Author Topic: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)  (Read 23663 times)

oferlevy

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Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« on: August 03, 2013, 03:29:53 PM »
Hi all,
I would love to hear some input from people who tried both cameras - I love the 5D3 and the beautiful RAW it delivers. Never tried the BMCC. Is the image quality from the 5D3 RAW better/equal to the BMCC RAW ? Dynamic range? Low light performance? Any other important differences between the two that will make me buy/not buy the BMCC? I am only doing wildlife filmmaking with telephoto lenses from 70mm - 800mm.
Thanks,
Ofer

eatstoomuchjam

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2013, 04:46:40 PM »
Hi all,
I would love to hear some input from people who tried both cameras - I love the 5D3 and the beautiful RAW it delivers. Never tried the BMCC. Is the image quality from the 5D3 RAW better/equal to the BMCC RAW ? Dynamic range? Low light performance? Any other important differences between the two that will make me buy/not buy the BMCC? I am only doing wildlife filmmaking with telephoto lenses from 70mm - 800mm.
Thanks,
Ofer

I haven't used both, but the fact that they just dropped the price on the BMCC by $1,000 may make it an attractive option for you.

noisyboy

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2013, 05:08:21 PM »
Hi all,
I would love to hear some input from people who tried both cameras - I love the 5D3 and the beautiful RAW it delivers. Never tried the BMCC. Is the image quality from the 5D3 RAW better/equal to the BMCC RAW ? Dynamic range? Low light performance? Any other important differences between the two that will make me buy/not buy the BMCC? I am only doing wildlife filmmaking with telephoto lenses from 70mm - 800mm.
Thanks,
Ofer

Just put an order in for a BMCC myself after the price drop but one thing I will say about the 5DIII is that a) you have Magic Lantern to go with it ;) b) the full frame and low light performance of the mkIII absolutely smash the BMCC out of the water if that is something you are concerned about and c) if you EVER want to take stills with your BMCC you are pretty much stuffed.

The reason I bought one is just because it shoots prores 4.2.2 and it's shooting raw straight out of the box with less hassle and also the footage goes straight into resolve without weird debayering issues. Oh and playback in camera is a must for me really.

Either one is a bit of a beast but really you could shoot the exact same film on both of these cameras if you put your mind to it. Just different tools for the job  8)

Ps. If you are doing wildlife then you could greatly benefit from the huge crop of the sensor on the BMCC as your 800mm would become like a 1920mm or something :)
Lynne, some of these people have come from Stoke!

mageye

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2013, 05:29:13 PM »
Purely from an ergonomical perspective...

I believe that the BMCC is designed more for a 'rig'. It starts to make sense when you have it in a rig and to that end is aimed at the pro (or semi pro/independent) digital film market.

I have not used the BMCC but it doesn't look to easy to hold. Also one of the criticisms of this camera is that it's pretty heavy causing fatigue when hand held for more than a few minutes.

I know that with wildlife filming you will unlikely be doing any hand held stuff but from a general ergonomics stand point I think the 5DMK3 would be much more robust and generally appropriate for wildlife stuff.

As a final point I would like to stress that I believe that the BMCC is a damn good camera (from the technical specs anyway). I am not trying to say that one is better than the other. I am merely suggesting which one I feel would be better suited to the specific task. It's just my opinion after all.
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Doyle4

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2013, 05:59:35 PM »
Canon 5Dmkiii shoots 14-bit RAW - BMPCC shoot's 12-bit

Another bit of info there :)

dopepope

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2013, 10:03:27 PM »
I think it really depends on what you plan to use the cameras for.
I've shot on both, and they both deliver great images.
The BMCC image right out the gate looks just like the 16mm I used to shoot in school. It's a very pretty image.
The crop sensor kills it for me. After having shot on super 35 (epic/red) and 35 (5D/Film) having to have special wide lenses isn't my favorite.
It is a heavy camera, but not much more than the Epic, and definitely less than the Red One (just shot red one handheld on a month long shoot).
Post workflow will be better/easier with the BMCC, plus you get davinci resolve for free!
Usable latitude/low light right now I think are better on the 5D.
Peripherals to make the BMCC a proper cinema camera will end up costing you a couple thousand on top of the BMCC (V mount batteries, matte box, rods, follow focus, etc).
Peripherals for the 5D will be a little less, but not much if you want to purchase high-end equipment.
5D takes amazing stills, BMCC not quite so nice.
Media for the BMCC is surprisingly cheaper, as with the 5D you'll need 1000x cards to match the BMCC resolution, and those are more expensive than the SSD counterparts.
BMCC has no in camera format option for the media (at least it didnt when I used it) that was a major PITA for me.

If strict image quality is what you're after, I'd have to say the 5D. If ease of use or cost or anything else come into play... it depends on what is most important to you.

kgv5

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2013, 10:16:02 PM »

Ps. If you are doing wildlife then you could greatly benefit from the huge crop of the sensor on the BMCC as your 800mm would become like a 1920mm or something :)


With 5d3 you can have  both 3x crop and ultra wide angle.
BMCC becomes much more affordable right now. Besides of what people said earlier the are even more things to consider:
BMCC is much heavier so its harder to use it with glidecam (i use it a lot) or similar handheld devices.
on 5D3 you can have now continous 2,5K (2,39:1)
on 5D3 you can choose smaller raw resolutions to save the card space and still have 14bit raw
on 5D3 you can have 50/60p, with the new builds with quite good resolution
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vikado

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2013, 10:29:07 PM »
sensor wont be a problem if you get a metabones speed booster.
the nikon to m4/3 speedbooster is already out,
and the the ef to m/43 is suspposedly coming out this month.
crop factor becomes closer to an asp-c.
plus you get added benefit of gaining 1-stop of exposure.

just thinking of getting a bmcc for $2k, im biting my lip at the thought,
but if i do get a BMD camera, i think i'll wait what the 4k can accomplish.
for now, im sticking to the mark 3.

also, for $2k, you get the camera and Resolve.
that alone is a steal.

on 5D3 you can have now continous 2,5K (2,39:1)
oh really?
cropped? or 1:1?
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mageye

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2013, 10:45:01 PM »
Anyway I just remembered the Blackmagic Cinema Camera has had a huge backlog on orders.

I just happend to bump into my old college lecturer (audio/visual design) in the supermarket. I hadn't seen him in years. Anyway we got chatting and I got talking about the Magic Lantern stuff. He seemed interested to hear it all. Plus I was quite enthusiastic to talk about it. I mentioned Blackmagic (just to see how up to date he was with things) and he said:

"yeah we've got one ordered"

and I said:

"oh really? that's really good to hear"

After that he said:

" ... and you know what?" (referring to the Blackmagic)

And I replied "yes, I think I do ..."

He said "go on... "

I said:

"(You ordered it and) ... You haven't got it yet."

He said:

"YES! We have been waiting since November 2012 and we still haven't got it YET!" (this was last month)

"we are still not sure when we are going to get to see it?!"

I knew that. Not because I am a mind reader; but because I had read lots of people complaining about that. (especially people here in the UK).

So it's OK making a decision that you are going to be buying the BMCC; but when you actually get it in your hands is a whole different matter.

I hope that Blackmagic sort that part out. I too was considering the BPCC (or however it was abbreviated) but the waiting list thing is really discouraging. Even the cheaper BPCC is still a lot of money to be paying out for something that you may or may not see within an unknown amount of time.
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dopepope

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2013, 11:00:41 PM »
sensor wont be a problem if you get a metabones speed booster.
the nikon to m4/3 speedbooster is already out,
and the the ef to m/43 is suspposedly coming out this month.
crop factor becomes closer to an asp-c.
plus you get added benefit of gaining 1-stop of exposure.

just thinking of getting a bmcc for $2k, im biting my lip at the thought,
but if i do get a BMD camera, i think i'll wait what the 4k can accomplish.
for now, im sticking to the mark 3.

also, for $2k, you get the camera and Resolve.
that alone is a steal.
oh really?
cropped? or 1:1?

I hadn't thought about the speedbooster, and while thats cool and certainly would help out some drawbacks from the BMCC, thats still an additional 4-500 bucks. Which really is a drop in the bucket when it comes to professional camera costs.
I think I'd be with you though, and just wait for the 4K. Even with one less stop of latitude, I think it'd be much more viable than the 2.5k

kgv5

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2013, 11:07:27 PM »
oh really?
cropped? or 1:1?

Tested with the newest build with card spanning (simultaneously writing to both CF and SD). Its with 3x zoom so i believe 1:1. And it is not 16:9 but 2,39:1 for now.
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Midphase

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2013, 11:44:21 PM »
I recently did a shootout test with the BMCC vs. 5D3 raw with some Zeiss lenses in a controlled environment.

I found the BMCC footage to look kinda crappy compared to what I got out of the 5D3, which really surprised me actually. The 5D3 seems to be able to handle highlights better than the BMCC, if you clip them, they look far worse on the BMCC. I also found the BMCC so be somewhat softer than the 5D3 in fine detail (stray hair, fabric, etc). The BMCC also showed pretty bad moire and the rolling shutter seemed worse. Adding to all of that, the severe restriction on lenses that a cropped sensor will give you, the lack of a replaceable battery and a not superfriendly form-factor wouldn't seem to bode well for the BMCC.

Having said that, the BMCC is superior in a few things. First of all it's production ready, meaning that you can easily playback on set, it records audio, and not being a hacked device it is inherently more stable (even if most of that is psychological). You can interface with external gear easily, send a signal to video village without any problems, and I find the SSD an overall more robust and...frankly cheaper storage solution than CF cards.

So even though I own a 5D3, and I love the way the footage looks, I'm also leaning towards picking up a BMCC. I think it would not only serve quite well as a 2nd camera, but also provide an extra bit of safety on a shoot.

EOSHD

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2013, 11:44:49 PM »
I prefer the 5D Mark III raw.

The BMCC is a heavy camera, not as portable. The screen is large and reasonably detailed but has extremely dull saturation. There's a audible fan noise where the 5D is silent. It doesn't have an HDMI output, so you need to get a more expensive monitor with HD-SDI or a breakout box and add it to your rig. It needs an external battery, which is an additional cost and an additional weight. The rolling shutter is worse than the 5D Mark III and the image I find often has wavey rolling noise in low light in the shadows. The 5D Mark III has a larger sensor so suits my EF glass more. mFT mount BMCC is better suited to the small sensor but it is a passive mount - no Lumix lenses, no Olympus glass, just adapters to all the SLR lenses apart from Canon (no aperture control) and passive mFT lenses.

The image in decent light and with fast glass at night is lovely and it is very detailed, but the 5D Mark III has better saturation and less noise at high ISOs, smoother fine detail with less moire and not the kind of false speckles of detail on fine textures that you will find on the BMCC.

The BMCC does have some advantages however -

- SSD media is large, fast and practical
- A bit more latitude and a better handling of highlights
- Price, it is now cheaper but is it? Don't forget to add the battery, SSDs, rigs, etc. It is still a great deal for what it is though.
- Copy of Resolve. I've found this software invaluable. It's great for editing and grading Cinema DNG
- Possibility of compressed raw with firmware update (5D Mark III not powerful enough to do this)
- ProRes straight off the camera
- Very straight forward controls
- Much longer continuous record times in ProRes or raw on 512MB SSDs

oferlevy

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2013, 12:51:47 AM »
Hi guys,
Thank you for the fantastic input!
From what I have heard so far I think I will get the BMCC as a second camera because of a few reasons:
1. The crop factor is a big deal for my needs as I need as much reach as possible.
2. I can shoot much longer with the BMCC for much less money and I don't like to waste thousands on CF cards.
3. BMCC offer an amazing price considering the added software which I can use for the 5D3.
4. It's my understanding the image quality of the BMCC is not hugely inferiour to the 5D3 so they should be able to cut together??
5. I am only going to shoot from a tripod so don't need much rig.

Thanks again,
Cheers,
Ofer

EOSHD

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2013, 01:40:03 AM »
Cutting together raw from different cameras is quite difficult if you're grading by eye. Best to convert them both to LOG then add a LUT.

vikado

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2013, 02:26:09 AM »
Tested with the newest build with card spanning (simultaneously writing to both CF and SD). Its with 3x zoom so i believe 1:1. And it is not 16:9 but 2,39:1 for now.
i read somewhere shooting above 2k is possible without zooming in.
wonder if this is true.
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aaphotog

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2013, 02:30:13 AM »
i read somewhere shooting above 2k is possible without zooming in.
wonder if this is true.
Proof of this claim?

vikado

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2013, 03:36:46 AM »
Just read it somewhere here that the option to record higher has been disabled.
Could simply be my mistake.
Crosses fingers
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noisyboy

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2013, 04:29:00 AM »
Anyway I just remembered the Blackmagic Cinema Camera has had a huge backlog on orders.


Hmmm... Ordered mine yesterday in the UK from a UK supplier and they had both MFT and EF models. All the authorized sellers on BMD's website have them in. Mine arrives on Tuesday :)
Lynne, some of these people have come from Stoke!

mageye

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2013, 04:53:55 AM »
@noisyboy

Well I was talking about a real person who had ordered it in for a local college and I did the research myself there was a big waiting list. When I looked into buying the BPCC I emailed lots of suppliers and most of the UK dealers had a waiting list (and they couldn't give me any idea of when I might see it if I did order it). I decided in the end the wait was going to be too long.

So finally you can get hold of a BMCC in UK and you don't have to wait so long. I would say well done. Any chance you can give us the supplier?

EDIT: I looked into it and was indeed surprised to see that Blackmagic (appear) to have cleaned up thier act. I checked out the UK dealers and it appears they do have some ready for shipping. It wasn't so long ago that I was reading lots of bad press about the BMCC.

There is an article here about some of problems they have faced:

http://nofilmschool.com/2012/09/blackmagic-cinema-camera-delay-explained/

and then an article (more recently) with more optimistic news.

http://nofilmschool.com/2013/06/blackmagic-cinema-camera-ef-mft-stock-price-cost-availability/
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Audionut

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2013, 04:56:29 AM »
Ps. If you are doing wildlife then you could greatly benefit from the huge crop of the sensor on the BMCC as your 800mm would become like a 1920mm or something :)

Crop mode in ML will give you 3x, so 2400mm.  With the option of original zoom length without changing lenses ;)

Once the file format is formalized, expect to see a lot of progress in ease of use.

johansugarev

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2013, 06:31:25 AM »
I have tried the BMCC and it's great, five years ago who would have dreamed of such a camera? The reason I stick to Canon DSLRs because I believe they are the future of digital filmmaking - that is mainly thanks to the ML team. With the expensive cameras like the RED and Arri you have to rent, but for the money you could have two or three 5Dmk3's and shoot stunning video.
Five months ago, who would compare these cameras? Who knows what could be possible with the next camera.
I would worry a lot more about getting the right lens.

spearfrenzy

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2013, 06:42:26 PM »
I have used them both for exactly what you are attempting. I shoot wildlife documentaries. I bought the bmcc for the crop sensor primarily and of course the 2.5k raw was a nice perk. After using it for a few days I realized its quite different. I had been using DSLRs for a few years prior. The camera is awkward to use and the added things like batteries make it even heavier and more awkward. The image quality was really nice and the 2.3 crop was really awesome for wildlife though. Low light was average at best. I felt like it was pretty close to a 7D and not as good as the 5d2 which is what I had at the time. Im now using 5d3's and filming raw because of the Magic Lantern Hack. The 3x crop mode holds up extremely well and looks just as good as the full frame stuff. Low light is far superior and the camera is much easier to use (ergonomics and accessories like batteries). Not to mention weather sealed to withstand some serious elements which I run into often. Also of course you are holding onto an excellent photography camera which is a great bonus.

Pros for 5d3 in my opinion:
- Easier to use
- More crop when wanted/needed
- Photos
- Weather Proofing
- Lighter
- Low Light Performance

oferlevy

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Re: Canon 5D3 RAW vs Blackmagic cinema camera (the 2.5K version)
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2013, 11:20:16 PM »
Thanks for your awesome comments guys!
Since image quality for me is the first factor to consider I will won't get the BMCC for now. I will just have to buy heaps of CF cards... ;)