Author Topic: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage  (Read 594437 times)

Andy600

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1863
  • Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #150 on: April 27, 2014, 11:32:11 AM »
@Jbowdach - Check your email ;)

There is a section of the Cinelog Resolve LUTs guide that details the differences between ACR and Resolve. ACR has the edge in some things but Resolve is much faster.

@mixmastermike - We have just about finished the first overview and basic tutorial videos but I'm not in the office and can't upload them until tomorrow. There are a few videos that use Cinelog on Vimeo. Just search for Cinelog by date. The videos begin about 2 weeks ago.

A couple of the videos are using a beta of Cinelog-C (no color) which is part of our new, simple recipe system for applying color depending on the final look you are aiming for. The Cinelog-C input LUTs go from no color, flat for maximum flexibility, Photometric for ENG/Documentary work and a new, Alexa inspired Film Matrix for use of Print Film Emulation LUTs (Kodak, Fuji etc). All the new LUTS are center weighted, Log-C compatible. Using different combinations of input and output LUTs will achieve very different looks. This will be a free update :)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Jbowdach

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Editor\Colorist for Cinetic Studios
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #151 on: April 27, 2014, 07:15:13 PM »
Many thanks. Looking forward to the Logc updates luts!

mixmastermike

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 83
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #152 on: April 27, 2014, 08:01:52 PM »
@andy600

Thanks, Ill check out Cinelog on vimeo

arturochu

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
  • Filmmaker based in Mexico City
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #153 on: April 27, 2014, 11:41:35 PM »
A couple of the videos are using a beta of Cinelog-C (no color) which is part of our new, simple recipe system for applying color depending on the final look you are aiming for. The Cinelog-C input LUTs go from no color, flat for maximum flexibility, Photometric for ENG/Documentary work and a new, Alexa inspired Film Matrix for use of Print Film Emulation LUTs (Kodak, Fuji etc). All the new LUTS are center weighted, Log-C compatible. Using different combinations of input and output LUTs will achieve very different looks. This will be a free update :)

when can we expect the final release of the Log-C combo?

also you told me you were gonna send me the acr version of cinelog, since i bought cinelog for resolve in the first 24 hrs, still waiting.  ::)
Chu

Andy600

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1863
  • Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #154 on: April 28, 2014, 01:13:31 AM »
when can we expect the final release of the Log-C combo?

also you told me you were gonna send me the acr version of cinelog, since i bought cinelog for resolve in the first 24 hrs, still waiting.  ::)

Hi Chu,

Cinelog-C - It will be within the next couple of weeks

ACR version - I did send it but I will send it again :)

Did you receive/download the Resolve LUT update last week?
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

arturochu

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
  • Filmmaker based in Mexico City
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #155 on: April 28, 2014, 02:11:24 AM »
Hi Chu,

Cinelog-C - It will be within the next couple of weeks

ACR version - I did send it but I will send it again :)

Did you receive/download the Resolve LUT update last week?

got your mail from today and i did recieved the lut update from last week, thx!

Cheers
Chu

dossisman

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #156 on: April 28, 2014, 09:42:00 PM »
Hi Chu,

Cinelog-C - It will be within the next couple of weeks

ACR version - I did send it but I will send it again :)

Did you receive/download the Resolve LUT update last week?

I would love to get my hands on that beta of Cinelog-C! Need any beta testers?

50Deezil

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #157 on: April 30, 2014, 08:11:32 PM »
I'm not sure I understand the differences in going thru ACR versus Resolve or even RawTherapee to debayer.  Which will yield the best results regardless of time and what is the actual visual difference?

Jbowdach

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Editor\Colorist for Cinetic Studios
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #158 on: April 30, 2014, 10:41:33 PM »
I'm not sure I understand the differences in going thru ACR versus Resolve or even RawTherapee to debayer.  Which will yield the best results regardless of time and what is the actual visual difference?

ACR and Resolve are two different ponys rides that end at the same camp. They use very different methods of "debayering" the raw data, and both have the positives and negatives (which can be found on this forum), but both are valid methods of working. It's truly whichever YOU prefer and which you are most comfortable with. If they all seem "challenging", try learning one, see the results, try the other and compare which you like.

Personally, I'm a colorist who works in Resolve for the past year or so (long before I started w ML Raw). With that being said, It's a software package I'm already very familiar so its my clear choice for processing. I'm sure if I tried ACR, i would find slightly different results but still be pleasant but, because post is already a lot of work, do what works best for you. Read the comparisons, try some testing yourself if you are curious, but they both work very well.

marekk

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
  • www.oddajmisie.com
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #159 on: May 05, 2014, 03:25:00 PM »
I've just bought Cinelog with Resolve LUTs and I'm going to test Resolve -> Cinelog -> Prores 4444 or 422 HQ -> FCPX on my new footage. I'm going to post my conclusions later.

Jbowdach

  • Freshman
  • **
  • Posts: 74
  • Editor\Colorist for Cinetic Studios
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #160 on: May 05, 2014, 04:47:27 PM »
so Ive spent some time grading some regular MLV, some cinelog and some visionlog. Something unique I noticed with Cinelog is that it compressed the curve significantly more than visionlog, but seem to "stretch" out without any depredation at all (hopefully that would replicate if rendered to out a ProRes 444 or 422HQ). Does the more highly compressed curve more realistically mimic log?

 Im also little confused how we can do a LogC conversion besides applying the Luts directly via a separate node (which seems to work w/o issue) as applying via a monitor put seems to only apply as a viewing Lut, no applying it to out footage.

Lastly, i was curious what Cinelog color and how it compares to stock MLV, Visionlog converted,  cinelog, and Cinelog converted to LogC. This is all within Resolve 10 and not ACR, if that wasn't already made clear.

Many thanks for your help!

Jason

7D Raw (fw 2.0.3 and TL)
Lexar 1000x Card

Metsadah

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 14
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #161 on: May 06, 2014, 08:16:25 AM »
I've tried the davinci stuff and I like it.

My workflow now is: in Davinci go to cinelog with a lut and export it to prores (4444), then in premiere I go back from cinelog to c-log (alexa one) and apply film convert where I choose for the alexa c-log option as well.

My colors seem a bit harsh like this right out of the box, nothing that can be fixed though.
I was wondering if this is a good workflow. Isn't it better to go directly to c-log in davinci?


marekk

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
  • www.oddajmisie.com
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #162 on: May 06, 2014, 11:30:18 AM »
I've tried the davinci stuff and I like it.

My workflow now is: in Davinci go to cinelog with a lut and export it to prores (4444), then in premiere I go back from cinelog to c-log (alexa one) and apply film convert where I choose for the alexa c-log option as well.

My colors seem a bit harsh like this right out of the box, nothing that can be fixed though.
I was wondering if this is a good workflow. Isn't it better to go directly to c-log in davinci?

Yesterday I exported my footage from dng -> cinelog > c-log in Resolve. It's much faster than export in AE... I can play my cdng footage in Resolve 24fps with luts applied so it's really nice for editing. I applied also a sharpening just before setting cinelog -> c-log lut  using nodes with saturation set to 0, luma gain to 0,01 and layer mixer. I really don't know if it's a good approach to perform sharpening with log footage but it looks fine for me.

50Deezil

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #163 on: May 07, 2014, 05:56:31 AM »
Been fun learning how to use Cinelog with Resolve 10.  I've been running my MLV's thru MLVMystic using the 2x2 Chroma smoothing.  So far everything looks pretty good.  It took a bit of work for me to figure out how to get my White Balance right, but it's getting easier as I keep practicing.  I've got some Commercials and a Wedding coming up over the next few months.  Should be ready by then.  Amazing how good the 50D can look considering it's older than any other DSLR I have.  VERY HAPPY with Cinelog so far.  Still got a lot to learn about Color Grading etc.

marekk

  • Senior
  • ****
  • Posts: 331
  • www.oddajmisie.com
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #164 on: May 07, 2014, 11:38:36 AM »
My new video:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11765.0
Workflow: mlv_dump > [ Davinci Resolve -> Cinelog -> Arri Log-C -> Prores 4444 ] -> FCPX

dossisman

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #165 on: May 07, 2014, 09:39:29 PM »
My new video:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11765.0
Workflow: mlv_dump > [ Davinci Resolve -> Cinelog -> Arri Log-C -> Prores 4444 ] -> FCPX

Marekk, how did you turn Cinelog to Arri Log C? Help?

bennyray1

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #166 on: May 08, 2014, 01:15:16 AM »
Wondering if someone with more experience than me with using Log footage can help me wrap my head around "Why should I ever convert my RAW footage to Cinelog or any Log transformation?"...I have read the obvious answer provided by Cinelog that it is very helpful for storage, which yes seems very reasonable. I have been trying to work with this product and just still have not had that "AHHHHHHHH" moment.Maybe I am sure it is based on my novice and limited experience, but why should I convert my footage shot RAW to LOG, and then have to convert that footage to C-Log, and then color grade that footage to my liking. After all those transformations I can never seem to get my footage to anything that resembles anything other than flat and life less. I have a understanding that camera's like the Arri can capture in camera LOG footage and that has real benefit based on the real dynamic range it captures and leverage with post production. I have captured RAW footage with my 60d, color balanced in both ACR and Resolve (I have tried both workflows), applied Cinelog LOG and then C-Log to my footage and then have tried to color grade from there,but have ended up with real disappointing results. When I have used just ACR and no LOG transformation my footage is full of life and has real vibrance and it shows the capabilities of what RAW can do. Am I missing something here, why do you need to transform  footage to LOG, just to try and get it back to what it was. Yes I am in no way a colorist, but I have worked very hard to learn basic concepts and important steps to create balanced footage, I want to achieve the film look (who doesn't right) so i thought the process of LOG tranformation would help me, but I just can not seem to make it look like anything that is epic or similar to what others have achieved. I am not bashing this product at all, i just need a better understanding of a work flow that can help me achieve excellent results. I read the manual also and it never mentioned to then transform Cinelog to C-Log, but I see others have done this? Maybe a explanation of that reasoning would be helpful. I come to the community as someone who just wants to improve my video skills, and have been very impressed with every single aspect ML has to offer, from the product to the forum. I have sent a message to the developer but never received a reply, so I thought I would just pose my conundrum right here. Thanks again, and any advice would be helpful.

Andy600

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1863
  • Have you tried turning it off and on again?
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #167 on: May 08, 2014, 02:22:27 AM »
@bennyray1 - I reply to every inquiry but didn't receive your email  ??? Can you resend?

The Log-C transform was part of the DaVinci Resolve LUT pack. As you were an early customer you should have received an email from us about a month ago with a complimentary copy of the Resolve LUTS. Let me know if you didn't get it.

Re: raw to log - The main benefits are in storage. The image information can be compressed into log encoded, visually lossless 10bit video. This can be expanded back to linear with very little degradation and is a fraction the size of the raw DNG files. Log encoding also replicates how film negative responds to light.

We include a Cinelog to Rec709 LUT which expands your Cinelog video to Rec709 colorspace. You can then grade under the LUT (i.e. the Rec709 is the final stage) for quick results. Conforming Log footage to a workable, contrasty look without a LUT is actually very easy. You only need to use contrast/pivot and offset controls (as in DaVinci Resolve's Log controls) but you can also use the Cineon convertor in AE (we included an AE preset that replicates the Rec709 LUT) or AE/PP's Contrast and brightness plugins.

We are finalizing the new release called Cinelog-C. It's taking some time to achieve but we can now map with good accuracy, any raw DNG to any colorspace including Adobe, Sony SGamut + Cine, Wide Gamut, SMPTE-C etc and/or gamma (S-Log, S-Log2, AlexaV3Log-C, Rec709, ACES, Linear). For instance, we just mapped the Sony FS700/Odyssey 4K combination for a customer who wanted to transcode his raw CinemaDNGs to AlexaV3Log-C Wide gamut RGB ProRes444 as the stock sony/slog luts were pretty useless. He now has Sony footage that looks and behaves more or less like Log-C ProRes from the Alexa. The Alexa color separation is there. Your 60D will be able to do this too within limits ;) This may seem like a lot of jargon but it is actually a very powerful set of tools and to the best of my knowledge is the only LUT set that can do a reversible transform from/to Rec709/BMD Film. Essentially, we can take footage shot on your 60D and make it look like it was shot on a Sony, BMD, Alexa etc but obviously within the limits of your cameras sensor and DR. 
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Jpb1138

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #168 on: May 08, 2014, 02:50:30 AM »
@Andy600 When will the CINELOG-C LUTs be ready? So excited for those. Have been using 'bmd to cinelog 2.0' and 'cinelog to log-c' with good success on some videos, in combination with 'look' LUTs from Osiris.


Heres my workflow in Davinci Resolve (with pics) (All of the 'look' LUts are tweaked some post conversion, and that should be expected, mostly skin tones, but overall about 5 extra minutes of work..


BMD FILM


TO: Cinelog 2.0


TO: LOG-C (from Cinelog 2.0 to LOG-C LUT)


At this point the possibilities are endless... Grade your own way or go the route of Look LUTs, like Osiris, Film emulation LUTs, etc.

Here are a few of the Osiris LUTs from this point:

DK79 LUT


VISION 4 LUT


JUGO LUT


M31 LUT


KDX LUT


Again as with all LUTs, tweaking per shot afterwards is essential. But this should give you the idea that any look is possible, with the right starting point, and some nice finishing LUTs or your own custom look.

Enjoy. To see the video I made using this workflow:

dossisman

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #169 on: May 08, 2014, 02:52:28 AM »
@bennyray1 - I reply to every inquiry but didn't receive your email  ??? Can you resend?

The Log-C transform was part of the DaVinci Resolve LUT pack. As you were an early customer you should have received an email from us about a month ago with a complimentary copy of the Resolve LUTS. Let me know if you didn't get it.

Re: raw to log - The main benefits are in storage. The image information can be compressed into log encoded, visually lossless 10bit video. This can be expanded back to linear with very little degradation and is a fraction the size of the raw DNG files. Log encoding also replicates how film negative responds to light.

We include a Cinelog to Rec709 LUT which expands your Cinelog video to Rec709 colorspace. You can then grade under the LUT (i.e. the Rec709 is the final stage) for quick results. Conforming Log footage to a workable, contrasty look without a LUT is actually very easy. You only need to use contrast/pivot and offset controls (as in DaVinci Resolve's Log controls) but you can also use the Cineon convertor in AE (we included an AE preset that replicates the Rec709 LUT) or AE/PP's Contrast and brightness plugins.

We are finalizing the new release called Cinelog-C. It's taking some time to achieve but we can now map with good accuracy, any raw DNG to any colorspace including Adobe, Sony SGamut + Cine, Wide Gamut, SMPTE-C etc and/or gamma (S-Log, S-Log2, AlexaV3Log-C, Rec709, ACES, Linear). For instance, we just mapped the Sony FS700/Odyssey 4K combination for a customer who wanted to transcode his raw CinemaDNGs to AlexaV3Log-C Wide gamut RGB ProRes444 as the stock sony/slog luts were pretty useless. He now has Sony footage that looks and behaves more or less like Log-C ProRes from the Alexa. The Alexa color separation is there. Your 60D will be able to do this too within limits ;) This may seem like a lot of jargon but it is actually a very powerful set of tools and to the best of my knowledge is the only LUT set that can do a reversible transform from/to Rec709/BMD Film. Essentially, we can take footage shot on your 60D and make it look like it was shot on a Sony, BMD, Alexa etc but obviously within the limits of your cameras sensor and DR.

Andy600, I didn't download the Resolve LUT until the update. When I downloaded the updated LUT it only had the BMCC>Cinelog LUT. How can I get my hands on the LOG_C convertion LUT?

*Edit* I'm actually going to email you guys through the Cinelog website, instead.

bennyray1

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #170 on: May 08, 2014, 03:39:55 AM »
@bennyray1 - I reply to every inquiry but didn't receive your email  ??? Can you resend?

The Log-C transform was part of the DaVinci Resolve LUT pack. As you were an early customer you should have received an email from us about a month ago with a complimentary copy of the Resolve LUTS. Let me know if you didn't get it.

Re: raw to log - The main benefits are in storage. The image information can be compressed into log encoded, visually lossless 10bit video. This can be expanded back to linear with very little degradation and is a fraction the size of the raw DNG files. Log encoding also replicates how film negative responds to light.

We include a Cinelog to Rec709 LUT which expands your Cinelog video to Rec709 colorspace. You can then grade under the LUT (i.e. the Rec709 is the final stage) for quick results. Conforming Log footage to a workable, contrasty look without a LUT is actually very easy. You only need to use contrast/pivot and offset controls (as in DaVinci Resolve's Log controls) but you can also use the Cineon convertor in AE (we included an AE preset that replicates the Rec709 LUT) or AE/PP's Contrast and brightness plugins.

We are finalizing the new release called Cinelog-C. It's taking some time to achieve but we can now map with good accuracy, any raw DNG to any colorspace including Adobe, Sony SGamut + Cine, Wide Gamut, SMPTE-C etc and/or gamma (S-Log, S-Log2, AlexaV3Log-C, Rec709, ACES, Linear). For instance, we just mapped the Sony FS700/Odyssey 4K combination for a customer who wanted to transcode his raw CinemaDNGs to AlexaV3Log-C Wide gamut RGB ProRes444 as the stock sony/slog luts were pretty useless. He now has Sony footage that looks and behaves more or less like Log-C ProRes from the Alexa. The Alexa color separation is there. Your 60D will be able to do this too within limits ;) This may seem like a lot of jargon but it is actually a very powerful set of tools and to the best of my knowledge is the only LUT set that can do a reversible transform from/to Rec709/BMD Film. Essentially, we can take footage shot on your 60D and make it look like it was shot on a Sony, BMD, Alexa etc but obviously within the limits of your cameras sensor and DR.

Thank you very much sir, and yeah I know using your product is not just a easy fix, I must work at it...and every situation is completely different, and my taste is simply my taste. I am going to continue to better my skills with your product and will simply get better at the combination of possibilities for grading on a situational bases.  I really appreciate the customer service, and you taking to time to enlighten me, I blame my lack of knowledge on the entire color space and will work to better my skills and finish a great product.I look forward to all updates sir,and again thank you for the time to answer my question.

bennyray1

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #171 on: May 08, 2014, 03:42:26 AM »
Andy600, I didn't download the Resolve LUT until the update. When I downloaded the updated LUT it only had the BMCC>Cinelog LUT. How can I get my hands on the LOG_C convertion LUT?

*Edit* I'm actually going to email you guys through the Cinelog website, instead.

Thank you so much.

bennyray1

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #172 on: May 08, 2014, 04:10:40 AM »
@bennyray1 - I reply to every inquiry but didn't receive your email  ??? Can you resend?

 Log encoding also replicates how film negative responds to light.



Thank you, this is what I was looking for, plus I think Resolve seems to be my issue. I am going to go back a do more with ACR, less noise and I seem to know the programs a lot more.Thanks again.

bennyray1

  • New to the forum
  • *
  • Posts: 49
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #173 on: May 08, 2014, 04:54:56 AM »
Okay getting better results, BMD film needs to be applied for sure before import of DNG's or the wrong color space will mess up everything...
Balanced BMD

Beginning BMD


Cinelog


C-Log


Vision 6 LUT



arturochu

  • Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 129
  • Filmmaker based in Mexico City
Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #174 on: May 08, 2014, 06:16:42 AM »

We are finalizing the new release called Cinelog-C. It's taking some time to achieve but we can now map with good accuracy, any raw DNG to any colorspace including Adobe, Sony SGamut + Cine, Wide Gamut, SMPTE-C etc and/or gamma (S-Log, S-Log2, AlexaV3Log-C, Rec709, ACES, Linear). For instance, we just mapped the Sony FS700/Odyssey 4K combination for a customer who wanted to transcode his raw CinemaDNGs to AlexaV3Log-C Wide gamut RGB ProRes444 as the stock sony/slog luts were pretty useless. He now has Sony footage that looks and behaves more or less like Log-C ProRes from the Alexa. The Alexa color separation is there. Your 60D will be able to do this too within limits ;) This may seem like a lot of jargon but it is actually a very powerful set of tools and to the best of my knowledge is the only LUT set that can do a reversible transform from/to Rec709/BMD Film. Essentially, we can take footage shot on your 60D and make it look like it was shot on a Sony, BMD, Alexa etc but obviously within the limits of your cameras sensor and DR.

When?  :o
Chu