Author Topic: 50D Raw video  (Read 678850 times)

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3900 on: October 30, 2013, 08:11:09 PM »
> On the 50D VAF filter.

I was going to send an EOS-M to Mosaic, to see if they could do a filter, but then I did the math.  $300 body plus $300 filter and you might as well get a BMPCC.  Yes, they're backordered, but eventually that will end and then where would Mosaic be?  I think this the same problem with the 50d.  I know they made a one-off for someone, and it worked well.  So my guess is Mosaic just doesn't feel the economics justify it going into production for an old camera.  That would be my business advice to them, as much as I love ML.

On the bright side, I do believe aliasing can be fixed more in post than it is now.  I've been working with the focus pixel problem and think I have a fix for that.  We'll see.  I'm an old dog and working with 14 bits in an 8/16 bit world is making me cry and these young devs aren't interested in walking old men across the street :)

> As for the video aliasing filter

I just don't see it 1%.  It seems if that was possible Sony would have put them into their VG cameras a long time ago.  The 5D3 competes with the D600/D800 and it can't afford to lose ground in the RAW photo/image space.  The Nikons have higher resolution which isn't for nuthin'.  As for the 6D, that is really a consumer 60/70D with a full-frame sensor.  EVERYTHING else about the camera is cheap plastic (which is fine for the vacationer).  IF there is a new souped up chip, as I believe, why would they put it in that camera? 

It's also part of my point above.  There are electronics that sit before the firmware that do things which you can neither see nor control.  It dumps out pixels.  Where those pixels come from, how they are processed, on that level, is all conjecture, far as I can tell. 

jamesd256

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3901 on: October 30, 2013, 11:53:06 PM »
Just chiming in to say thanks to all the developers, deep gratitude for your efforts.  After a long hiatus, back in love with ML.

Just gone out and bought a 50d and a 32GB Komputerby 1000x for a grand total of £255 + £55.  Just recorded my first 1920x1080 video using the latest tragic lantern build, card didn't miss a frame.  Jaw dropping stuff.  Anyone want to buy a 550d?  :)  Tragic lantern looks beautiful by the way, and the new features are stunning.  DIGIC focus peaking is a thing of joy, totally un-expected.

Just a couple of small comments about workflow.  First attempts using the free tools have been succesful.

Going raw2dng -> ufraw-batch -> virtualdub (cineform 10-bit codec from GoPro studio).  I found using the ufraw gui to correct exposure and white balance, and do some noise reduction then going to config, copying the XML and saving to a file to call from ufraw-batch worked well and gave good results.  The noise reduction in Ufraw is very good actually, but slows the workflow down.

Dissapointed to find that Aftershot Pro doesn't pick up the DNG format generated.  Anyone have success with that?  I would love to use this, because the OpenCL acceleration really is very good on my system

Since been trying raw2gpcf.exe.  It's very fast, but only 422 with the free version.   Looks like I'd need to spend $1k to get the raw output on the pro version.  Is that correct?  Looks to me like the 422 version isn't that useful in a raw workflow because you miss the chance to grade in raw.  I don't have ACR, so looking for the best workflow to get the best out of the footage.

Exciting times.
5D3, 550D

lionelp

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3902 on: October 31, 2013, 01:19:34 AM »
I think the Go pro/ Cineform full version is $299.00. Although there is a $1K version but I believe that you can access the full version of Cineform for $299.00. It's not free though.
Canon 60D, 50D | Lenses: Nikkor : 18-55 , 3.5 | 50, 1.8 | 24, 2.8 | 28,2.8 | 35, 2.8 |Helios 58 | A few other Nikon manual zooms and prime lenses|
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50Deezil

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3903 on: October 31, 2013, 06:53:42 AM »
I would think that any footage with the filter removed, if it IS the way the 5D3 has reduced aliasing/moire would show tons of it.  To me it looks like one of the commentators is right, the filter is more about IR, or something else.  Am I missing something?  Seems this video proves exactly the opposite, that Canon is using electronics to deal with aliasing issues in the 5D3 (that it didn't do in all cameras previous)

Even Mosaic says take their filter out before doing serious photography.
It gets confusing but the Anti Aliasing Filter in Photo Cameras is not there to prevent Aliasing and Moire in Video.  It's just enough for the high resolution of a full sensor output but not strong enough for the needs of video.  The reason some DSLR's have avoided major issues with Moire and Aliasing has to do with how they get to the smaller resolution of 1080p video from the much larger output of the sensor.  Panasonic in the GH2 was using pixel binning to downsize the image which is better than line skipping. Canon was using line skipping in all their DSLR's until the 5DmkIII which I think they now use Pixel Binning to downsize from full sensor to the much smaller 1080p, which leads to a better final image with less moire and aliasing and more preserved detail.

rockfallfilms

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3904 on: October 31, 2013, 10:37:55 AM »
> On the 50D VAF filter.

I was going to send an EOS-M to Mosaic, to see if they could do a filter, but then I did the math.  $300 body plus $300 filter and you might as well get a BMPCC.  Yes, they're backordered, but eventually that will end and then where would Mosaic be?  I think this the same problem with the 50d.  I know they made a one-off for someone, and it worked well.  So my guess is Mosaic just doesn't feel the economics justify it going into production for an old camera.  That would be my business advice to them, as much as I love ML.

It would be a shame not to have a VAF for the 50D but you're probably right in what you're saying. It would be interesting to see how many people on this forum would actually buy one if it was available for the 50D. Maybe we should do a poll?

I don't see the BMPCC as an alternative for me as it would require an investment in lenses to make best use of the Super16 sized sensor.  I've already got all the lenses I need to shoot on APS-C, so it makes sense to stick with that sensor size. I did think about maybe going for an EF BMCC but even that would require another lens to cover the wide end.

I shall just work around the moire/aliasing as best I can.

jamesd256

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3905 on: October 31, 2013, 02:10:15 PM »
It would be a shame not to have a VAF for the 50D but you're probably right in what you're saying. It would be interesting to see how many people on this forum would actually buy one if it was available for the 50D. Maybe we should do a poll?

I don't see the BMPCC as an alternative for me as it would require an investment in lenses to make best use of the Super16 sized sensor.  I've already got all the lenses I need to shoot on APS-C, so it makes sense to stick with that sensor size. I did think about maybe going for an EF BMCC but even that would require another lens to cover the wide end.

I shall just work around the moire/aliasing as best I can.

I'm guessing the solution in this video loses you resolution?  Looks quite a nice way of tackling scenes where you know you will face moire:

5D3, 550D

SleeperNinja

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3906 on: October 31, 2013, 02:22:19 PM »
1%, you are the Yogi Berra of Magic Lantern :)
Nobody likes a butt kisser.

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3907 on: October 31, 2013, 02:29:15 PM »
Nobody likes a butt kisser.
I meant it as when I read his posts I'm not sure if he's really serious or flippant.  These are what Yogi Berra said as a manager

'90% of the game is half mental"

About a restaurant: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded"

"It ain't over 'til it's over"


maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3908 on: October 31, 2013, 02:31:29 PM »
It gets confusing but the Anti Aliasing Filter in Photo Cameras is not there to prevent Aliasing and Moire in Video.  It's just enough for the high resolution of a full sensor output but not strong enough for the needs of video. 

Exactly, it's there because each pixel is separated by some dead space.  Video aliasing/more come from skipped lines, or huge spaces between rows of pixels.

1%

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3909 on: October 31, 2013, 04:39:40 PM »
Quote
I think they now use Pixel Binning to downsize from full sensor to the much smaller 1080p,

Then why are the modes and behavior the same as 1x and 5x mode on other cams? All I see is rumor posts before the camera was released and people speculating it has 3x3 binning but no official or empirical proof that it is.

Then I see this guy:

http://www.canonwatch.com/eos-5d-mark-iii-hacked-anti-aliasing-filter-removed-more-sharpness/


Filter is blurring/darkening the image... hmmm sounds like that would take down moire just like the VAF. Also the moire issues seem related to sensor size and resolution output + how it divides up and then debayers. 

goldenchild9to5

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3910 on: October 31, 2013, 05:04:49 PM »
I don't see what the big deal is with the Aliasing and Moire on the 50D, when you create great content the viewers won't even have time to pin point Aliasing and Moire, nor do they care about it.  I've seen big time Aliasing in Hollywood movies, in major TV shows do most viewers care "No" they are more interested in the storyline.  I am satisfied and thankful for even shooting "Raw" on a camera that didn't even shoot video a big WOW for that, and the images are comparable to camera's 20 - 50 times it's cost  ;D  just saying. 

1%

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3911 on: October 31, 2013, 05:16:17 PM »
I don't think its an issue on 50D+ at all. Just don't shoot things with moire in them. To me the hot pixels and FPN is a much much bigger issue than some tiny moire on striped things/roofs.

goldenchild9to5

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3912 on: October 31, 2013, 05:41:24 PM »
Well said 1% or we can learn to ignore the moire and aliasing.

lomka

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3913 on: October 31, 2013, 05:44:42 PM »
i think you can avoid Moire by softening a picture while recording(a bit out of focus) so that it matches 1080p h256 in softness, and then you can sharpen it in the post.

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3914 on: October 31, 2013, 06:21:42 PM »
I don't think its an issue on 50D+ at all. Just don't shoot things with moire in them.

1% I have the greatest admiration for you as a developer, but I find this advice not so expert.  First, moire is, foremost, a psychological reaction to visual cues.  Our brains are wired to move about our environment and abstract a physical reality in which we can move, make sense of.  Is that a Jaguar in the shadows?  Is this a puddle, or the edge of a canyon wall?  When our brain is confused by what it thinks is a line that should connect, we see moire.  In short, moire is our brains way of saying 'this doesn't make sense, look harder, or watch out, I don't know what this is!'  So moire is a HUGE problem in video because it distracts the viewer from the general image.

Moire is a both a naturally occurring phenomenon and a description of similar aberrations in digital images.  It can be produced "technically" by the camera creating artifacts between disconnected pixels (visual information).

Yes, I don't want to shoot things that are known to produce moire.  But I have two practical problems.  One, I can't see if moire has occurred on the LCD of the 50D.  I won't know until I'm off the set and looking on a monitor.  If it's there, getting rid of it is not easy.  Yes, the effect can be mitigated by choosing better debayering, but NOT eliminated.   Second, sometimes I want to shoot a house, say, and I can't do it in non-crop mode without getting a lot of distracting moire/aliasing effects on the siding, say. 

Please don't think I disagree with you on how the 5D3 has solved these problems.  I do not know.  It might be a filter.  It might be binning.  All I was saying is  you were implying it is a filter and not being clear that it is your opinion, not fact.  As a very well respected dev your opinions means a lot on these forums.  With 'power comes responsibility' :)

I hope we can both work together to figure it out and find solutions in the meantime. 



SleeperNinja

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3915 on: October 31, 2013, 06:33:01 PM »
I meant it as when I read his posts I'm not sure if he's really serious or flippant.  These are what Yogi Berra said as a manager

'90% of the game is half mental"

About a restaurant: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded"

"It ain't over 'til it's over"
You're the one that the fat general called a, "cheeky fellow."  8)

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3916 on: October 31, 2013, 06:47:28 PM »
You're the one that the fat general called a, "cheeky fellow."  8)

Thanks that cheers me up because only posts can I give that impression.  In real life I now play the part of the "fat general".  And let me say, just to be perfectly clear, without 1% I wouldn't be here.  I know, as much as anyone, what he has accomplished with the EOS-M.  I'm working hard to make that camera deliver on the promise 1% has made possible.

simulacro

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3917 on: October 31, 2013, 06:50:40 PM »
So moire is a HUGE problem in video because it distracts the viewer from the general image.

I saw this movie on a 5 meter screen and it had quite visible moire on some shots, but the juries of several film festivals didn't care

We get really obsessed in the technical part, because the rule of trendy cinema is Hollywood, but even there they don't care that much. Wasn't one season of 'House' shot with muddy 5d h264?
simulacrofilms.blogspot.com

funkysensation

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3918 on: October 31, 2013, 06:52:22 PM »
@rommex
Thank you for your comments. 
There is no special technique, mabe it´s the lens or Davinci Resolve lite 10+fringing workaround. The majority of shots were done with open aparture and the background is slightly blured. Btw still a lot aliasing and moire in the shots but in this case acceptable for me.
 

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3919 on: October 31, 2013, 07:00:12 PM »
The majority of shots were done with open aparture and the background is slightly blured.

If your subject has no hard lines, say a face, then this technique will pretty much not show moire.  AGAIN, I'm not saying you can't shoot without moire.  I'm not saying that 1% doesn't have a point for most film-makers.  All I'm saying is it is currently always a risk with the 50D in normal mode.  If you shoot a building on a bright sunny day say, stopped-down, you're in for a world of hurt ;)

menoc

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3920 on: October 31, 2013, 07:42:16 PM »
I don't see what the big deal is with the Aliasing and Moire on the 50D, when you create great content the viewers won't even have time to pin point Aliasing and Moire, nor do they care about it.  I've seen big time Aliasing in Hollywood movies, in major TV shows do most viewers care "No" they are more interested in the storyline.  I am satisfied and thankful for even shooting "Raw" on a camera that didn't even shoot video a big WOW for that, and the images are comparable to camera's 20 - 50 times it's cost  ;D  just saying.

It could get pretty bad in certain scenes . . .

Wlad81

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3921 on: October 31, 2013, 07:42:44 PM »
Yes. in fact the 5DMIII has a built in filter which BTW, you can remove if you're brave enough . . . Check out James Miller's post on Vimeo:



The picture is almost as good as that of the VistaVision. Same vivid colors, same resolution. Great! Hate to hear that "film is better". Film is not better, it's worse because of grain.
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lomka

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3922 on: October 31, 2013, 08:55:17 PM »
If I want to match the focal length in crop mode to non crop mode can I use 5x wide angle lens adapter? And does they even exist?(I mean the 5x ones)

maxotics

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3923 on: October 31, 2013, 09:25:18 PM »
If I want to match the focal length in crop mode to non crop mode can I use 5x wide angle lens adapter? And does they even exist?(I mean the 5x ones)

I use a Sigma 10-20mm in crop mode and it words great.  You could also try a 4.5mm or an 8mm.  Some are afraid of those lenses because they are "fish-eye", but in crop mode, they are not.

lomka

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Re: 50D and 40D Raw video
« Reply #3924 on: October 31, 2013, 09:44:54 PM »
and i have 1 more question is there only 5x crop on 50d? cuz i have heared of 1920x1080 in 3x crop