ML Workflow for bigger film - LOG ProRes file instead of RAW?

[SteveScout]

Hi, guys!
I´ve been experimenting with all kinds of workflows and definitely would like to stay with ACR since it delivers the best end result which should be key since we´re going to hassle with all the expensive CF cards etc. - I just can´t logistically keep hundreds DNG sequences (even if compressed lossy with Adobe´s own DNG converter) for a Indie feature film, it would be overkill. And I don´t want to jump on Cineform , I could live with less clarity and more blur, but the highlight recovery and rolloff is a big mess in Cineform, it produces pink cutoff areas in all my shots.

Do you think one of the talented programmers can somehow write a script/plugin for After Effects that reads DNG sequences for batch converting and writes ProRes files? I know Prores won´t work on a PC, but maybe some other compressed file format that can handle 10bit? And while being developed in ACR it might make sense to underexpose them to get most of the highlights and then apply some form of log-curve to it to bake the maximum you can get into this file, then write it out as 10bit log and keep those files then instead of the DNGs.

99% of the folks shooting with Alexas trust the 10bit log ProRes files all the time and never shoot ArriRAW, so if you can get as close as possible to those Quicktime files it should be the easiest workflow if it can be automated for batch-conversion. What do you guys think?

cheers,
Steffen

[Danne]

Maybe you should try out the ginger plug-in? It makes it possible to batch-convert to whatever format with adobe media encoder. Simply add the plug-in to the plugin folder in adobe media encoder and you can drag and drop all your raw files at once

[SteveScout]

Yes, good point, I did. GINGER´s advanced features (two level merge, blende, filmic curve) are a blast .. But somehow the highlights looked similar to Cineform - clipped very early, as if the raw file would contain less info on dynamic range than what ACR finds in it.

[iaremrsir]

Yes, good point, I did. GINGER´s advanced features (two level merge, blende, filmic curve) are a blast .. But somehow the highlights looked similar to Cineform - clipped very early, as if the raw file would contain less info on dynamic range than what ACR finds in it.

Cineform doesn't clip; all details are still there. So could use CF Raw. It's smaller than ProRes of similar quality and still raw. Plus, the Cineform guys are supposed to be adding new debayer algorithms.

[SteveScout]

Hm, strangely it does for me. But maybe it´s converted to 444 instead of RAW, did not find a setting to choose which cineform-format to convert it to.

Because the files I converted - clip. See image.

[iaremrsir]

Hm, strangely it does for me. But maybe it´s converted to 444 instead of RAW, did not find a setting to choose which cineform-format to convert it to.

Because the files I converted - clip. See image.

In Cineform Studio, set the output curve to Cineon 95-685. That will bring all details back. Also make sure that Sat Clip Point is set to .5 to avoid magenta highlights. If you want to work with the Protune curve you still can. In After Effects or Premiere, set the working space to 32bpc. In AE if you hover over the highlights, you should see that some of them go above 1.0, which means there is still detail there. Use something like HDR Highlight Compression or Levels to bring those details back. In Premiere make sure to use a 32bpc plugin to lower the highlights back down.

P.S. You can tell if it's raw by checking if there's an option for "Demosaic Type" in Studio. If there isn't one, then it's not raw.

[SteveScout]

Trying right away, thanks a LOT for your help!!

[deleted.account]

In Cineform Studio, set the output curve to Cineon 95-685. That will bring all details back. Also make sure that Sat Clip Point is set to .5 to avoid magenta highlights. If you want to work with the Protune curve you still can. In After Effects or Premiere, set the working space to 32bpc. In AE if you hover over the highlights, you should see that some of them go above 1.0, which means there is still detail there. Use something like HDR Highlight Compression or Levels to bring those details back. In Premiere make sure to use a 32bpc plugin to lower the highlights back down.

P.S. You can tell if it's raw by checking if there's an option for "Demosaic Type" in Studio. If there isn't one, then it's not raw.

If you map to Cineon 95-685 'restricted' 10bit levels range you shouldn't get values over 1.0 in a 32bit project, similarly no negative -0.0 either, so no need for HDR to LDR compression. That would be why you 'see the detail come back', it's within 0.0 - 1.0 display space, beyond those levels the data will appear clipped and crushed, doesn't mean it's lost though.

At 10bit you have 1024 levels available and with a 32bit workspace no clipping whatever the source levels range, you may not see your highlights or shadows on your monitor correctly, making you think they are clipped and crushed, until you pull them into the 0.0 - 1.0 display space range in the grade but they're still there unclipped ie: < 0.0 >1.0

If you however map to 0 - 1023 and make full use of 1024 levels you will go beyond 0.0 - 1.0 should you have such data in your raw again at 32bit the data won't get clipped, but to 'see the detail come back' you'll need to grade it into 0.0 - 1.0, so decision is transfer full range and grade later or squeeze into restricted range at conversion regardless of 32bit workspace. Same old 8bit video levels range restricted vs full, crushed and clipped etc etc.

Camera raw straight into 32bit workspace will not clip, so does LOG matter at all when working at 32bit? If going to 16bit or 10bit then yes.

Sorry iaremrsir if I misunderstand your comment.

[SteveScout]

Hm, still not really working for me. The magenta highlight clip is gone, but the magenta halo around highlights (quite big if you shoot into the sun) which ACR does not show is still there - and I need to underexpose to retain highlights in AFX, can´t get it into it normally without clipping. Might wait for their version 2.0 ...

[iaremrsir]

If you map to Cineon 95-685 'restricted' 10bit levels range you shouldn't get values over 1.0 in a 32bit project, similarly no negative -0.0 either, so no need for HDR to LDR compression. That would be why you 'see the detail come back', it's within 0.0 - 1.0 display space, beyond those levels the data will appear clipped and crushed, doesn't mean it's lost though.

At 10bit you have 1024 levels available and with a 32bit workspace no clipping whatever the source levels range, you may not see your highlights or shadows on your monitor correctly, making you think they are clipped and crushed, until you pull them into the 0.0 - 1.0 display space range in the grade but they're still there unclipped ie: < 0.0 >1.0

If you however map to 0 - 1023 and make full use of 1024 levels you will go beyond 0.0 - 1.0 should you have such data in your raw again at 32bit the data won't get clipped, but to 'see the detail come back' you'll need to grade it into 0.0 - 1.0, so decision is transfer full range and grade later or squeeze into restricted range at conversion regardless of 32bit workspace. Same old 8bit video levels range restricted vs full, crushed and clipped etc etc.

Camera raw straight into 32bit workspace will not clip, so does LOG matter at all when working at 32bit? If going to 16bit or 10bit then yes.

Sorry iaremrsir if I misunderstand your comment.

No you're correct. I should've clarified a little better. You only need to use the HDR compression when not using a Cineon-like curve. So if using Protune, then you can use 32-bit. Otherwise, no need. And using the Cineon 95-685 will recover all detail out of the file that is there. And SteveScout, would you mind posting a CF Raw file so I may see if I get the same problem?

[bnvm]

If you wan't a 10 bit log file out of AE you can use DPX. It has a 10 bit log option and is an industry standard for film.

[iaremrsir]

If you wan't a 10 bit log file out of AE you can use DPX. It has a 10 bit log option and is an industry standard for film.

Doesn't work like that when decoding DNGs with AE. Unless he were to put an sRGB to Linear then a Cineon Conversion Lin->Log. And I believe we was looking for a compressed format. DPX isn't one. And AE doesn't support DPX-C.