Raw Video: 50D vs 7D

[dogmydog]

Hello, ppl!

I'm own a 50D and a 7D and a big line up of EF and EF-S lenses.

I've been filming a webseries with my 50D with the Magic Lantern Hack and lovin' every minute of it.
Now it has come the time to buy the VAF filter. The problem is, i'm not sure if I get one for the 50D or the 7D.

I started this topic to ask you:
1) Does anyone had the experience of shooting raw video with the 50D and the 7D? Is there much of a difference to both?
2) Does the magic lantern alpha runs on the 7D as stable as the 50D? Is it just as reliable, since the 7D had that dual-digic sensor hold up?

Thank you all so much for the help,

[1%]

The 50D footage is cleaner and you can record outside of crop mode with less moire than 50D. Top end of 50D in zoom is better since you get full 2000x1000 or 1920x1080.

7D low light is better and you can record with audio. Crop mode 1080P isn't continuous but 1038 is close and you can just shoot 1152 in 1X and resize.

slightly less overheating than on 50D too.

7D is better for stills too... but there are some vertical stripes in shadows at higher ISO (3200, etc)... even in CR2

[dogmydog]

The 50D footage is cleaner and you can record outside of crop mode with less moire than 50D. Top end of 50D in zoom is better since you get full 2000x1000 or 1920x1080.

7D low light is better and you can record with audio. Crop mode 1080P isn't continuous but 1038 is close and you can just shoot 1152 in 1X and resize.

slightly less overheating than on 50D too.

7D is better for stills too... but there are some vertical stripes in shadows at higher ISO (3200, etc)... even in CR2

Ty so much, 1%! I didn't realize the 50D would have less moire than the 7D!
I'm definately gettin the VAF for the 50D. I really appreciate all the help and support!

[1%]

7D has less moire in 1x but they are equal at 5x since its read without all that skipping.

So 50D + zoom + wide lens = cheaper and larger frames as long as you light the scene and can shoot low ISO.

7D is more useful with normal lenses and has sound but costs more and the lines in the shadows (but I'm hoping that can be fixed with some PP, like 5DIII vertical banding)

Remember that VAF will only be good in 1x so you only have that "small" 15XX resolution. A VAF for 7D would probably clean up any moire left in the 1x but do nothing about the banding.

[ayshih]

The 50D footage is cleaner and you can record outside of crop mode with less moire than 50D.

7D has less moire in 1x but they are equal at 5x since its read without all that skipping.

In that first quote, is the first "50D" a typo and supposed to read "7D"?

[Midphase]

Lately I've become quite the fan of the 7D, next to the 5D3 it's really a strong raw camera.

IMHO crop mode is a less than practical solution to a problem which is unfortunately inherent to these cameras. If one is ok shooting on what is essentially an almost 8mm sized sensor, then why not get a Blackmagic Pocket Camera instead which not only offers a larger sensor, but also compatibility with a wider range of lenses, full 1080p raw recording, audio, built in focus peaking, no compromise output to external monitors and a bunch of features that I would think most shooters would be interested in.  Is it a perfect camera? Absolutely not! But neither is a hacked 50D.

Just my thoughts, please resume the previously scheduled conversation.

[1%]

A dedicated video camera is still ideal for everything if money isn't a factor... but dual use and video on the cheap is what its about.

50D - Cleaner looking footage, more moire in 1x +smaller res, pretty much no moire in 5x 1080P
7D -  a little lower moire in 1x, better than 6D, 50D, pretty much no moire in 5x, larger resolution choice in 5x, not necessarily continuous

[dogmydog]

Thank you all for the input.

The BMPCC doesn't work for me, because I'm working at a very low focal distance (13mm on a crop body, which is actually close to 20mm).
The crop on the BMPCC is a killer for me.

Also, as I stated before, I have a lot of money on canon glass:
17-55mm IS 2.8mm
10-22mm f3.5-4.5
70-200mm 2.8 IS II
15-85mm IS f3.5-5.6
50mm f1.4

I love my 7D and always shot H264 with it.
Now with the raw hack, I began using my father's 50D (which was retired) and invested in new batteries, a grip, AC Adapter and now a VAF Filter.

The 16:9 1584x892 resolution is enough for me so far, since most of my work are Youtube directed.

It is nice to know that the 7D isn't all that better compared to the 50D. I wondered if I was better investing my money on a VAF for the 7D, this is why I started the topic in the 1st place.

[Midphase]

The BMPCC doesn't work for me, because I'm working at a very low focal distance (13mm on a crop body, which is actually close to 20mm).
The crop on the BMPCC is a killer for me.

Right, so good thing you're not planning to shoot in crop mode on either Canon camera otherwise that 13mm would become closer to an 80mm!

[Andy600]

Right, so good thing you're not planning to shoot in crop mode on either Canon camera otherwise that 13mm would become closer to an 80mm!

50D crop with a 13mm is roughly equivalent to a 50mm on FF

[Midphase]

Ok, let's be exact, if it's a 5X crop then we're talking about 65mm.

If one wanted to shoot at an equivalent of a 35mm focal length (a fairly popular choice), then we're talking about securing a 7mm EF lens....doesn't seem practical.

[Andy600]

It's not 5x, at 1080p it's a sensor crop of 2.475 + the APSC 1.6x crop (so roughly a total crop of 4x at FF eq).

For 35mm eq you would need around 9mm (although obviously the DOF etc will not be the same as a 35mm). In practice I get some great results with 28mm and 50mm in crop mode... I just shoot from further away  Still waiting to see some 50D crop video shot on a Tokina 11-16. I've heard it's nice.

[dpjpandone]

I hope I don't offend anyone by posting in such an old thread, but I have been shooting raw on 50D and I love the image.I would like to purchase a second camera. The 7D is in my price range, but I am concerned with the vertical banding. I guess I'm looking for another 7D user to chime in and say "Go for it, it's a good upgrade from 50D, and the vertical banding is not that big of a deal"

is the vertical banding issue is present in h264 footage? One of the things I have read about 7D that sounds great is the ability to use an external monitor at 1080p while recording (all other canons drop to 480p during record)

[N/A]

Go for it, I've had my 7d for a few months now and I love it. I've only ever encountered the vertical banding problem when shooting underexposed shadows while doing some tests, and we have software to take care of that problem now anyway.

It's a sturdy camera, lighting fast (8 fps raw photo burst) which equals out to a nice sized buffer, usually allowing me to shoot up to 40 secs of 2.2k, 2.39:1 footage with sound. And the looks and compliments on this beast are certainly a plus 

The low light capabilities leave much to be desired, though. Video shot at iso 1600 requires quite a bit of nr to look presentable, and dynamic range falls off pretty drastically after iso 800. There aren't quite as many ML features either, due to the trouble of working with the dual digic setup.

I think the pro's outweigh the cons by a long shot for this camera personally, and once you get it in your hands and start pushing it to see what this baby can really do, its easy to forget all about the minor issues.

[Audionut]

The 7D is one of the cameras, that really benefits from ETTR.

You can try shooting at ISO 800 for reduced banding noise, but you'll probably need an ND filter for most movie recording.

[N/A]

Thanks for the link, pretty interesting stuff.

So would you recommend shooting at the same iso all the time, and just use nd's for daylight shoots?

Hmm, dynamic range is higher at iso 200 than iso 100, didn't expect that.

[Audionut]

In sunny 16 conditions, you might struggle to get large apertures with movie shooting.  But otherwise, the professional guys are always talking about using consistent ISO when shooting, for consistent noise patterns.

The pattern noise is only an issue in the deep shadows.  So if you're shooting a low DR scene (with ETTR), and/or, you're not looking to raise the shadow in post, then the pattern noise should be a non-issue.

For photography with largish DR scenes, consider dual ISO.  The higher ISO in dual ISO, does an excellent job of removing the pattern noise.

The increased DR at ISO 200, is due to the noise from the electronic components, reducing more, then loss of highlight detail.  FPN is very visually distracting, but only constitutes a small percentage of noise figures.  Considering this, the perceived DR, probably remains higher, for higher ISOs, then the figures suggest.

[N/A]

I see, thanks for the insight. I'm shooting a few video clips at a friend's wedding today, definitely going to put some of these suggestions to use. It's an outdoor wedding so the shadows might be problematic, if the 7d had dual iso video I could only imagine the dynamic range we could get out of this sensor in crop mode.

[handbanana]

Hmm I'm in a similar boat. I'm considering getting a 7D and I own a 50D, but so far I haven't gotten a definitive answer saying the 7D's RAW footage is in any way superior to the 50D (mostly figured it may be sharper), and it seems to not be as stable.

[keikun007]

is it worth selling my 60d to get a 50d?

[Midphase]

is it worh selling my 60d to get a 50d?

I don't think so. What are your needs?

How about you don't sell your 60D but rather add a 50D?

[keikun007]

i think having both would be redundant

i'm thinking about selling my 60d and wait till i get enough money to buy a gh4, but i'm still thinking. i wish there were something like magic lantern for it

[Midphase]

Why would you need a hack for the GH4? To shoot raw 4K? I find it difficult to believe that the SD card could keep up with the enormous data rates, considering that even the Blackmagic 4K needs to write compressed ProRes and eventually compressed CDNG on an SSD drive.

If you're itching to shoot raw, have you considered the Blackmagic Pocket equipped with the Speedbooster? More and more of my pro friends have bought it and love it. As a matter of fact, a good friend of mine (and a name in the industry) is planning to shoot his next feature on the pocket.

[keikun007]

but maybe other functions and a true 2k raw?
just wondering

[Andy600]

I'm with Midphase on this. The BM pocket with speedbooster is probably the best bang-for-your buck option. Some pros are bemoaning the color and DR of the stock GH4 (Stu Maschwitz returned his for the Sony). It really needs the add on + a 4K recorder to get the best from it. I think Convergent Designs are doing something for the GH4 with their Odyssey 7Q but it costs quite a bit for that set-up.

The 50D is certainly the best option if funds are limited. Add a VAF (or shoot non-crop) and an anamorphic lens and you can get some terrific images with very nice color.

If you simply 'must' go 4K the Sony A7s looks better than the GH4. It has insane low-light abilities and it's full frame but costly.

As for selling the 60D and getting a 50D as a replacement? If you only want it for raw video then yes but remember the 50D has no audio inputs/mic etc. The 7D is (on paper) better than the 50D but really there is not much in it when it comes to raw video. If anything, I think the 50D image looks nicer (and I've shot/worked with a lot of 7D and 50D raw footage).