The CinemaDNG Discussion (raw2cdng)

Started by chmee, May 23, 2013, 10:46:55 AM

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eoshq

Quote from: reddeercity on November 02, 2013, 07:29:59 AM
I found a work around , with AE link below
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8177.msg86395#msg86395

This really gains us nothing because you could have been doing this all along, and all the way back to at least CS5, maybe further. There has been a Dynamic Link between After Effects and  Premiere pro for a long time. So, yes this does get your cdng (or dng, BTW) footage into Premiere Pro without the pink cast, but I would not call it a workaround. It is really apples and oranges, two totally different processes. Let me explain further. This way negates any advantages of the new cdng functionality of PP 7.1. By using Dynamic Link back to After Effects it is massively slower and using tons of extra CPU because it is literally using After Effects to render the footage in the background. Check the Process viewer while doing this and you will see that an instance of After Effects is running along side Premiere Pro.

Oh and there is no reason to save a copy of your After Effects project as a CS6 copy when you do this Dynamic Link method as described in your video, not sure where that idea came from but it does nothing to benefit this process.

dude

Sorry, but that s wrong.
At the moment, importing dngs in AE, making proxys and open this AE Sequence (not like in the video safe as premiere) in premiere, you have the best workflow.
no exporting, no xml, no metadata and no comlicated workflows with davinci.
unless Premiere is able to open dng s via acr, this is the best non destructiv workflow.
At the moment, Premiere only applys some Camera metadata to the dngs when opening them, no way to work with that.

hookah

Quote from: dude on November 02, 2013, 12:36:06 PM
Sorry, but that s wrong.
At the moment, importing dngs in AE, making proxys and open this AE Sequence (not like in the video safe as premiere) in premiere, you have the best workflow.
no exporting, no xml, no metadata and no comlicated workflows with davinci.
unless Premiere is able to open dng s via acr, this is the best non destructiv workflow.
At the moment, Premiere only applys some Camera metadata to the dngs when opening them, no way to work with that.

This workflow was possible all the time - but its almost impossible to work that way. (even on my workstation 24core xeon, 24Gb ram, quadro 5000)
Its okay for small sequences/projects.
5D3, Sigma Art 35mm 1.4, Tamron 24-70mm 2.8 VC, Tokina 11-16 2.8, Canon 50mm 1.4 + 100mm 2.8 macro + 15mm

chmee

..in terms of efficiency its wrong calling it workflow - its tea- and coffeetime with some moments of interacting  ;D
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

dude

I just did a 200 GB project with this workflow,
it s the only one which holds up the full quality during the post process.
I am editing videos for about 15 years now, and with my new i7, i can play for and back in the timeline as i want it. i remeber some time when even viewing h264 footage was not really able with premiere.
Feel free to show a more efficient workflow...

chmee

discussion has been done in other threads - the resolve-roundtrip-workflow "was" an efficient one imho. the simple things to change, core-values like exposure or whitebalance means, re-rendering raw-files - a no-go (!) in terms of efficency(!). NOW we have a better resolve10 and hopefully a doped adobe-world. Did you try roundtrippin/dynamiclinking with speedgrade now? It's to me/to us to optimizing now the converter-tools. (davinci-xml-roundtrip was not complicated and gave you all the time control over these core-values. acr is the better debayer-tool, but fast? never.)

regards chmee
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

mrnv45

ive been doing this workflow http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spwR2bsbvls
and its been perfect since i cant run resolve with my dngs.. they force close my resolve

chmee

by now i sat at the pink or green cast in the raws - its not scientific, but a first help if you're using speedgrade with dynamic link. actually i downloaded speedgrade CC as a trial. give it a try, because: you're able to twist the wrong color matrix into a useable one. i bought for this reason a colorchecker passport, just to see how good the raws are.

(1) in "clip" you'll find the "color space", the third tab. to give you an idea of the direction i linked a picture with my settings on a greenish picture (dont know why its not magenta). you can make a first justage on greycards or some other black/white things. look on the histogram on the left to match the upper and lower boundaries, being same value.
http://dl.phreekz.de/raw2cdng/magiclantern_correctMLI.jpg
(2) after that i pushed the contrasts, working good with the colormatch-layer..
http://dl.phreekz.de/raw2cdng/magiclantern_correctMLII.jpg
(3) this example just took 10minutes to understand speedgrade and to solve..

here's one picture from the file
http://dl.phreekz.de/raw2cdng/colorchecker_example_16bit.dng
if you rebuild my example, you'll see, only with the green value for blacklevel you can barely eliminate green or magenta fill-light

dont hesitate, try this video to understand speedgrade.
http://tv.adobe.com/watch/no-stupid-questions-with-colin-smith/introduction-to-speedgrade/

but, i'm sitting on that to figure out, how to solve that without this rework. i assume, till now the apps didnt look into the colormatrices, speedgrade is the first one. (!) please do not forget, adobe will work with 10, 12 or 16bitfiles. not with 14bit.

regards chmee
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

a1ex

Quote from: chmee on November 03, 2013, 02:06:03 AMyou're able to twist the wrong color matrix into a useable one

A related trick: if you have problems with highlights, try turning off the color matrix. I've fixed this bug in ufraw (basically I'm shifting the matrix towards eye(3) as you approach the clipping point), but judging from a recent sample from Audionut, Lightroom has the same problem (and probably all other Adobe apps).

Malex

Hi Alex, what editing software are you using?
Do you think a modification in the DNG export softwares could fix that pink color in Premiere/speedgrade, I saw this question asked somewhere but with no answer, is it possible to export cdng from raw so that it would be like the blackmagic cdng ?

chmee

@malex we're workin' on that. (i wrote that 1 entry before!)
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

eoshq

Guys we have been sold on a false idea when it comes to editing Cinema DNGs in the new Premiere Pro 7.1

Even when it works correctly, as with Black Magic Cinema Camera (BMCC) files, it is pretty much worthless as you lose the main reason for shooting raw in the first place, raw adjustments.

Over on the Creative Cow forums, one user has put it like this:

" It appears that Premiere Pro uses only part of the latitude of the RAW format, there's apparently no way to change it, and it's apparently suddenly impossible to access the full tonal range of RAW.

As an example, I have some footage with burnt out clouds. If I open a DNG image in Photoshop or After Effects, I can edit the exposure upon import, and bring back all the latitude on the clouds. That's the whole point of using RAW.

In Premiere Pro, CinemaDNG seems cropped to video levels, and I can't bring back any information in the highlights. I simply turn down blotchy over-exposed highlights."

You can read the whole thread here http://forums.creativecow.net/thread/3/947862

Sadly, as it stands now I see no point in editing cdng natively in Premiere Pro.

hookah

Quote from: eoshq on November 04, 2013, 07:37:46 AM
Sadly, as it stands now I see no point in editing cdng natively in Premiere Pro.

Damm We was so close :-)

But adobe said:
We understand your frustration and are continuing to work hard on this. Getting correctly debaryed GPU accelerated CinemaDNG was quite a success for us. Adding the options is now possible.

So we must wait a little more..

5D3, Sigma Art 35mm 1.4, Tamron 24-70mm 2.8 VC, Tokina 11-16 2.8, Canon 50mm 1.4 + 100mm 2.8 macro + 15mm

gary2013

Quote from: eoshq on November 04, 2013, 07:37:46 AM
Guys we have been sold on a false idea when it comes to editing Cinema DNGs in the new Premiere Pro 7.1

I was upset after the latest PPro update. But, I have been happy using Ginger HDR workflow. It's pretty easy to wrap a DNG seq to a gnr file and import that gnr into PPro CC.

Gary

chmee

:) I'm a little bit sneering :) Adobe only said, Premiere will have cdng-support - they never said it will support full bitdepth-range including all effects. but it works good, if you're working with speedgrade as "controling-unit" via dynamic link. no coffeetime-pre-, re- or backgroundrendering (as with AE), and fulltime-control over the important values, in a significantly better and faster GUI than ae. Please, think about it - if you have been fooled by adobe or you have fooled yourself because of high-hopes - now you can put your cndg-sequences directly into premiere, then linking from there into the better tools to refine the footage - non-destructive.

But, i hope as well, they put at least a "simple" cdng-properties-window into premiere to change some core-values as wb/temperature and exposure.


my 2cents.  chmee
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

gary2013

I was avle to import ML DNG seqs before the 7.1 update. So, nothing new there. And I was able to get/use ACR on an import of ML DNG seqa and now that is gone with the latest AE CC update?? The least I wanted/expected was ACR on import of DNGs to PPro and to maintain access to the 14 bit raw for grading in PPro. If, if I needed more tools for grading, trehn a trip to SG. I was hoping to recall ACR in PPro like Photoshop has always done. Maybe ML can hack Photoshop into being a good raw video editor/color app?  :)

Last Sept when Adobe announced this update, I was talking in email to an Adobe rep and he did lead me to believe what I just said. I told him I was using Canon with ML and I wanted to import raw DNG seqs and edit them "natively" with all the beauty of the original raw 14 bit. He said that was coming in the Oct " 15th" 7.1 update. And now it's a different story. We need a new editor app from a small hip upstart company. They can be Black Lantern.

chmee

..by now you've got Speedgrade as your Realtime ACR, with Premiere as the main Holder of your timeline - neither with proxies nor with baken 8bit-sequences. Thats my thoughts..
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

gary2013

Premiere, AE and SG are changing the DNG files. Didn't you read the thread we had in the COW forum? Per kivked it off wit-
Per Holmes on Oct 31, 2013 at 5:11:17 pm

Hi,

I just got the new Premiere Pro 7.1, and excitedly started testing the CinemaDNG workflow, and I've hit a massive wall. It appears that Premiere Pro uses only part of the latitude of the RAW format, there's apparently no way to change it, and it's apparently suddenly impossible to access the full tonal range of RAW, even with Speedgrade or After Effects.

As an example, I have some footage with burnt out clouds. If I open a DNG image in Photoshop or After Effects, I can edit the exposure upon import, and bring back all the latitude on the clouds. That's the whole point of using RAW.

In Premiere Pro, CinemaDNG seems cropped to video levels, and I can't bring back any information in the highlights. I simply turn down blotchy over-exposed highlights.

If I take the sequence over into SpeedGrade, it's the same. I'm not able to pull any information out of the clouds, only reduce the brightness of already blotchy over-exposed clouds.

If this really is designed this way, what the heck is the point? The ONLY, I feel I can safely repeat, ONLY reason to shoot RAW is to be able to access the full tonal range of the image. But Premiere Pro seems to crop the latitude range to a video range.

But then there's no point in shooting CinemaDNG, and not simply shoot ProRes.

What am I getting wrong? Or what in the world are the designers thinking here, killing the one and the only reason anyone would use RAW in the first place?

Further, it appears that it's not even possible to "upgrade" to full CinemaDNG. If you've imported CinemaDNG in Premiere Pro, the manual says that the clip will be locked to that tonal range, even as you bring it over into SpeedGrade, which I've confirmed.

I can't figure it out. If this is true, CinemaDNG playback is an completely pointless non-feature.

What the heck?

Per

chmee

sorry, didnt read the cow-thread - ok. thats bad. so, i'd take speedgrade as footageholder and import them via dynamiclink into premiere - just be patient with my opinions, i'll upgrade to CC-subscription end of this week.
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

gary2013

I am sorry. I forgot the link. check out all the posts in that thread.
http://forums.creativecow.net/readpost/3/947862

gary2013

Quote from: chmee on November 04, 2013, 11:39:40 AM
so, i'd take speedgrade as footageholder and import them via dynamiclink into premiere
I will have to try that out. but, on the other hand, that can be a drag having a ton of footage sitting there in SG that does not make the final edit.seems backwards.

chmee

actually i'm playing around with the dng-tags from a 5DIII-Frame. while irfanview shows massive changes (changing values for colormatrix, analogbalance,asShotNeutral and so on) and photoshop cant even import them (colormatrices doesnt map equal camera values to XYZ D50) -> Speedgrade isnt interested in these changes, it looks all the same. tried that with bmcc-files as well (colormatrix to 100 010 001) - nothings changing.

It seems, Speedgrade is reading only the raw/bayer-data while not been interested in correctiondata. i dont like the idea of dividing green sensels by 2 to get "working" pictures, because thus i destroy the philosophy of raw-data. so it must be done in spedgrade.

please some do me a favour, give me a dng-file with a magentacast (mine have clearly greencast, because of the two green sensels (double the value) and raw output without colormatrix.. the only working way would be to build a LUT. The DCP-Files (4750°K) from X-Rite doesnt work, but i found a Tool to convert them into xml, so here's the pastebin-link. its not a lut, but a colormatrix.

btw. put the RGBtoXYZ-"Correction" on the Footage, (its the +Sign in the layer-window) does it help?

regards chmee
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

hookah

5D3, Sigma Art 35mm 1.4, Tamron 24-70mm 2.8 VC, Tokina 11-16 2.8, Canon 50mm 1.4 + 100mm 2.8 macro + 15mm

chmee

i just played a lot more :)

i wrote a colormatrix (as template/example) you just can put on the whole timeline. Take this XML-Data, save it into a .look-File (f.i 5DIII_Greencast.look). Save this File into

C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe SpeedGrade CC\settings\looks\CinemaDNG

now you can use it as a saved colormatrix as seen in this screenshot:
http://dl.phreekz.de/raw2cdng/5DIII_Greencast_Example.jpg

(!) Thats a first understanding of RGB2XYZ and this sort of problems. Shortly saying, its not impossible. I dont know if i'd solve it (when using SG) in the cdng itself.

regards chmee

@hookah
if i use this file in Speedgrade, its got a greencast - and its looking quite good with my template.
http://dl.phreekz.de/raw2cdng/Hookah_Example.jpg
[size=2]phreekz * blog * twitter[/size]

hookah

Okay

If i import direct into SG i also get a greenisy image
- If i use your look-file it looks OK

If i import into premiere i get pinkish image - if i send it to SG via dynamiclink, its still pink.

Then i made a new look/lut with inspiration from yours (quick adjusted by hand - need some more scientific fine tuning) for use in premiere in its Lumetri effect
- no roundtrip to SG, can play in full res, realtime inside premier.. SO COOL !!!

Here is my look/lut
http://pastebin.com/ituVygkk

5D3, Sigma Art 35mm 1.4, Tamron 24-70mm 2.8 VC, Tokina 11-16 2.8, Canon 50mm 1.4 + 100mm 2.8 macro + 15mm