Author Topic: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???  (Read 498 times)

current96a

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 6
6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« on: June 11, 2019, 05:32:08 AM »
Hi guys. Im new here on this forum. I know a bit and follow magic lantern for 2 years now i think, but i never went much into details. Im a video editor that likes to shoot videos and stills. Since i use nikon d3300 and have not much invested in nikon gear i decided to go for upgrade on canon full frame and 6D or 5D mark 3. Sony is my option also, cuz i want a good video, but i love and respect canon lenses much much much more and have remembered that ML might have something nice instead of going to shitty hellfire sony.

Soo basically, i am here to ask you guys for more defined specs and options. Because i have been here for 3-4 hours now looking at cameras and ml options. I have seen some 4k mentions, i have seen some 3.5/3.2k, i have seen some 2k, i have seen some 18xx wide resolutions. I have seen that some have sensor crop on ml raw video, i have seen that some options have limitations, while other are continuous...

So can i please get someone to sumarise a bit for me or give me some useful guidlines for it?

I just need 10-12 bit raw video for 25fps ( eu pal ) for some decent resolution with continuous recording. I also wonder how much memory would specific options eat, so that i prepare sd and cf cards?

From what i understood is that 6d has limited buffer and therefor cant record-write more than 40mbps. Thats good, and bad if u ask me. i dont want a huge file sizes, but i do wonder what i could get on that at 25fps?
For 5d i understood that it has 25fps full hd continuous, but im not sure if it is with cropped sensor or not? What about the higher resolutions taht are mentioned for it, like 3.5k and similar?

Thank you for your attention, Aleksandar

current96a

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 04:55:58 PM »
By now i have found some info online and the one that most worked for me is:

https://www.eoshd.com/2017/06/magic-lantern-raw-video-current-camera-capabilities-updated-2017/

But thats 2017. and i have not found much never info. So is this legit and were there any upgrades to this by now?

Again. My main concert is 6d and 5dm3 and magic lantern raw continuous video options in them.
I would like to see options with full sensor, but im okay with croping also.

Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 05:47:11 PM »
Much happened since 2017.
If money isn't an issue, then everybody here would suggest, go for the 5d3, by far the most active supported/developed magic lantern camera with fast compact flash card write speed for raw video.
Plus that the 5d3 is the only Canon camera supported by Magic Lantern that does vertical pixelbinning, all other cameras, also the 6d don't do vertical pixelbinning but skip lines.
This means that you would get far less moire on the 5d3 videos compared to 6d. (Although you can fix a lot in post, but it's much easier when it isn't there in the first place  :P)

Now I have a 6d.
With the crop_rec 4K build on the experimental page it has among the following options in video.
Lossless compression (14-bit lossless, 12 bit lossless and 11-8 bit lossless( last option varies and depends on your iso setting).
Raw resolution in full sensor (non crop) is 1824 x 1026 (can be set to 1824 x 1216 - Native 3:2 sensor aspect ratio)
In crop mode (5xzoom on display) it can do 2688 x 958 as max resolution. This is literally 1:1 pixel readout from the sensor, so a 5472 / 2688 = 2.0 crop factor.
Standard max write speed of the 6d tops at 40MB/s.
This means you can't get continuous recording times in 1824x1026 at 25 fps at 14 bit lossless...12 bit lossless should probably give about continuous recording time.

But here is the thing. There is an additional module which alters the settings for the SD card writer on your camera, and then the 6D can do ~60MB/s. (Doesn't work with all SD cards, Sandisk extreme pro range seems always a succes)
Works like a charm that module, as it is now, you won't even notice it's there  :D
And with that extra module, you get continuous recording in 1824 x 1026 at 25 fps at 14 bit lossless.
You can even get about continuous recording in 12 bit lossless in max crop resolution of 2688 x 958 at 25 fps.

Now the above all works really nice and stable (experimental crop_rec_4K build for 6d with the optional SD_UHS module)
But if you don't mind some more experimental stuff, you can use an alternative crop_rec module for the 6d with the above build.
Then the following resolutions are possible in crop mode:
2480 x 1396 at 25 fps (16:9 aspect ratio)
2880 x 1200 at 25 fps (1:2.40 aspect ratio)
These higher resolution crop modes don't work anymore with the standard lower then 14 bit lossless options in raw video menu.
But that is already sort of solved with a new 12 and 10 bit lossless option in crop_rec menu.
Although it isn't just as refined as the standard lower bit options, it works really good, sometimes the whitepoint is slightly off, but you can adjust white point in MLV_app easily.

Now these higher crop_rec resolutions can't be recorded continuous with the 60MB/s write speed. But you can lower for example the resolution to 2560x1072 (2.1 crop) and use 12 bit lossless and this gives you about continuous recording time.

So long story short:
6D:

40MB/s is the standard max write speed on the 6d.
60MB/s is the max write speed when the optional SD_UHS module is used and a card that supports this high speed mode (Sandisk Extreme pro).
1824 x 1026 is the standard 16:9 resolution.
2688 x 958 is the max resolution in crop/zoom mode in the standard build on the experimental page.
2880 x 1200 at 25 fps is the max crop/zoom resolution when using an alternative crop_rec module (See 6d thread) 

Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 05:52:49 PM »
I don't have a 5d3, so somebody else should confirm.
But I think this post from Alex when announcing the crop_rec 4K build is still relevant for the 5d3 I guess  ???

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19300.0

Dmytro_ua

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 86
  • Canon 5d mark III ML
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2019, 06:04:30 PM »
I don't have a 5d3, so somebody else should confirm.
But I think this post from Alex when announcing the crop_rec 4K build is still relevant for the 5d3 I guess  ???

https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19300.0

For me, the most usable RAW mode in 5d3 is - Full HD with realtime full colored LiveView + Proxy to have an opportunity to playback footage in camera.
50-60 fps modes are ok, but laggy LiveView is very limiting it's usage.

andy kh

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2019, 06:53:29 PM »
If money is not an issue go for 5d mark iii as it is the only camera with minimal moire better buy the right camera. I started with 550d ML and since its write speed is only 20 mb/s i upgraded to 650d which has the write speed of 40mb/s but i got so disappointed with the focus pixel so i upgraded to 70d but 70d has no fps override and suffer from moire so now i finally upgraded to 5D mark iii.
If you can buy 5d is the best..all other camera has some issues

current96a

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 12:24:34 AM »
Thank you all for your attention and help.

I know that 5d3 is a better option for all this, but that camera here in Serbia costs almost double than 6d :D It reaches the limit of my budget and with buying it i would probably endup only with some basic $100 lens such are 50mm or 40mm or some older usm zoom with variable aperture.  But going for 6d i could get 40mm and 105mm lenses (one of my favorite focal lenghts) and maybe even some other or atleast be half way to it. Or even invest in better cards, since atm i currently only have 1 sandisk 64gb extreme pro (sdxc v30 u3 10class 95mb/s). Later on, i should be able to get some more money, sell 6d and buy 5d3, or if im satisfied with 6d get some more lenses.

On a personal level, 1824 x 1026 and 1824 x 1216 resolutions with full 6d sensor in 25p and 14,12 and 10 bit sounds really nice. Also 2688 x 958 could be good for me since from time to time i do some experimental film work with one friend of mine, and "crazy" aspect ratios are good in that realm of videography :D

** So if i understood it right and question section:

1824 x 1026, 1824 x 1216 work with full sensor, but has line skipping while 2688 x 958 and other crop mode resolutions dont?

On normal 40mb/s buffer, 1824 x 1026, 1824 x 1216 and 2688 x 958 resolutions in continuous 25p video work only in 10 and maybe 12 bit? But if i install that 60mb/s module i may get them to do 14 bit?

Mentioned resolutions of 2480 x 1396 and 2880 x 1200 in continuous 25p work only in 60mb/s module and 14bit? But they cant be used in lower bit rates (12/10) and they have a crop/zoom ratio? How big is the crop ratio?

Among all these, what do you think its the best and safest option to work with in 25p? That 1824 x 1026 it 10bit sounds safest and promising, but 14bit with it sure is tempting just as 2480 x 1396 and 2880 x 1200 is.  What about live view when recording all these, any problem there? File breaking, camera heating up and turning off or even frying something?

Any options for frame rate faster than 25?


Many of this things already got me sold for 6d, cause i really wouldnt like to go on 6d and be without lenses.

current96a

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 12:28:38 AM »
For me, the most usable RAW mode in 5d3 is - Full HD with realtime full colored LiveView + Proxy to have an opportunity to playback footage in camera.
50-60 fps modes are ok, but laggy LiveView is very limiting it's usage.

that kinda thing is what really would satisfy me and my workflow. I dont need many pixels. just good fhd is enough to me. Just so far it is pretty safe, practical, problemfree and somewhat easy to use once it is set up and practiced a bit. Something nice on 6d would be nice even if wide resolution would be around 1700-1800 px.

Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 11:15:02 AM »
First to clear up the difference between recording speed and buffer.
The 6D has a free internal memory buffer space of ~250MB
Standard write speed it can do without any trickery is 40MB/s

Now if you record something that needs more bandwidth then 40MB/s, the camera moves the frames/data it doesn't have time to write to SD card, to the buffer.
So for example 1824 x 1026 at 25 fps at 14 bit lossless creates around ~50MB/s of data.
The camera can write 40MB/s of that data to the memory card, and it puts the remaining 10MB/s of data in the memory buffer.
When you know this, you can calculate expected recording time since you know the buffer size -> 250MB / 10MB/s = 25 seconds.
At 25 seconds, the buffer memory is full, the camera is out of options with what to do with 50MB/s data rate, it can only move 40MB/s to the SD card and buffer memory is full...so recording stops, camera empties the buffer to the magic lantern video file on the SD card.

1824 x 1026, 1824 x 1216 work with full sensor, but has line skipping while 2688 x 958 and other crop mode resolutions dont?

Yes, full sensor modes do horizontal binning and vertical line skipping.
Crop modes are literaly 1:1 pixel readout, no binning or lineskipping.

On normal 40mb/s buffer, 1824 x 1026, 1824 x 1216 and 2688 x 958 resolutions in continuous 25p video work only in 10 and maybe 12 bit? But if i install that 60mb/s module i may get them to do 14 bit?

Mentioned resolutions of 2480 x 1396 and 2880 x 1200 in continuous 25p work only in 60mb/s module and 14bit? But they cant be used in lower bit rates (12/10) and they have a crop/zoom ratio? How big is the crop ratio?

Among all these, what do you think its the best and safest option to work with in 25p? That 1824 x 1026 it 10bit sounds safest and promising, but 14bit with it sure is tempting just as 2480 x 1396 and 2880 x 1200 is.  What about live view when recording all these, any problem there? File breaking, camera heating up and turning off or even frying something?
Since you have a 64gb extreme pro, I suggest you go for the SD_UHS module option to have ~ 60MB/s of write speed.
(see link in this post for 6d version https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=12862.msg217163#msg217163)

With this you can record continuously:
1824 x 1026 at 25 fps in 14 bit lossless ( creates around ~50MB/s of video data)
1824 x 1216 at 25 fps in 14 bit lossless is probably continuously in most situations ( ~60MB/s) But if you want to be on the safe side you could switch to 12 bit lossless ( ~50MB/s)

2688 x 958 at 25 fps in 12 bit lossless is around ~60MB/s, so probably continuous in most situations, you could go to 11- bit lossless which is more around ~55MB/s.

Crop modes are 1:1 pixel readout, photos on the 6D are 5472 pixels wide, so crop factors can be calculated by dividing both resolutions -> 5472 / 2688 = 2.0 crop factor.

The above resolutions are maximum resolution, you could change these in magic lantern menu to other more common aspect ratios.
You can change 2688x958 for example to 2240 x 954 (2.35:1 aspect ratio) this gives you a crop factor of 5472/2240 = 2.4

Don't expect to get  continuously recording in special crop modes like 2480 x 1396 and 2880 x 1200.
Even with 10 bit option these max resolutions still needs around 75MB/s.
It is great fun tho for shooting short ~10 seconds clip , you can lower it a bit to 2736 x 1144 to get exact 2x crop factor and have some extra seconds recording time.

About live view:
Now live view works normal in full sensor view (1824 x 1026 and 1824 x 1216).
In crop modes it's a different story:
With basic crop mode available in the experimental crop_rec build, live view is still acting normal, only problem is, you're not seeing the whole frame.
When going into crop mode or 5x zoom mode on Canon camera's you get a live view image that is more like 1:1 pixel readout in 1280 x 720 resolution.
The raw data buffer that is beyond this view is bigger then what is on your screen (2688x958)
Magic lantern has an extra option called preview mode (which can be set on all the time, or can be triggered by using half shutter press) this mode gives you an exact liveview framing preview of the image you are recording. Caveat here that this preview mode is not as starp and refined in resolution as is Canon's liveview and it is definitely not 25 frames per second, probably more like 5 frames per second or so ? )
You can't use magic lantern preview to focus, it's more there for framing purposes.
So when I want to record in crop mode, I use the preview option with half shutter press to check framing, and use canon live view for focussing and following the action during recording (while once in a while during record I use half shutter to check framing, this can be used while recording and doesn't affect it)

Now the exotic crop modes are something different, they do mess up Canon live view in most cameras and modes.
Although on 6d I have normal canon live view working for 2480 x 1396 and 2880 x 1200 modes. (without correct framing, but the like 1:1 readout 1280 x 720 resolution)
But it all looks a little buggier when activating these exotic crop modes and going through different zoom modes to get into the right one for recording.

For safest/best option and normal user experience the full sensor mode works best (1824 x 1026) and has correct live view.
Furthermore it's always safest bet to use 14 bit lossless recording option.

The lower bit options do use some trickery to achieve lower data rate. (If I'm not mistaken, it lowers the exposure digitally in the background, cutting of shadow detail)
So you're file basically stays 14 bit, but there is no data in the upper bits (digitally lowered exposure), white level is adjusted to new bit option.
Some editors do read this new white level fine and adjust exposure accordingly, other editors don't use these new white level and showing you an underexposed image, which you can adjust just fine manually by pushing exposure slider.
Now you know this, it sounds a little bit tricky, but in reality it works really good and gives good results. 12 bit lossless is a very good option when needed.

Any options for frame rate faster than 25?

The 6d can do 50/60 fps (depending on PAL/NTSC selection and you can record this in raw with magic lantern.
Caveat, the lineskipping is higher then normal 25/30 fps mode.
For 50/60fps, canon reads every 5th vertical line instead of every 3th line as in 25/30fps mode, so expect worse moire/aliasing.
So image needs to be stretched by a factor 5/3 = 1.67 to get normal aspect ratio image.

The experimental crop_rec 4K build gives you a crop mode option to have normal lineskipping factor.
But resolution is then reduced to 1824x634

With exotic crop modes, which are a little buggier in user experience, these resolution can be expanded to 1824 x 818 resolution.

Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 11:20:37 AM »
that kinda thing is what really would satisfy me and my workflow. I dont need many pixels. just good fhd is enough to me. Just so far it is pretty safe, practical, problemfree and somewhat easy to use once it is set up and practiced a bit. Something nice on 6d would be nice even if wide resolution would be around 1700-1800 px.

For that I suggest to start off with the crop_rec 4K build form the experimental downloads page:
https://builds.magiclantern.fm/jenkins/job/crop_rec_4k/80/artifact/platform/6D.116/magiclantern-crop_rec_4k.2018Jul22.6D116.zip

Trust me, this build is as stable as normal nightly build, I see no reason why this build isn't on the normal download page  :D
This build has lossless recording option which isn't offered in the standard nightly build.
You will want these lossless recording options because it lowers the data rate by about 60% EDIT: data rate is about 60% from the original, so 40% lower data rate.

Furthermore I do suggest you try out the SD_UHS module for 6d, since you already have the right Sandisk card for it. See this post:
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=12862.msg217163#msg217163

Danne

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5329
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2019, 11:33:51 AM »
Those builds includes the power timing issue which sometimes causes subtle image corruption.

Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2019, 11:54:33 AM »
You’re right, if this build is used with a custmized crop_rec module file.
But if this build is used as it is, there are no problems.
And you still have the standard crop zoom option in 5 x zoom mode (2688x958), which doesn’t need and rely on crop_rec module.

When you want to experiment with the exotic crop options(2480x1396 or 2880x1200), Danne is right.
You then need to download an updated version of the crop_rec 4k build. Which is available in the 6d thread.

current96a

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2019, 03:58:27 PM »
So if i would install crop_rec_4k module with 60mb/s one, I would get:

Continuous 1824 x 1026 at 25 fps in 14 bit lossless safe to use, but on full sensor with line skipping and normal live view preview?
Continuous 1824 x 1216 at 25 fps in 14 bit lossless possible, but to be safe could use 12bit. Still full sensor with line skipping and normal live view preview?
Continuous 2688 x 958 at 25 fps in 12 bit lossless, but to be safe could use 10bit? At that point it uses part of the sensor, but without line skipping, and live view may be problematic?
Continuous higher fps rate with 1824x634 withnormal lineskipping, or 5pixel skipping with full normal resolutions?

-

On the other hand, in normal, nightly build i may use those resolutions and options only in 14 bit, without lowering it, and therefor no continuous for some options?

Also, if i understood right, in all modes/builds/modules, bit options lower than 14bit may be problematic, so to be safest possible should always use 14bit?

In the end, i would certainly need 60mb/s module if i were to use any continuous with mentioned resolutions? On original 40mb/s 10 bit might be possible, but 10bit may be problematic to use?

Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2019, 12:24:36 AM »
So if i would install crop_rec_4k module with 60mb/s one, I would get:

Continuous 1824 x 1026 at 25 fps in 14 bit lossless safe to use, but on full sensor with line skipping and normal live view preview?
Continuous 1824 x 1216 at 25 fps in 14 bit lossless possible, but to be safe could use 12bit. Still full sensor with line skipping and normal live view preview?
Continuous 2688 x 958 at 25 fps in 12 bit lossless, but to be safe could use 10bit? At that point it uses part of the sensor, but without line skipping, and live view may be problematic?
Continuous higher fps rate with 1824x634 withnormal lineskipping, or 5pixel skipping with full normal resolutions?

Yes that's right.

On the other hand, in normal, nightly build i may use those resolutions and options only in 14 bit, without lowering it, and therefor no continuous for some options?

I have no idea why anybody wants to use the nightly build (without lossless recording) when there is an crop_rec_4K build available with lossless recording support for their camera.
As you open the forum discussion mentioned below the build:
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=19300.msg182052#msg182052
You can read that it was introduced at April first 2017...then it got refined, some camera's where added and the builds that are downloadable now are from 22 juli 2018.
So it's tested by many users and I didn't see any forum discusions about people bricking their camera due to this build, which is available for almost a year.
In my opinion it's as stable and safe to use as the nightly build.

Also, if i understood right, in all modes/builds/modules, bit options lower than 14bit may be problematic, so to be safest possible should always use 14bit?
In the end, i would certainly need 60mb/s module if i were to use any continuous with mentioned resolutions? On original 40mb/s 10 bit might be possible, but 10bit may be problematic to use?
It's not as bad as you might think, it's more that if lower bit options are used, you might run into some pink highlights sometimes. But these can be fixed with adjusting white level, for example in the easy to use MLV_app.

It's a lot easier to get continuously recording with lossless recording option (not available in nightly build, but is available in crop_rec_4k build).
You probably can get continuous recording in 1824 x 1026 with normal 40MB/s when using 11 bit lossless or lower.

current96a

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 6
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2019, 02:50:01 AM »
Man, you helped me understand a lot here. You got me sold! Now just to gather my savings, sell my nikon gear and get 6d with lenses. Just wondering, last thing i guess, about audio recording. Will i need some external recorder or 6d can record audio along a lossless videos in crop_rec_4k? Including the 60mb/s card option on and live view preview at that point.

Btw, this topic turned mostly on 6d, unlike my title says :D
Tho it is due the fact that along the way i found out a ton of info on 5d3, and you explaining things here helped me understand good part on 5d3 also.


Levas

  • Contributor
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1463
  • 6d - Nightly build user
Re: 6D and 5d mark 3 video options wit ML???
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2019, 11:13:29 AM »
6d does audio recording along with lossless raw recording (I think almost all supported magic lantern camera's with video options do, except of course the 50D  ;D )
The above situations, resolutions etc are all about the same with audio recording.
Audio recording stream is not that big, if I'm not mistaken it's 1.5Mbit/s (Yes Megabit, not even MegaByte).
So 1.5Mbits / 8 = 0.2 MB/s...of audio stream...

Turned out to a 6d thread.
Like I said in the beginning, if money is not a problem, go for the 5d3, far less moire and higher resolutions and write speeds possible.
But as you said, it's double the price of a 6d, so apparently money does influence your choice.
So a 6d thread it is  :P