I  have to try 1152x490 on the 60D- Interesting point.
Canon 60D, 50D | Lenses: Nikkor : 18-55 , 3.5 | 50, 1.8 | 24, 2.8 | 28,2.8 | 35, 2.8 |Helios 58 | A few other Nikon manual zooms and prime lenses|
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lionelp

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4464 on: February 24, 2014, 07:12:45 PM »
I wouldn't want to shoot looking at a 10x magnification. 5x view is just about useable but is still only around 50% of the captured frame size(=2.475x at 1080p dimensions).

Aliasing and moire seem to be getting confused here. The 50D will alias (sometimes badly) in non-crop but is much less in 1:1 crop mode and totally down to pixel size. Moire is rare in crop mode but can happen. Hey, even the ARRI Alexa suffers from it  ;) Moire can only be totally defeated with a huge increase in pixels and a reduction in pixel size but this also has a knock-on effect to low light performance.

Excessive moire can also be down to how you process the DNG files. For extreme cases you really need to use AMaZE debayering (as found in Raw Therapee) or the anti-moire tool in ACR. Aliasing is more difficult to treat. I've tried anti-aliasing plugins but they have minimal positive effect. The only 'ok but not perfect' solution I have found when trying to rescue a 50D shot with bad aliasing is some serious post work, rescaling up to 4k or larger and back to 1080p. This softens the image but reduces aliasing artifacts. You then need to add selective sharpening to enhance areas that are less prone to aliasing and possibly add blur or even do some matte paining to artificially correct a scene. It's a lot of hassle if you're only shooting for fun.

That said, I've found the 50D is actually better than the 7D (which has FPN problems) for raw video and it can just about match the Bolex D16 image. The Black magic Cameras are significantly better but obviously much more expensive than our 5yr old DSLR.

After using 50D raw video for the past 9 months I would offer the following advice:

1) remember the limits of what you are shooting with. Don't expect night vision or 5D Mark III quality. The 50D is somewhere between an S16 and S35 but behaves like Super 16. It has +/- 11 stops of DR (Dx0 tests) but in reality only about 9-10 without excessive noise. However, noise can be cleaned up with Neat Video and can be squeaky clean but retain detail at ISO 1600 with the right settings (i.e. temporal filtering and only reducing noise in the channels that actually have noise).

2) The 50D needs light! It will give exceptional results (considering it's age) if you remember this.

3) Post processing is important. You're shooting raw video so why skimp? If you want fast and easy then shoot H.264 (or, pardon the plug, use Cinelog and a LUT ;) ). It takes some careful steps to even get to a good starting point for grading but it's worth it.

I'll hazard a guess that no matter how bad your shot is, it can probably be cleaned up if you use the appropriate tools for the job but ask yourself first 'is the shot is worth saving?'! Sometimes a re-shoot, after learning how and where aliasing/moire occur in a given situation, is a better option.
Absolutely agree! 
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TrueIndigo

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4465 on: February 24, 2014, 08:21:32 PM »
I was looking through a note I made last year of shooting in crop mode with a slower than normal frame speed - as an experiment to increase the frame size. I was using 2.39:1 aspect ratio and set the speed to 12 fps; I thought I had set some of the larger frame sizes available in the menu but kept getting an actual frame size of 2000 x 852. Is 2000 pixels the largest possible crop width regardless of frame speed, or did I mess up somehow? Thanks.

Andy600

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4466 on: February 24, 2014, 08:26:54 PM »
I was looking through a note I made last year of shooting in crop mode with a slower than normal frame speed - as an experiment to increase the frame size. I was using 2.39:1 aspect ratio and set the speed to 12 fps; I thought I had set some of the larger frame sizes available in the menu but kept getting an actual frame size of 2000 x 852. Is 2000 pixels the largest possible crop width regardless of frame speed, or did I mess up somehow? Thanks.

Yes. 2000px is the maximum width.
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TrueIndigo

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4467 on: February 24, 2014, 08:36:02 PM »
Thanks Andy.

KahL: "I'm also looking into purchasing some super 16 glass to further look into this for the 60D as well." -- can I ask what mount you will be using? I have some C-mount lenses I've had for years, but I can't use them because the lens register distance of a Canon DSLR is too long (44.0mm versus 17.5mm for C-mount).

EDIT: I just saw one of your earlier posts -- you mentioned PL lenses (with a lens register distance of 52.0mm). PL lenses are out of my budget, but I'd be interested to hear how you get on with them.

araucaria

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4468 on: February 25, 2014, 12:54:08 AM »
Hey guys, I haven't been using my 50d for quite some time so today I installed the latest release and loaded the raw module. The problem is that I can't get over 180º shutter (maybe it was a little more, don't remember). I remember being able to use up to 1/2000 speed a few months ago. What am I doing wrong? Thanks

KahL

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4469 on: February 25, 2014, 01:26:02 AM »

KahL

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4470 on: February 25, 2014, 01:39:45 AM »
Thanks Andy.

KahL: "I'm also looking into purchasing some super 16 glass to further look into this for the 60D as well." -- can I ask what mount you will be using? I have some C-mount lenses I've had for years, but I can't use them because the lens register distance of a Canon DSLR is too long (44.0mm versus 17.5mm for C-mount).

EDIT: I just saw one of your earlier posts -- you mentioned PL lenses (with a lens register distance of 52.0mm). PL lenses are out of my budget, but I'd be interested to hear how you get on with them.




I've also been looking at b4-mount glass too:

dsManning

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4471 on: February 25, 2014, 02:47:41 AM »
With B4 glass and a 2x extender, should be free of vignetting in crop mode, correct?  Without 2x extender you would have a somewhat fisheye look.

Or I believe in crop mode (even without extender) you would cover the whole sensor.  In full frame, you would get the vignetted fish eye look.  It is more the cameras like the GH series that need the 2x extender because they do not have the same sensor zoom we have on ML.

KahL or anyone else using converted lenses care to clarify? Thanks  I had actually picked up that J15x9 B4 lens last summer at an antique show/town fair for something like $30.

lionelp

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4472 on: February 25, 2014, 04:39:45 PM »
Just posted the comparison video:
http://kahlworks.wordpress.com/2014/02/25/unscientific-yet-fun-50d-and-60d-raw-comparisons/

Kahl I like the comparison test. I understand what you mean about the 60D, it does feel like super 16,  the grain structure particularly indoors.
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Jackeatley

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4473 on: February 25, 2014, 07:59:32 PM »
I've also been looking at b4-mount glass too:



Thats exactly what i've been using, beware that you'll get no higher than 1700 without vignette i'm afraid, decent lens for 2080x1080 silent pics on the 550d though.

This particular lens can be a bit hazy wide open, but can get fairly sharp at F4-F8.

rommex

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Re: 50D Raw video
« Reply #4474 on: February 28, 2014, 12:30:15 AM »
Hi Andy, is this related somehow to your hints about some update to cameras? http://www.canonrumors.com/2014/02/hardware-hack-for-eos-cameras-coming-soon-cr1