Author Topic: Working space in After Effects  (Read 29568 times)

ilia

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Working space in After Effects
« on: August 17, 2013, 04:32:11 PM »
When setting up my project for 5d3 Raw I choose 32bpc and the working space is set to none. Should I change that to one of the other options?(Adobe RGB, Apple RGB, sRGB etc...)  I'm on a Mac using AE CC, rendering out to ProRes 4444 for FCPX.  Thanks.

reddeercity

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2013, 07:32:07 AM »
When setting up my project for 5d3 Raw I choose 32bpc and the working space is set to none. Should I change that to one of the other options?(Adobe RGB, Apple RGB, sRGB etc...)  I'm on a Mac using AE CC, rendering out to ProRes 4444 for FCPX.  Thanks.

No, keep it as none.
i have the same exact work flow, but i use a 5D2.
 :)
 

eyeland

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2013, 08:45:05 AM »
Are you able to see a difference between 16 and 32?
Daybreak broke me loose and brought me back...

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2013, 06:04:49 PM »
ilia, if you're going to prores then rec709 work space would do, no point going to wider gamut or specifying 'none', undefined primaries the second option I'd consider more dangerous.

You could choose a wider gamut workspace if you wanted and were doing any substantial color processing in camera raw because you're source is higher bit depth than 8bit, wider gamuts are suitable.

@eyeland, Difference between 32bit and 16bit visually you're not going to tell as you're viewing sRGB / rec709 0.0 - 1.0 anyway, the 32bit benefit is hidden, ie: greater precision, no clamping / clipping to 0.0 - 1.0 display space if you push shadows and highlights (of coarse you need to pull them back in to 0 - 1, but nothing is lost going over or under whilst grading), linear domain operations IF you're scaling, sharpening or blending.  More control over shadows and highlights at 32bit with AE.


ilia

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2013, 09:31:01 PM »
Isn't rec709 for HDTV?  What color space is used if none is chosen?

reddeercity

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2013, 10:44:48 PM »
Isn't rec709 for HDTV?  What color space is used if none is chosen?

Yes you are right !

I think "none" is your native color space in your Raw file.
I do the bulk of my WB, Color Correction with raw in Photoshop export as tiff 16bit (bake my Look)

i use the RGB wave monitor to clamp it down close to Rec 709(16-235)
I use as my main computer monitor , 32 inch LCD HDTV Sony Bravia Color Calibrated to Full Range
Rec 709 (0-255). So my color space is all ready in hd Color space.

And as i understand the color space Options ( i'm new at this with AE, I come from Autodesk Smoke)
you have 2 color space option to deal with.
That your input color space (DNG's/TIFF's) aka: working color space
and the output  monitoring Color space ( if just using main computer monitor or output Via
Capture Card to Grading monitor). Export Prores4444 32 bit Float.

i have a AJA Kona Lhi in MacPro to Panasonic Plasma THX Calibrated to Full Range RGB (0-255).
I have found if i change color spaces , my working  space & monitoring space do not match
but that in my Case only, so i guess it depends on your monitoring Equipment.
 :)
 

 

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2013, 11:33:53 PM »
Isn't rec709 for HDTV?  What color space is used if none is chosen?

rec709 is for YCbCr video formats including Prores and general imaging. If you're encoding to Prores 4:4:4 'YUV' or h264 or mpeg4 then it's rec709 primaries and transfer, color matrix may vary depending on resolution. If you're encoding to some RGB variant then it's rec709 primaries, transfer and probably 601 color matrix. Gamma curve and white points to suit rec709 video space or rec709 sRGB if image's or image sequences.

Work space color space is generally about what width of gamut your source file is opened into.

If you're opening an 8bit h264 video file into AE then rec709 or sRGB in the case of Canon / Nikon's / GH3 (MOV) JFIF video is the 'best' workspace 'gamut' for those files any wider and it'll almost certainly lead to color and gradation issues including banding.

As you're using raw then it has no 'colorspace', it's sensor data, that's how come you can set sRGB or AdobeRGB in camera or 'transform' from camera raw space 'open' 'wild' gamut to an intermediate space like XYZ and then to a device referenced output space and specification like sRGB or rec709 (16-235/240) or JFIF for video

But as said if you are going 'straight' to Prores with little color processing in ACR via AE then there's little point transforming from Canon camera space to anything wider than rec709.

Leaving it 'open' ie: camera space could lead to problems with translation of color gamut later when in FCPx, the whole point of color management and 32bit float processing is to make use of it. :-)

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2013, 11:36:43 PM »
Yes you are right !

I think "none" is your native color space in your Raw file.

Camera space, there's no real defined color space in raw. You transform Camera Space -> Intermediate Space -> Device Output Space. There's no doubt some design decisions made at sensor that make the output spaces limited to specific ones like sRGB and AdobeRGB.

Quote
I do the bulk of my WB, Color Correction with raw in Photoshop export as tiff 16bit (bake my Look)

i use the RGB wave monitor to clamp it down close to Rec 709(16-235)
I use as my main computer monitor , 32 inch LCD HDTV Sony Bravia Color Calibrated to Full Range
Rec 709 (0-255). So my color space is all ready in hd Color space.

'Full Range' RGB what's that? 0 - 255 8bit range, it makes no sense, YCbCr is described as being 'full range' at times ie: 0 - 255 or 1 - 254 in the case of xvYCC but that doesn't fit into 8bit RGB 0 - 255, or into 16bit Integer, so 32bit float RGB is required to hold and retain 'invalid' RGB values below 0.0 and greater than 1.0. There's none of those in Canon camera raw as it's not HDR but 'invalid' values can be generated in color manipulation.

Quote
And as i understand the color space Options ( i'm new at this with AE, I come from Autodesk Smoke)
you have 2 color space option to deal with.
That your input color space (DNG's/TIFF's) aka: working color space
and the output  monitoring Color space ( if just using main computer monitor or output Via
Capture Card to Grading monitor). Export Prores4444 32 bit Float.

i have a AJA Kona Lhi in MacPro to Panasonic Plasma THX Calibrated to Full Range RGB (0-255).
I have found if i change color spaces , my working  space & monitoring space do not match
but that in my Case only, so i guess it depends on your monitoring Equipment.
 :)

Working space is not 'input' space, you tell your software what the source clips input space is ie: Interpret As, and you may have source files from various cameras, you set an overall working space to suit your output generally for the reasons above and here: http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-spaces.htm & http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/color-space-conversion.htm & http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/sRGB-AdobeRGB1998.htm, preview in sRGB generally unless you have wider choice of monitoring, using a color calibrated display device and if necessary use a view lut or ICC profile depending on what your color managed software uses under the hood to transform for viewing from wider working space to sRGB monitor space.

That's the whole point of color management in grading / editing / image processing software, to do all the transformations by lut or ICC from input through working and to output space.

reddeercity

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2013, 03:11:12 AM »
Yes every thing you said is True :)
But For most of use , we don't need that level of complexity.
We are not working in P3 color space or Film Scan .
We are in Rec 709,
I Grade in 10 YCbCr  0-255  color Space By the way.
In Adobe After Effect and Final Cut Pro X :D
 

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2013, 07:41:15 AM »
There's nothing complex about it, the apps color management does it for us and the OP specifically asks what working space?

Setting working space to none is in effect switching color management off for the input source and just taking the camera raw generated RGB values through as is and encode out to rec709, fine. But I'd rather use CM and define the working space.

re full range YCbCr, yes and so do I when my intermediate files are YCbCr and scale at last op to proper rec709 levels at final encode as I'm sure you do. But if grading RGB intermediates I'll set a wider color space as working as many do for raw image development.

If you set none and if the app defaults to rec709 or sRGB as a result and do any color adjustments in ACR the gamut is being  restricted to rec709 even though you have the benefit of highr bit depth to support wider gamuts for color adjustments.

But if the OP is going straight to Prores with only the necessary black level, highlights and white balance then setting rec709 working space is enough, so seems little point running unnecesary risks by setting to 'none' and possibly getting color and tonal response mangled camera raw assumed as rec709 or sRGB going on.

BrotherD

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2013, 06:39:38 PM »
Y3llow just to be clear, my T2i raw workflow is ACR (AE) 32bpc, render DN x HD 444 10bit for CC and render in Resolve. Which color space "should" I or would you use? 

Thanks,

Derrick

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2013, 07:18:03 PM »
For me if going to resolve to grade it would be rec709 with a 'flat' or log type curve. But really just do your own tests to suit you and the way you work.

BrotherD

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2013, 09:25:04 PM »
y3llow I use DL Watson's Flatz 2.3 preset. I know some like to learn everything they can about everything by reading and testing everything. Not I. I tend to learn from others with more experience. You have added to our workflows which saves time and we can work with a little more confidence.

Thanks!

Derrick

reddeercity

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2013, 10:23:16 PM »
There's nothing complex about it, the apps color management does it for us and the OP specifically asks what working space?

Setting working space to none is in effect switching color management off for the input source and just taking the camera raw generated RGB values through as is and encode out to rec709, fine. But I'd rather use CM and define the working space.

re full range YCbCr, yes and so do I when my intermediate files are YCbCr and scale at last op to proper rec709 levels at final encode as I'm sure you do. But if grading RGB intermediates I'll set a wider color space as working as many do for raw image development.

If you set none and if the app defaults to rec709 or sRGB as a result and do any color adjustments in ACR the gamut is being  restricted to rec709 even though you have the benefit of highr bit depth to support wider gamuts for color adjustments.

But if the OP is going straight to Prores with only the necessary black level, highlights and white balance then setting rec709 working space is enough, so seems little point running unnecesary risks by setting to 'none' and possibly getting color and tonal response mangled camera raw assumed as rec709 or sRGB going on.

I See your Point!
I reason i was doing this is, i was trying out the "panavision genesis tungsten log (adobe)"
Lut/icc profile in A.E. for a documentary i was working on, About a Street Artist.
When raw first came out, i like the look so i kept it and apply it to All my Raw & h264.
the only way i could export what i saw was to use "none"
I guess i'll have to explore the color space option again   :)


ilia

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2013, 03:48:56 PM »
After choosing rec709, should I also go with linear working space?

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 04:17:46 PM »
It doesn't really matter for exporting to DNxHD but any upsampling, uprezzing, sharpening or blending would technically benefit. raws are linear.

ilia

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2013, 04:04:07 PM »
Since my iMac does not support rec709, and is set to sRGB, shouldn't I just go with sRGB as the After Effects working space? This would make sure that the images match. Also, if going with rec709 or sRGB, doesn't this make my Raw 14bit only 8bit, even though I'm rendering out to ProRes 4444 12bit.  I guess all I would like to know is what settings to use to get the absolute highest quality out of AE for color grading the ProRes 4444.  Thanks in advance.

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2013, 05:01:58 PM »
Hi, sRGB imac will be display characteristics, basically a slightly different gamma curve at the base affecting the shadows area compared to rec709. sRGB and rec709 share same color primaries that define 'width' of gamut in the wider scheme of things.

Working space is to do with exactly that, the space in terms of gamut defined by the choice of color space, to manipulate your color values within, wide enough to generally avoid clipping gamut unnecessarily leading to such things as potential anomalies in final image 'quality.'

A wider gamut working space is more of a possibility when working with source files of greater bit depth than 8bit. But decision whether to bother also depends on final delivery ie: rec709 video.

The principle of color management in the case of apps like AE is that you define or in AE terms 'interpret as' your source files color space ie: rec709 for video, sRGB for images or camera raw spaces, set a working space gamut as wide as or a little wider than input sources or in the case of raw where color space is undefined and at greater than 8bit a choice of work space based on widest gamut output you intend going to, in your case rec709 in DNxHD.

Then depending on the width of the gamut of your work space you preview either as rec709 if viewing through a HDTV for example or sRGB monitors depending on your display device disregarding projectors and AE will do the necessary transform and dither from wider working space gamut and bit depth to display space so you see what you'll get in your 8 or 10bit video encode or close to it depending on a host of other factors concerning playback, codecs and the calibration minefield.

Regarding bit depth rec709 doesn't mean 8bit, the two are not related, yes rec709 defined video can be 8bit or 10 or 16bit in YCbCr.

If you encode raw 14bit into 16bit then you have 16bit levels range, whether that's necessary or depending on the source files bit depth worthwhile considering storage cost is another thing. 14bit raw precision into linear RGB minus noise floor setting black level around 4000 to 5000 and sensor saturation of first channel with the other channels scaled accordingly ie: RGB multipliers to get your WB right, will undoubtedly mean not even 14bits worth of levels. Black level (5000) will be set to 0 in 16bit and sensor saturated channel say approx 13584 for a 550D, scaled to 65535 in 16bit.

8bit from raw is not enough really for intermediate storage ie: DNxHD Prores etc, 10bit log probably would be, 16bit linear or gamma encoded more than enough.

ilia

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2013, 05:24:01 PM »
So rendering out ProRes 4444 from the 14bit Raw files will be 12bit and display 8bit sRGB on monitor?

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2013, 05:34:08 PM »
Does Prores support 12bit, sorry I only know of 8 and 10bit. But yes, the higher bit depth intermediate gives you better grading advantages, ie: better gradations but when you either encode to 8bit or playback 10 or 12bit intermediates it gets the levels scaled into the lower bit depth and the result dithered to suit your display, which in most cases is either 6 or 8bit.

ilia

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2013, 07:07:25 PM »
So what advantages does rec709 have over sRGB?

ilia

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2013, 07:39:57 PM »
Does Prores support 12bit, sorry I only know of 8 and 10bit.

from Apple white papers:
ProRes 4444:
The Apple
ProRes 4444 codec preserves motion image sequences
originating in either 4:4:4 RGB or 4:4:4 Y’CBCR
color spaces. With a remarkably low data
rate (as compared to uncompressed 4:4:4 HD), Apple
ProRes 4444 supports 12-bit pixel
depth with an optional, mathematically lossless alpha channel for true 4:4:4:4 support.
Apple ProRes 4444 preserves visual quality at the same high level as Apple
ProRes 422
(HQ), but for 4:4:4 image sources, which can carry the highest possible color detail.

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2013, 07:49:34 PM »
Very little. :-)

sRGB is derived from the rec709 specification and is described as 'display referred' that is the output is targeted at sRGB monitors, mobile devices for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SRGB

rec709  is described as 'scene referred' that is it's not targeted at a specific device but for all intents it is really, a HDTV for example. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rec._709

When we typically work on and view images & graphics it's generally assumed that to view 'correctly' they will be to sRGB. When we encode and view video's even if from sRGB imagery they are 'expected' to be rec709 specification. If we view rec709 video on an sRGB monitor it's expected that the rec709 to sRGB adjustment is done for us.

As an aside, there are other variants that use rec709 primaries which offer wider color gamut such as xvYCC (xvcolor) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XvYCC and scRGB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ScRGB just for completeness.

deleted.account

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2013, 07:53:21 PM »
from Apple white papers:
ProRes 4444:
The Apple
ProRes 4444 codec preserves motion image sequences
originating in either 4:4:4 RGB or 4:4:4 Y’CBCR
color spaces. With a remarkably low data
rate (as compared to uncompressed 4:4:4 HD), Apple
ProRes 4444 supports 12-bit pixel
depth with an optional, mathematically lossless alpha channel for true 4:4:4:4 support.
Apple ProRes 4444 preserves visual quality at the same high level as Apple
ProRes 422
(HQ), but for 4:4:4 image sources, which can carry the highest possible color detail.

I see, 12bit is for imagery + alpha, 10bit + alpha. But as the raw has no alpha then encoding to 12bit 4:4:4:4 seems a little pointless.

reddeercity

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Re: Working space in After Effects
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2013, 09:40:05 PM »
ProRes 4444 is in bit depth 16bit
i have not seen any 12 bit ProRes 4444 files.
Normaly all ProRes4444 is 16bit & ProRes 422HQ is 10Bit
It you Check your ProRes4444 is Resolve  or A.E. they are always show 16bit.
And from what i under stand about the DNxHD 444 is 10bit, from Resolve.
 :)