650D/T4i Raw Video

Started by PeteTomov, May 28, 2013, 12:01:19 AM

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tjgehc

Hi All,

first of all thanks for the wonderul work you all are doing. really appreciated the efforts Dev team & this community.

I have recently installed ML to my canon 650d, because I was curious about the dual ISO & Raw video feature (using sony 95mb card). I am impressed with the result of dual ISO footage. But on the other hand I am facing challange in raw video. I converted the raw file to dng using raw2dng.exe however non of my application is recognizing DNG format. so far i have tried PS cs6, LR5. i also updated my Adobe Camera Raw to version 8.2 but still no hope. I would really appreciate your help on this.

Thanks
TJ

_DK_

Quote from: sivencov_v on January 29, 2014, 10:20:04 AM
if you do it like an adult, then the music video, you must first draw the storyboard! then to take only those frames that are needed;)
...

Storyboards are only possible if there is a specific plan. Especially for rap videos this is very unlikely.
For most of the music videos this is how it is done. This way especially when working with people who are unfamiliar with cameras it is not important if they make mistakes like looking away from the camera. This is very likely for newer artists who never done this before.
Of course when there is a story in the video, a storyboard would be pretty useful. However it is not like I go out and randomly shoot scenes. I have the places and the things I want to get, but I just use many different angles to get more variation and to avoid the mistakes of the actor/musician.
You know new musicians have very tight time schedules so they can't redo a scene very often ;)



Quote from: tjgehc on January 29, 2014, 12:54:13 PM
...
I converted the raw file to dng using raw2dng.exe however non of my application is recognizing DNG format. so far i have tried PS cs6, LR5.
...

Even PS CS2 is capable of opening it. Lightroom 5 works fine for me too.
Are you sure you used the converted frames? Maybe you accidentally used the unconverted file. Every picture should be a single item (~24 pictures for each second of video). If you use the file where they are all saved in one file it does not work.
EOS 650D, 17-50 2.8, Nifty Fifty, Tamron 70-300mm
Sorry if my English is a little bad as I am not a native speaker

tjgehc

Even PS CS2 is capable of opening it. Lightroom 5 works fine for me too.
Are you sure you used the converted frames? Maybe you accidentally used the unconverted file. Every picture should be a single item (~24 pictures for each second of video). If you use the file where they are all saved in one file it does not work.
[/quote]

Thanks for the relpy DK, i guess i am messing up with something here as i was also quite shocked that even PS CS6 is not reading my files. Althoug i am quite sure that i converted my raw file to dng as there were tones of DNG farmes in my extracted folder..

bubsiec

Hello everyone, I've been the silent tester for Magic Lantern for a bit now. I'm finally going to leave my findings of the ML 650D RAW video here for you to read.

First a BIG thank you to the developers of Magic Lantern.

I've read through the threads that you need a SDXC Extreme Pro card 95/mbs for continuous shooting @ 1280 x 720p.
Its not the case for me. I use a SDHC Extreme card 45/mbs for continuous shooting @ 1280 x 720p.
My first run made the 4gb limit, so what I did was reformat to exfat and then did another test which it made it past the 4 minute mark and no signs of stopping.

My next finding was that the RAW format used on Magic Lantern is indeed shooting at 1920 x 1080p but being cropped to a 1280 x 720p frame. Let me elaborate.

I first filmed using the original canon codec @ 1920 x 1080p, setting the camera on a tripod, then leaving the camera in the same exact position, I switched to the RAW format @ 1280 x 720p and the center of the image stayed in the same exact position in the frame. The 720p RAW image is a cropped frame ( all four sides of the image cut off ) of the 1080p.

Next the RAW video was then converted to DNG format and placed along with the canon codec 1080p on a SONY Vegas 1080p timeline. I then took the 1080p image and zoomed it to match the 720p RAW cropped image and the results were astonishing to me.

Now since both images are equals of each other 720p RAW image ( a crop of 1080p ) and Canon codec 1080p ( cropped to match RAW 720p ), the 720p RAW image surpassed the image quality of the Canon codec by leaps and bounds in detail and dynamic range.

Here is a video I made of the comparison.


My next test will be similar except of leaving the camera in the same position as the Canon 1080p image, I will reframe the 720p RAW to match the Canon 1080p frame.

Please let me know what you think.

christo

Quote from: bubsiec on January 30, 2014, 02:51:46 PM

Please let me know what you think.

The scenes you're shooting don't really have a lot of range to them to begin with, hard to see the real benefits of shooting RAW. I'm surprised you can get such images on both with 0 noise though.. I can't seem to do that without reasonable lighting.

What's the accepted best workflow for retaining as much quality in RAW's while minimizing processing time and workload on the computer? I'm going to be using the MLV_snd and rec modules (so i can extract wav) , i guess use mlvdump to get RAW files, then use raw2dng with the pinkdotremove built in. But then I'm unsure of what to do with the DNG's from there on

bubsiec

Quote from: christo on January 31, 2014, 04:28:58 PM
The scenes you're shooting don't really have a lot of range to them to begin with, hard to see the real benefits of shooting RAW.

I agree they don't have a lot of range, but what I was trying to achieve was more capabilities in detail with raw. The raw file was upscaled in a 1080p timeline vs the original 1080p footage cropped to match the 720p as far as framing. Raw truly excelled.

Quote from: christo on January 31, 2014, 04:28:58 PM
I'm surprised you can get such images on both with 0 noise though.. I can't seem to do that without reasonable lighting.

The camera settings were the same for both raw and h.264.
ISO 400
Shutter @ 1/48 magic lantern hack
I used a 35mm rokinon cine lens @ T-Stop 2.8

I turned off all the lights and closed all blinds in my home and used 1 Umbrella lighting with a 45watt cfl bulb.

The combination produced an amazing image with no noise as I did not do any post editing.

Quote from: christo on January 31, 2014, 04:28:58 PM
What's the accepted best workflow for retaining as much quality in RAW's while minimizing processing time and workload on the computer?

I don't use the MLV I use regular RAW both are offered in magic lantern.

First I take all the raw files and put them on my desktop in a folder.
Second pass the raw file folder through " Pinkdotremover " which will override the orignals. So keep another copy elsewhere before using Pinkdotremover! Also when you use it and press convert you will not see anything happening, which is OK, DON'T TOUCH IT! It will let you know when complete.
Third pass the overidden raw file folder through " BATCHelor_3.0_Alpha3 ". It will create your DNG files.
Forth is the tricky part, I open the files in Adobe After Effects. I hit the import tab then click on the first DNG file of the sequence, then click sequence in the same import box.
Fifth Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) will open which will let you do any color corrections you need to do. Once done hit OK.
Sixth is now sending it to render. Render it at settings Best, and Lossless. Render will take the longest of steps. But worth it.
Voila !!
Now you have and avi lossless file which you can edit freely AND do color corrections if needed again.

jimmyD30

Quote from: bubsiec on January 30, 2014, 02:51:46 PM
Hello everyone, I've been the silent tester for Magic Lantern for a bit now. I'm finally going to leave my findings of the ML 650D RAW video here for you to read.

You beat me to it! Nicely done, I was in the process of doing a similar test comparing H.264 to ML RAW myself, now I can think about doing something else :-)

For a better presentation with a test of this nature I would suggest using Vimeo, even with a free account you can control the quality better than you can with YouTube, this can help demonstrate your test videos better as Vimeo doesn't do as much compression.

jimmyD30

Quote from: christo on January 28, 2014, 04:00:25 AM
Most of the pages on this thread show people running the RW test from ML , and basing conclusions off that. As i just explained, im averaging like 30 mb/s, varying from 29.3 to 34 or so.. this is nowhere near the 60 mb/s it's advertised at. I'm not understanding why it's a proper testing method for others but not in this case, can you elaborate?

The only card for me that writes 1280x720@24fps continuously until the card runs out of space without dropping a frame for close to 32GB is one that's rated 95MBps, I happen to be using SanDisk Extreme Pro version. I've tried the 45MBps ones and they came up about 1MBps too slow to write according to the above mentioned spec. I've never tried the 60MBps ones, so I can't comment on those (although you would think they would be able to write the 37.5MBps or so needed for continuous 720p@24fps). You could always film at the next lower resolution and upres in post without any worries, but I'm not sure how the PinkDotRemover tool handles resolutions other than 720p normal and at 3x crop, which it does very well for both of these.

Also, for some reason the card writes faster when filming then it ever does in the ML card speed tests that I've done, so I would be cautious as to relying on those results for final determination of the cards ability to film 720p@24fps RAW continuously.

jimmyD30

Quote from: bubsiec on January 31, 2014, 07:30:13 PM
I don't use the MLV I use regular RAW both are offered in magic lantern.

First I take all the raw files and put them on my desktop in a folder.
Second pass the raw file folder through " Pinkdotremover " which will override the orignals. So keep another copy elsewhere before using Pinkdotremover! Also when you use it and press convert you will not see anything happening, which is OK, DON'T TOUCH IT! It will let you know when complete.
Third pass the overidden raw file folder through " BATCHelor_3.0_Alpha3 ". It will create your DNG files.
Forth is the tricky part, I open the files in Adobe After Effects. I hit the import tab then click on the first DNG file of the sequence, then click sequence in the same import box.
Fifth Adobe Camera Raw (ACR) will open which will let you do any color corrections you need to do. Once done hit OK.
Sixth is now sending it to render. Render it at settings Best, and Lossless. Render will take the longest of steps. But worth it.
Voila !!
Now you have and avi lossless file which you can edit freely AND do color corrections if needed again.

I concur, my work flow is exactly the same. You can see some of my videos here: https://vimeo.com/jamesdesira

bubsiec

Quote from: jimmyD30 on February 02, 2014, 05:19:42 AM
For a better presentation with a test of this nature I would suggest using Vimeo, even with a free account you can control the quality better than you can with YouTube, this can help demonstrate your test videos better as Vimeo doesn't do as much compression.

Hey Jimmy, sorry I beat you to it.  ;) lol, I do have a vimeo plus account, I just happened to upload from Youtube first and made that post while Vimeo was rendering.

I will be doing a lot more tests coming soon.

christo

Nice workflow!

The reason I mention MLV is because it allows you to record sound also, to my knowledge the regular RAW modules do not allow this, whereas MLV you can extract a WAV file also. It seems like I can mimic your workflow but just do the beginning differently (using mlvdump to get the RAW files etc)

EDIT: not 100 % sold on rendering AVI files either, I think something like DNxHD might be better to work with in premiere (again just preference here, but my PC is 3 years old and not built for multimedia so i need to save resources where I can)

jimmyD30

Quote from: christo on February 03, 2014, 06:40:01 PM
The reason I mention MLV is because it allows you to record sound also, to my knowledge the regular RAW modules do not allow this, whereas MLV you can extract a WAV file also. It seems like I can mimic your workflow but just do the beginning differently (using mlvdump to get the RAW files etc)

Yeah, I like MLV for the audio aspect of it too, especially for syncing to external recording. Not sure what's available for it as fas as post production goes now, but when it first came out there was no conversion apps for OSX platform, that's the main reason I stuck with the legacy RAW version. Also, not sure if MLV with audio on causes the 650D to take a performance hit with regard to 1280x720@24fps continuous recording capability.

I agree with you about outputting as AVI, early in the post process anyway (I don't know enough about it to say yea or nay really), but I do know you can't go wrong exporting RAW as lossless or ProRes 4444 for archiving then comverting into other formats as the need arises.

bubsiec

Quote from: christo on February 03, 2014, 06:40:01 PM
EDIT: not 100 % sold on rendering AVI files either, I think something like DNxHD might be better to work with in premiere (again just preference here, but my PC is 3 years old and not built for multimedia so i need to save resources where I can)

Quote from: jimmyD30 on February 04, 2014, 12:37:29 AM
I agree with you about outputting as AVI, early in the post process anyway (I don't know enough about it to say yea or nay really), but I do know you can't go wrong exporting RAW as lossless or ProRes 4444 for archiving then comverting into other formats as the need arises.

AVI is a editing lossless format, ProRes 4444 and DNxHD are great formats but after rendering them a few times you begin to degrade the footage as they are lossy formats. AVI can get several passes before it loses quality. AVI also prints image information on each individual frame which aids in better editing.

Yes depending on your machine AVI might not be feasible since files can be large.

As far as MLV over legacy RAW yes the camera does suffer a bit when recording with MLV, I personally use an external recorder for all my work and have a clapper board with a small crew.

Everyone's situation is different, just continue to make quality material, no matter how you get there!

spider


jimmyD30

Quote from: sivencov_v on January 09, 2014, 08:14:49 PM
dear friends! anyone else have flash with speed 95mb/s ? I would like to hear feedback from the owners? I want to buy such a vehicle, but I think worth it to take or not?

P.S. sorry for my English )

Hey, was just shooting some RAW and repeatedly I wasn't getting continuous 1280x720@24fps, so I went to an older build and now I'm getting continuous all day long!

Try 2013-12-21 nightly build, that's December 21, 2013 or even try a day before and a day after, cause I can be off a 1/2 day due to time zones.

Give that one a shot and tell me what you think.

EDIT: Also, try formatting your cards exFAT at 128KBs, less headers to write than default size of 4KBs, considering each frame is about 1 MB (8 blocks) there won't be much waste.

timkev

I'm having trouble understanding whether or not it is possible to record audio while recording RAW videos.
If it is, could someone please let me know the step by step process how to do so. I'm quite new to Magic Lantern.

Thanks!

jimmyD30

Quote from: timkev on February 06, 2014, 12:26:26 PM
I'm having trouble understanding whether or not it is possible to record audio while recording RAW videos.
If it is, could someone please let me know the step by step process how to do so. I'm quite new to Magic Lantern.

Thanks!

I know that you can record raw video and audio using the newer MLV recording format instead of the older RAW format. First you have to make sure you are using a build that offers it, one of the nightlies, not the older alpha build (unless a newer alpha or a beta build is now available which includes it, then you can use that). Then you need to turn on a few of the modules that don't get automatically loaded when using magic lantern. Also, there are different apps needed for post processing mlv then what you would normally use for the older raw format without audio.

I'm just giving you some high-level of info here, because I know for sure all the nitty-gritty details are readily available in previous post and other threads, just google 'magic lantern mlv recording format' and I'm sure you'll find your way, here's a good place to start though: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=7122.0

davocork

I can manage to record 720p for a maximum of about 2 and 1/2 mins on the 650D using a genuine Sandisk extreme pro with 95MB/s write speeds. The Sd contoller on the camera is for sure the limiting factor and shows on average a maximum speed of 36/7 MB/s whihc is right at the edge for 720p recording. Its still a great feature to have though and 2 min clips are fine for my needs.some videos shortly

My main problem with the videos I have shot seem to be aliasing and noise issues.

I've also done a couple of short videos for showing how to install ML and the RAW features on the 650D, 600D and 700D. Hope these help someone. It took me hours to figure it out :)




jimmyD30

RE: davocork

You can eliminate aliasing/moire by using digital 3x crop mode (when it's practical), see my video here: https://vimeo.com/jamesdesira


Also, see my post above for a different build and card format that will give you 720p@24fps raw continuous, plus make sure you set Canon auto-shutoff to never when recording raw, as the camera doesn't detect usage in this mode.

davocork

Hi Jimmy, thanks for that, i will try the 3x crop tomorrow. Do you get the same aliasing and moire artifacts too in your vids (non crop)? In my vids it makes the vids pretty well unusable - its really bad..

I am guessing any of the vids i see which look good on youtube/vimeo are also shot in 3x crop mode?

I did try your build recommendations on your older post but still couldn't get 24p continuous. I also did the exfat format (and 128 header) and can record over the 4GB limit but it normally drops a frame and stops by 5 or 6 GBS. I just think the SD controller is at the absolute max it can cope with.


jimmyD30

Quote from: davocork on February 16, 2014, 01:08:44 PM
Hi Jimmy, thanks for that, i will try the 3x crop tomorrow. Do you get the same aliasing and moire artifacts too in your vids (non crop)? In my vids it makes the vids pretty well unusable - its really bad..

I am guessing any of the vids i see which look good on youtube/vimeo are also shot in 3x crop mode?

I did try your build recommendations on your older post but still couldn't get 24p continuous. I also did the exfat format (and 128 header) and can record over the 4GB limit but it normally drops a frame and stops by 5 or 6 GBS. I just think the SD controller is at the absolute max it can cope with.

Some of my videos were shot in crop mode (all were shot as raw), but the ones that weren't I did not experience much aliasing/moire, mostly due to the subject matter I would imagine though. The amount of moire is completely dependent upon the subject you are shooting, objects with fine, closely spaced lines/patterns of any sort will cause moire, like a window screen or a roof top with shingles, etc. some DSLR videographers consciously try to avoid shooting these types of objects.

Aliasing is something different and any DSLR camera which uses line skipping (which I believe are all) will have it, the reason you don't get aliasing with ML digital 3x crop mode is because there is no line skipping in that mode.

No question the camera is near it's limit at 36/37MBps, that's why to get continuous raw at 720p@24fps you have to employ every tweak possible, like those I mentioned plus most everything else with ML needs to be turned off, especially all the global draw stuff. Also, when we talk about 24fps, we mostly really mean 23.976 (ML may display 23.973 or something) and that little bit of difference might make it work.

davocork

Hi Jimmy, thanks for the great info! Its really helpful. I'm gonna do a full test on crop mode etc tomorrow and get back to you.

I got some good news today though;
I did a quick test today on my 650D. I managed continuous 720p Raw recording for as long as I wanted. The difference was I used raw_rec instead of mlv_rec !

So to clarify raw_rec allows continuous non stop recording but mlv_rec will stop after about 2 mins in my experience.

jimmyD30

Yeah, I was going to mention that also, but I wasn't sure if you were using MLV because you didn't mention anything about audio. I had the same experience, RAW works continuously but MLV doesn't for 720p@24fps.

davocork

The MLV format is really usfl for me cos of its sound capability. Since most of my shot are really only v short i'll probably continue to use MLV a lot

anakin316

my raw video despite whatever white balance setting i use, turns out very warm. I only converted to .dng files for now, but i wanted to know if there is a way to fix that since I guess it could be fixed in adobe after effects but is this normal?