Personal opinions on offering rewards for work.

[SimeonPilgrim]

That's why most development efforts that seek larger audience do both.  There are trade-offs.  I do believe I am not alone in this.  There are many people who would rather have stability than new features.  What gets developed, and how fast, is a philosophical question.  What would you rather have, new features that bring on 2-5 people, or stability that brings in hundreds?  So I'd put this another way, focusing only on development hinders acceptance and low acceptance ends up with loneliness and failure   (if I may wax poetic).

I read this thread and shake my head a lot. My background, I'm one of the lead developers on the Nikon hacking effort, so similar to this project (no where near as advanced, ML is amazing), but this is not my community, so I feel free to speak, as a developer, without offending "my peoples"

Now I've started to write, I not sure what my key message is.
Maybe as a developer in my day job, where I do "boring" stuff to make the product stable verse shinny new features, to grown market share, and make sure customers have working systems to achieve their goals, etc etc, this is how you do commercial systems. It's a job.

ML for me would be a creative outlet (that's what the Nikon stuff is). Just like photography is a creative outlet. Working out how the camera works, how you can twist it, what you can make it do, that's all fun. If it's a grind, chore, boring, I might as well hang out with my wife/children, go for a mountain bike ride, or just play xbox.

Sure there are people writing manuals, because they feel it's a "good thing", we have manual writers at work also, sounds like a job to me.

I have personal dept to the other developers who worked stuff out for me, or spent the time keeping the site hosted, but the people who just turn up and don't read the forum and ask the same question over and over. Strangely I don't care for them. That right I don't care for the users of my camera hacking, and nor do I need to, I don't need the users to be able to alter my camera, I can do it myself. Yes that's arrogant, but then I can do what they can't. They probably can do stuff I can, and I only have so my life to do anything in.

I get people would like more stable products, pay for them. And by that I mean buy an off the shelf one that works, and is supported (and cost the earth). If people want to pay for my day time verse my free time, then it would honestly be cheaper to by an off the self product, than custom code from me, that's why we standardise, to lower costs.

I love metaphors, so here's a real world meta example:
At work people grow fruit on trees at home, and then bring surplus to work and put then in the lunch room, with signs that say "help your self - name" so you can thank them. Sometime I look at the fruit and think hmmm it not really how I like the fruit (maybe too spotty skin or something like that), but the point is a walk on. If I want fruit I buy it from the shops (and I do buy a lot of fruit) but what I don't do it suggest to my work colleges that I really think they should spend more time picking bugs off their tress so the fruit looks better, because that's really how I'd need it to look before I'll eat it.

Nor to I offer $1 if to motivate then to spend 30 hours tending their trees.

Because I get it's free, and I don't have to take the fruit it I don't like it enough.

The reason my colleges bring the fruit in is so maybe it's not wasted, maybe someone will find value in it.

The coding meaning is: I can hack my camera in private just fine, but making it public I can sharing my findings with other hackers, and we can save each other time, and discover more fun stuff.

Oh and people how cannot hack might find what I've done useful. Maybe what we find will change the camera manufacturers view, on what should be in/out of the product, but nether of these are my goal.

 
- Simeon Pilgrim

[maxotics]

Simeon, I am happy you have been able to escape those Nikon fascists and speak freely here in the ML forum (JUST JOKING!).

Seriously, I was not arguing that developers should "pick the bugs off their fruit".  Only that, to continue that analogy, you may get sick of watching your co-workers start ignoring your fruit and never see people enjoy your garden as much as they could, if you put in a little bug-picking effort.  Yes, in the beginning of any hacking effort, you really can't worry about user happiness.  It should be enough that you enjoy it, and the few who share your interests.

But I believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off.  Again, no reason a developer should stop doing what they enjoy, even if only one person is following them.

I don't believe offering money for a feature is in any way disrespectful or wrong.  Devs don't have to take it up.  As Gibrain said, "Work is love made visible".  I believe the OP was expressing his love for ML in that way. 

Again, and again, and again,  It's a trade-off.  You may say you don't care if someone is following your Nikon work, let's say.  And you probably don't.  But you may care in the future, I am only pointing out that possibility--for whatever reason.

Finally, we rarely do something because we think of it out of thin air.  Most hacking is a reaction to some cool thing that CAN be done, but isn't.  Like RAW video from Canon cameras.  Where did we get that idea?  From people using Alexa and Red cameras, and such, which were borne of similar hackers with DSRL electronics.   

So hacking these cameras is partly social, though it doesn't seem like it.  Hackers may deny it, but I believe all hackers hack partly because they know it will please/impress others.  So where does the private challenge end and the social need begin?  Do we hack just enough to show it can be done, or do we hack enough so that some can use it on a professional shoot?  Or do we hack to get thanks on the forum?

No man is an island.

[engardeknave]

you may get sick of watching your co-workers start ignoring your fruit and never see people enjoy your garden as much as they could, if you put in a little bug-picking effort

Because this thread began with a developer complaining that nobody is downloading Magic Lantern.

I believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off

I believe that tits are no longer appreciated by men. Just an opinion.

[engardeknave]

You have a social need to make this thing I want.

[painya]

I believe that tits are no longer appreciated by men. Just an opinion.

I don't think there is a way to make this point more effectively. I applaud your methods.

[KurtAugust]

Simeon. Thanks for your comment. Nice to hear a developpers side. Really helps me appreciate all the effort even more. I guess professionals in every line of work rather get paid in full or do things for fun, than working for peanuts. I know I do.

As much as I like both new features and stability, for production work I rely on a build that hasn't failed me once. What's there to complain? The other option would be to buy an Arri Alexa.

[SimeonPilgrim]

Simeon, I am happy you have been able to escape those Nikon fascists and speak freely here in the ML forum (JUST JOKING!).

Thanks, all those Nikon fan-boys, so tiring... ;-)

Seriously, I was not arguing that developers should "pick the bugs off their fruit".  Only that, to continue that analogy, you may get sick of watching your co-workers start ignoring your fruit and never see people enjoy your garden as much as they could, if you put in a little bug-picking effort.  Yes, in the beginning of any hacking effort, you really can't worry about user happiness.  It should be enough that you enjoy it, and the few who share your interests.

But I believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off.  Again, no reason a developer should stop doing what they enjoy, even if only one person is following them.

I don't believe offering money for a feature is in any way disrespectful or wrong.  Devs don't have to take it up.  As Gibrain said, "Work is love made visible".  I believe the OP was expressing his love for ML in that way. 

Again, and again, and again,  It's a trade-off.  You may say you don't care if someone is following your Nikon work, let's say.  And you probably don't.  But you may care in the future, I am only pointing out that possibility--for whatever reason.

Finally, we rarely do something because we think of it out of thin air.  Most hacking is a reaction to some cool thing that CAN be done, but isn't.  Like RAW video from Canon cameras.  Where did we get that idea?  From people using Alexa and Red cameras, and such, which were borne of similar hackers with DSRL electronics.   

So hacking these cameras is partly social, though it doesn't seem like it.  Hackers may deny it, but I believe all hackers hack partly because they know it will please/impress others.  So where does the private challenge end and the social need begin?  Do we hack just enough to show it can be done, or do we hack enough so that some can use it on a professional shoot?  Or do we hack to get thanks on the forum?

No man is an island.

So true, at many levels. I have no problem with paying to fix stuff, but the here $100 bucks verse 1-2 hours of "work time", make hard problems not worth it, when really extra toy money is cool. And yes I mostly hack for the peer respect (current peers and potental future peers) and yes, people saying thank you is nice.

And your correct I'm not an island, and I've gained heaps from others that have posted stuff online. But I still am careful when I go to other projects. The nikon stuff is not my first public project, but the others have been more tech related than camera's and the people are more aware of the time cost to-do verse I'd like a double cheese burger with fires, now!

So just to make sure no direct feelings hurt, I wasn't really directly ranting at you maxotics, but by the time I got to that part I was on my moral high horse.

I believe that....

that was snort out loud funny.

[Marsu42]

My background, I'm one of the lead developers on the Nikon hacking effort, so similar to this project (no where near as advanced, ML is amazing), but this is not my community, so I feel free to speak, as a developer, without offending "my peoples"

Great to hear from you, I hope you'll have a peek around here more often - how to manage and keep together such a project doesn't depend on the camera brand, and issues like "stability vs. features", "fork or no fork" are universal to the oss world.

But I believe, just an opinion, that ML has got to the point where its "coolness" is wearing off.  Again, no reason a developer should stop doing what they enjoy, even if only one person is following them.

I'm with Simeon here: the coolness is because you can code for and modify the camera yourself just for yourself, not because you add a certain product to it like using an app for your smartphone. I find ML so great because I can make the camera do what *I* want (well, most of the times I can) which results a completely different feeling when using it.

And I know my sub-mediocre coding efforts are only possible because a couple of very clever people with a lot of time have laid the foundation for it, because of this fact alone taking money for myself and not the project or EFF for coding would feel a little awkward, but that's of course just my personal view.

Concerning the enthusiasm and motivation my guess Alex (I'm keen on his opinion once he's back) feels the same like Simeon, he's really enthusiastic about what he's doing and is on vacation right now using his own creation. I have to applaud him to invest so much time into things that he doesn't really use himself because he cares for ML as a whole. Originally I thought all core devs would get some kind of money out of this, but I seem to be wrong, it's a different motivation. Of course it falls apart when writing docs because that's outright boring.

So hacking these cameras is partly social, though it doesn't seem like it.  Hackers may deny it, but I believe all hackers hack partly because they know it will please/impress others.  So where does the private challenge end and the social need begin?  Do we hack just enough to show it can be done, or do we hack enough so that some can use it on a professional shoot?  Or do we hack to get thanks on the forum? No man is an island.

Again, working on the auto_iso module I can understand Simeon - I don't mind people using it, and I feel somewhat obliged to share it because I got help from the community, and of course it's nice to get thanks and see that other people are happy using it - but basically I couldn't care less (sorry, no offense :-)), because I do it for *me* and this is where the motivation comes from. A happy smile appears on my face whenever I look at a shot I couldn't have taken without what I coded, that's the real reward.

Getting paid token money endangers this motivation, because then you're underpaid and ask yourself if packing groceries wouldn't be a better job, but I guess everyone who shoots part commercial and for fun knows this problem. A "bug bounty" like for the bootflag issue few devs really seem to care about might be an incentive, either as a donation to the EFF or maybe someone buys Alex a flash :-> so he cannot argue anymore he doesn't know anything about it. However, I would really not like to see a $$$ badge attached to every feature request from now on.

[engardeknave]

To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with offering money to fix problems. If it becomes a trend, then just make a pay-for-code forum section. Easy. But all of this nonsense about why ML needs to be polished and improved beyond whatever the people working on it are interested in doing is nothing but a collection of silly rationalizations from people who want more and can't do it themselves.

I mean, I understand this. ML makes me feel like a child sometimes with how badly I want this or that new functionality. It's almost like getting new gear for free. (And it's sad because nobody cares about the weird features I want.) But to try and pass off my own mad craving for new goodies as some sort of duty that others must serve is horrible, no matter how obsequious the praise or how much money is offered.

[chris_overseas]

As a developer myself (though not yet on ML) I think SimeonPilgrim has summed it up best. Developers get involved in projects like this because it is interesting, useful and fun for them - it's rewarding. It's an ESCAPE from their day job, not an extension of it. So while offering financial rewards for features isn't a bad thing, don't expect it to have much impact. Money is not what developers are going to be here for. Any decent developer likely has or can get a well paid job anyway so a little extra cash isn't going to be much of a motivating factor for them. (Personally I find it a bit awkward and off-putting to be offered money for something like this but maybe that's just me - I still don't think there's anything wrong with the offer).

With regards to setting up committees, adding processes, setting milestones, timelines and so on... well remember I said this is an escape from a day job for many devs? What part of their day job do you think they are escaping from?   Having said that most developers realise some of the above is a necessary evil and will generally introduce enough structure to get by. The developers who're most involved in the project need to drive this though; users badgering for it will if anything put developers off being here (again, because it becomes more like work than play). ML actually seems to be doing pretty well with a lot of the infrastructure anyway - strong code review process, quality forums, nightly builds/continuous integration, website, wiki, ...  Not perfect yet but better than a lot of other OS projects I've seen. The rest will likely come with time as the project continues to grow.

Some interesting and valid points from maxotics too on the social aspect of a project like this. I agree with a lot of that too, though I suspect the social aspects still boil down to receiving an emotional "reward", much the same as writing the code does in the first place.

TL;DR - By all means offer cash but don't be surprised if it doesn't have the effect you expected.

[g3gg0]

So true, at many levels. I have no problem with paying to fix stuff, but the here $100 bucks verse 1-2 hours of "work time", make hard problems not worth it, when really extra toy money is cool. And yes I mostly hack for the peer respect (current peers and potental future peers) and yes, people saying thank you is nice.

/sign

[maxotics]

To be clear, I don't think there's anything wrong with offering money to fix problems. If it becomes a trend, then just make a pay-for-code forum section. Easy. But all of this nonsense about why ML needs to be polished and improved beyond whatever the people working on it are interested in doing is nothing but a collection of silly rationalizations from people who want more and can't do it themselves.

Film-making is the most team-oriented artistic endeavor.  Of the 100s of people you see listed on a film's credits, which ones are the ones with "silly rationalizations" of what they need, to better accomplish their goals?  Again, it's fine if the dev is only interested in saying doing an ETTR shot of a fire hydrant outside his door, but many people who come to ML have plans that require ML to fit into a team effort.  And, as anyone who has worked on a film-set, of any kind, will tell you, reliability is the most important quality you can have.  You can be the most genius writer, director, actor, grip, etc, but if someone forgets to charge the batteries because they were working on some new feature they thought would be useful that day you'll say, 'hey, no problem'? 

I feel, there is a bit too much dev "hero-worship" on these forums.  As someone who has done a lot of development I can tell you, at least for me, I was born with it.  There's a photo of me taking apart all the tea-bags in the house when I was barely 4.  I took apart everything.  And still do.  And for a while, like many of you, I thought other people were just lazy.  But after the experiences of showing up to a place where someone has forgotten the batteries say, I REALLY appreciate that person who can't program but can remember, and organize, 100, to me, excruciatingly boring details.  Though it has slowed me down working with such people, and is frustrating, the end work was 100x better.   

The OP who posted for the fix to the camera.  What do we know about him?  Perhaps all he thinks about is money and he wants to maximize the value of his camera.  Or maybe he is a technical dolt but has studied painting, and painted, for 12 hours a day and has a genius eye for composition.  He may one day shoot the next Citizen Kane.  Will it be on ML though?

To me, and just my opinion, everyone who posts or does anything helpful is on the SAME level as the devs.  Again, no matter how cool a feature one of the devs may get working, if I couldn't have done it without some person's tutorial who is the one who really got me there? 

What I have tried to do in these posts is explain why I am moving way from ML, and why I think others have/are doing the same.  Experiments are fun by yourself, but as soon as you start to work with others, certain things don't fly.  I wish they did.  I really do.  But experience teaches an unforgiving lesson.

Again and again again.  I can only describe my experience and thinking.  Everyone should do what they want with their free time.  If the devs and most users enjoy things the way they are, then by all means, rock on!  When I have free time and it's for fun, I'm here!

[SimeonPilgrim]

Film-making is the most team-oriented artistic endeavor.  <snip>  If the devs and most users enjoy things the way they are, then by all means, rock on!  When I have free time and it's for fun, I'm here!

I full understand your background needs and perspective. I get that ML could also fit into your workflow if it just X, and that (guessing) it is so close, but no there.

I also agree anybody that contributes, is a equal contributor. At work we use the Belbin profiles system, and their are completer finishers, and team players, and there are team coordinators, all of which I am not, and I'm guess the core dev's are not ether. To get a big task done need teams that are balanced.

Film making, like game coding, sounds fun, I bet there is crazy competition to get the job done (and for cheap).

[Marsu42]

I also agree anybody that contributes, is a equal contributor.

I guess we can instantly all agree on that since I have never felt any persistent hierarchy from anyone working for ML, every level and type of contribution is very welcome - coding, testing, ideas, writing.

However, with the insight of having coded some modules and patches I have to acknowledge it's probably only 2-3 currently active people who have the knowledge and time to get the difficult tasks done while the rest builds upon these efforts. For that simple reason, I'd be extra observant to what their vision is (and this includes the (non)commercial character) because what they achieve cannot be (re)paid in money, and if they loose interest or motivation the whole project is stalled.