EOS M versus T3i (600D) ?

[SoccerTeaz]

Can anyone compare the quality of RAW and H264 produced from these two cameras, running ML/Tragic Lantern?

In general, first, with ML settings optimized  (bitrates maxed, etc),
how would users compare the resulting RAW and H264 results on these two cameras?

And, more specifically:
I saw some lovely examples of H264 video shot on a 600D, that looked almost as good as RAW; the comments indicated that using tragic lantern they'd jacked up bitrate (played with Slice and GOP settings too i think?), and were getting something like 90-95Mbps, so the video didn't have nearly the compressed look I'm getting on my EOSM.
I'd really like to have one of my cameras running H264 with audio, while the other does RAW (two camera documentary shoots), so getting the H264 to look that good would be absolutely great.
But my EOSM is limited to 40Mbps, so I'm thinking that's why I'm stuck with so much more in the way of compression artifacts?  So,
WOULD BUYING A T3i GIVE ME A MUCH LESS COMPRESSED-LOOKING H264 video result?   
HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE IS THERE?
Thanks!

[tupp]

I have the T3i, and I just got the EOS-M.

The T3i can use Tragic Lantern 1, but the EOS-M cannot, so there are more h264 settings available with the T3i (D-block settings, most importantly).

However, I haven't had a chance yet to fully experiment with the EOS-M, but, using the latest TL builds, one can probably get close to the clean look of the T3i/TL1 combo.  Just set GOP to 1 (or 3, but no greater than 3) and boost the bit rate as high as possible (should be able to do CBR 2.5 with a good card and a moderately complex scene).

One big advantage of the EOS-M is the wide variety of lenses and adapters that it accepts.

[SDX]

I have both and used them for quite a while.
Quality-wise there is absolutely no difference. I use the 600D when shooting for real and the M for having a camera with equal quality, but doesn't require it's own bag. And both when shooting long exposures and timelapses.

There a three things to consider:
- Lenses. The M accepts a much wider range due to the low distance to the sensor from the mount. Good for those using old fashioned manual lenses.
- AF. The M can take STM lenses for continuous autofocus during recording. The 600D can't.
- Interface. I love having something solid in my hands. Tons and tons of buttons are to me just a mean to faster and more efficient usage. Others might like the fancy smartness of a touchscreen. The truth is just that it isn't as fast as using the more traditional interface of the 600D once you got used to it.

I have not much to say about video, that's not my area.

Evaluate it for yourself and compare it to the price. Remember: better spend your money on glass, it's going to last so much longer than the camera, which will be outdated in 3 years time.

[gary2013]

I have the T3i, and I just got the EOS-M.

The T3i can use Tragic Lantern 1, but the EOS-M cannot, so there are more h264 settings available with the T3i (D-block settings, most importantly).

Not true at all. I have used every nightly build of TL since last July without any problems. Read all the threads for the M. And read my latest post I just made about H.264, CBR up to 20. 0, flush rate 30, GOP 1 shooting 1080p30 with audio on the M.

[gary2013]

Can anyone compare the quality of RAW and H264 produced from these two cameras, running ML/Tragic Lantern?

In general, first, with ML settings optimized  (bitrates maxed, etc),
how would users compare the resulting RAW and H264 results on these two cameras?

And, more specifically:
I saw some lovely examples of H264 video shot on a 600D, that looked almost as good as RAW; the comments indicated that using tragic lantern they'd jacked up bitrate (played with Slice and GOP settings too i think?), and were getting something like 90-95Mbps, so the video didn't have nearly the compressed look I'm getting on my EOSM.
I'd really like to have one of my cameras running H264 with audio, while the other does RAW (two camera documentary shoots), so getting the H264 to look that good would be absolutely great.
But my EOSM is limited to 40Mbps, so I'm thinking that's why I'm stuck with so much more in the way of compression artifacts?  So,
WOULD BUYING A T3i GIVE ME A MUCH LESS COMPRESSED-LOOKING H264 video result?   
HOW MUCH DIFFERENCE IS THERE?
Thanks!

raw in crop mode gives excellent resolution and greater range for color grading. but, what a hassle and huge amount of time just to get the raw on a NLE timeline to edit. might be fine for a small thing like a commercial but imagine how long it will take processing all the raw files on a documentary. and forget shooting a long interview with raw. same reasons. get a BMPCC if you want prores or raw to work with in a decent amount of turnaround time.

Save half or more of your money from a T3i and get the M. I had a T3i. the only thing i liked more about it was the articulating screen and the normal lense mount. Same quality images/video from both cameras using the APSC sensor.

[tupp]

Not true at all. I have used every nightly build of TL since last July without any problems. Read all the threads for the M. And read my latest post I just made about H.264, CBR up to 20. 0, flush rate 30, GOP 1 shooting 1080p30 with audio on the M.

I thought that the nightly builds were a continuation of Tragic Lantern 2, not Tragic Lantern 1.

[gary2013]

i never heard of TL version 1 or 2. I just always download  http://tl.bot-fly.com/

[1%]

T3i and EOSM are fairly different: Sensors, processor, video modes, resolutions, sd controller, encoder.

If you up the bit rate to the max "x" rate and make it flush really fast, it will dump the highest QP frames it "officially" can. What's better...? You'd have to put them up against each-other and test.

[tupp]

i never heard of TL version 1 or 2. I just always download  http://tl.bot-fly.com/

Here's TL1.

Here's TL2.

TL1 has more h264 controls (for the 600D) than TL2.

[tupp]

T3i and EOSM are fairly different: Sensors, processor, video modes, resolutions, sd controller, encoder.

I seem to recall a post somewhere on this forum that suggested the EOS-M has a greater tendency for moire'/aliasing than the T3i.

If you up the bit rate to the max "x" rate and make it flush really fast, it will dump the highest QP frames it "officially" can.

Would love to understand what all of this sentence means.  Does "flush really fast" mean a higher number in the flush rate setting?  Furthermore, are you saying that "flush really fast" results in high quality P-frames?

[1%]

I think the limit for flush rate on EOSM is 2, I don't remember off the top of my head if that makes all one type of frame. Really fast is a low number. This time gop isn't linked to flush so you may be able to do gop 1, it has been a while since I pushed the H264.

Here is what Gop1 Crop Mode ISO 1600 gets you:

Code: [Select]

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Baseline@L5.0
Format settings, CABAC                   : No
Format settings, ReFrames                : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP                     : N=1
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 22s 731ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 110 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Original height                          : 1 088 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Original display aspect ratio            : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 fps
Color space                              : YUV


[gary2013]

Here's TL1.

Here's TL2.

TL1 has more h264 controls (for the 600D) than TL2.

which one is posted daily on http://tl.bot-fly.com/  ??

[tupp]

which one is posted daily on http://tl.bot-fly.com/  ??

I think that those builds descended from TL2, but perhaps someone from the #1/#2 period can clarify/enlighten.

[tupp]

I think the limit for flush rate on EOSM is 2, I don't remember off the top of my head if that makes all one type of frame. Really fast is a low number. This time gop isn't linked to flush so you may be able to do gop 1, it has been a while since I pushed the H264.

Thanks for the explanation!

When you say that "this time gop isn't linked to flush, "  do you mean in the latest TL builds or do you mean with the EOS-M vs. other cameras?

Here is what Gop1 Crop Mode ISO 1600 gets you:

Code: [Select]

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : AVC
Format/Info                              : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile                           : Baseline@L5.0
Format settings, CABAC                   : No
Format settings, ReFrames                : 1 frame
Format settings, GOP                     : N=1
Codec ID                                 : avc1
Codec ID/Info                            : Advanced Video Coding
Duration                                 : 22s 731ms
Bit rate mode                            : Variable
Bit rate                                 : 110 Mbps
Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
Original height                          : 1 088 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Original display aspect ratio            : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 23.976 fps
Color space                              : YUV


That's a useful list of characteristics.  How was it generated?

Thanks!

[gary2013]

Is there anything wrong with using flush rate 30? I am using TL Feb 21. I do need audio and 1080p30 all the time. Audio off seems to allow better settings.

How many people out there with the M and TL? Can we get everyone to post their best settings for H264? Would it be better with a new thread subject POLL EOS-M best H264 settings?

[1%]

If you flush every 30 frames then you're keeping them all in the buffer. If you do gop 30 then that is the longest one you can have at 30fps... all of the frames will be referenced to eachother at least in theory.

When you say that "this time gop isn't linked to flush, "  do you mean in the latest TL builds or do you mean with the EOS-M vs. other cameras?

In TL1 the gop wasn't a cache hack so they could only be set to one setting. Ie, reference 24 frames to eachother and write them after 24 frames.. etc. For 600D, 3 was a good deal.

What I don't get is flush of like 3 and long gop like 24 since you've already written the frames you're supposed to be compressing against. That's what I mean by "in theory".

[gary2013]

If you flush every 30 frames then you're keeping them all in the buffer. If you do gop 30 then that is the longest one you can have at 30fps... all of the frames will be referenced to eachother at least in theory.

1%,

if I flush 30 and GOP 1, will that then make it Intra-frame? not inter-frame. and if so, would VBR be better or CBR for the best quality?

Thank you,
Gary

[1%]

Theoretically gop 1 is all I already. A flush 30 and gop 1 will hold the 30 I frames in the buffer. No VBR/CBR distinction here in reality just like most other canon encoders. 6D/5DIII the jury is out but they are real encoding modes and rate doesn't change according to ISO.

"CBR" (the 1x, 2x, whatever) - Raise/Lower the QP to stay away from filling the buffer.
"VBR" (qscale) - Fixed QP, no raising lowering

Now on a simple encoder, like in these bodies, ISO and the scene will alter the bit rate even at the same QP. in short its VBR no matter what you do.