50D Raw video

[D.L. Watson]

Oh I see. Did you shoot without lighting indoors then?

Ideally, yes - if you spent the time to light the scene to prevent blown out windows, you could extend the dynamic range. But I could do that with any camera.

I don't want to come across like I'm hating on the 50D - it's just 200 gigs for a two minute short film is outrageous. The short film I'm in post-production with would have taken at least 10 terabytes of space. That adds up.

People can talk about how great of a bargain the 50D is, but someone can find a great deal on a high-quality car engine - but you still need to buy the rest of the car for it to actually be functional - and those accessories bloat the actual cost.

[lomka]

is there a big difference in highlight and shadows and noise between 50d and 5d mark 3?

[1%]

For GH2/GH3/ARII/RED/ETC you still need the accessories. Price will bloat anyways.

Just you'll be buying less memory cards w/ GH3.

I think we need some sort of raw compression after the fact (some stuff tries but its not seamless). And maybe in place playback/render to sweeten the deal. This would push more widespread adoption + usability.

Raw is still raw though... how much space does red footage take up?

[simulacro]

People complain about the cons of the raw file sizes as if they had before something nearly as good as 14bit depth raw video. But before, you only had two choices: videotape and celuloid (later h.264, mpeg, dvcpro, etc). The one used in cinema production was of course more difficult to manage than videotapes, but that's the price you had to pay to get the best IQ.

Now, you have an option: work with the equipment you have, learn how to use it, and in my opinion, with ML raw 14bit, you really have to be more accurate every time you press the record button. That's efficiency, and that's what people did before, not wasting meters of celluloid and being precise in your work. The same applies with raw.

[1%]

I never got to shoot on film but this is 90% similar from everything I read... film scans would be same/larger than this.

[maxotics]

I think we need some sort of raw compression after the fact (some stuff tries but its not seamless). And maybe in place playback/render to sweeten the deal. This would push more widespread adoption + usability.

We already have that,  RAW to Cineform 422 (raw2gpcf.exe).  It hardly adds any time from camera to NLE. 

Unfortunately, the world is split between H.264 users intoxicated with sharpness and silly intra-frame CODEC adjustments on the Panny cameras, and RAW "graders" who over-adjust every last bit of color information. 

If we had a solution that interpolated focus pixels from raw and created Cineform / ProRes files in one step I really believe the latest Canon cameras, like the EOS-M, would take off.  I think they will anyway. 

I'm telling you, 1%, that EOS-M has legs

[rockfallfilms]

Ideally, yes - if you spent the time to light the scene to prevent blown out windows, you could extend the dynamic range. But I could do that with any camera.

Of course that's true but with more initial dynamic range the lighting package on the 50D would be also be smaller. I tend to light everything, so more dynamic range just makes it easier for me to get the lighting how I want it on set.

What really draws me to Raw are the post options, I just like having more options when it comes to grading.

[maxotics]

If I said, "Don't worry about focus, you can fix it in post" everyone would go berserk.  But if someone says you can fix missing colors in H.264, people believe it?!

[anuberak]

I did some shoots with my 50D in raw and shoot about 6Gb so there where 2 files i converted them with. rawmagic 1.0 beta 4.
but i always get this weird unusable pictures. http://www.flickr.com/photos/39003529@N06/10148008143/
does anyone know how i can fix this problem, because i want to shoot some interviews.
so i need to record longer than 1min 20sec?

[maxotics]

I need to record longer than 1min 20sec?

I'm no expert, but I wouldn't recommend that.   As the sensor warms up it gets noisier.  I have no proof, but that's what I see.  I get similar images to those when something goes wrong with the live view.  You may want to turn off live view?  A dev could answer that.  I wouldn't use the 50D for anything over a minute, 3 minutes max.  If you do get long captures, PLEASE share!  Eventually I'll try it myself.  I just don't think safe for production.  If you do that, you should record safe H.264 with a backup camera.

[1%]

MLV or raw rec?

This camera you *have* to kill the dialogs to not get those when you're recording. It goes off every reboot.

If we had a solution that interpolated focus pixels from raw and created Cineform / ProRes files in one step I really believe the latest Canon cameras, like the EOS-M, would take off.  I think they will anyway. 

But only in crop or zoom.. otherwise its effectively squished 720P. I'm suprised more people don't record 5x there, I guess no display filter

[bart]

I'm suprised more people don't record 5x there, I guess no display filter

I think that is because of the total cropfactor of 4x. I have a tamron 11-18 and on the canon it is great because in a forest you can capture an image that looks like a forest. The cropfactor makes it a 44mm and trees don't fit in there any more. Walking backwards could work and with a decent centre resolution and with little distortion the image looks great. Very detailed 1080p. If that doesn't work i'll go for a dualiso timelapse on the old fashion shutter.
I don't choose between RAW and H264. I just pick the one that fits the situation best. And sometimes I shoot with both the see what works best in post.  My lenses are adapted to canon ef and fit on both cameras. Except for my tamron on the GH2. It lacks control over both aperture and AF. I want to switch that one for a nikon version and use a Nikon G to Canon EF adapter to gain manual control over aperture. Hope that works.

[vyskocil]

Did anyone succeed to open Cinema DNGs from Canon 50D in Resolve 10 Beta? In my case I have immediate CRASH (

Beta 1 was ok,but since Beta 2 Resolve 10 crash every time I try to open a Cinema DNG, even going to a directory with some of these files with the Resolve 10 file explorer crash it straight !

[maxotics]

But only in crop or zoom.. otherwise its effectively squished 720P. I'm suprised more people don't record 5x there, I guess no display filter

Yes, I'm only shooting in crop mode now.  On the EOS-M, I believe it's only 3x, because the lens is closer to the sensor.  Anyway, my Sigma 10-20mm works well in crop mode, 45mm. On the 50D, it's 5x, so not I'm getting 10x1.5x5 or 75mm.  The lens to really have is the Sigma 4.5mm 2.8.   On the EOS-M is would be 21mm, the 50d, 34mm.  Sweet!  I'm SO CLOSE to getting that lens, but the following stops me from pulling the trigger.

1. Used, the lens is $550 and it's not very useful except for this crop-mode purpose.
2. An $800 (new) lens is moving way from the inexpensive nature of ML and the 50D/EOS-M
3. If the BMPCC were available I could put my 14mm MFT on it and for an extra $500 (vs 4.5mm lens) have 1080p and straight to ProRes.

At this point, I'm going to continue my experiments with reducing moire in non-crop mode and use my 10-20mm in crop mode, which I'm very, very happy with.

But for those of you reading this, looking for wide angle on the 50d, I'm pretty sure that camera, with the 4.5mm in crop mode, would be a killer combination.  Short of that, you can pick up 8mm lenses for around $200.  With an effective 60mm on the 50d, in crop mode, you could shoot an indie film, IMHO.

[1%]

4.5 isn't fish eye? Wouldn't you have to deconvo the whole thing?

I sent my tokina 11-16 in, want to try that, esp on a FF (its 11*-1.6 factor). I guess on APS-C like M/50D/7D it might not be enough even though the 1x on the 7D is much nicer looking vs both of these.

[maxotics]

4.5 isn't fish eye? Wouldn't you have to deconvo the whole thing?

I sent my tokina 11-16 in, want to try that, esp on a FF (its 11*-1.6 factor). I guess on APS-C like M/50D/7D it might not be enough even though the 1x on the 7D is much nicer looking vs both of these.

The "fish-eye" name is what photos look like at that focal length / aspect ratio.   A 10mm would be considered fish-eye, but when in crop mode (45mm) does not look that way.  Here is some footage I shot yesterday in 2.35:1 with the EOS-M.  Straight to Cineform.  (sorry this is a 50d thread, but if you like this you'd LOVE it on the 50D).

As you can see, doesn't look fishy at all   I can't see that the 4.5 would be any different, except that it would look 21mm. 

What is the 1x for the 7D you mentioned?  Is that a crop mode without moire? 

[1%]

Normal LV... so lenses work as intended. there is moire but only on moire producing stuff.

Its not fisheye in 5x either? Thats good news, I wanted to get the 14mm in case it did but if they jerk me on my repair I can get the smallest maual samyang and just live with defishing the photos.

[maxotics]

There was barrel distortion with some of my previous videos where I used the 0.22 Wide-Angle converter lens.  You'd definitely need to so some corrections using those converters.

But I haven't experienced any "fish-eye" effects on any "real" lens in crop mode.  So your 11mm, cropped to any non "fish-eye" focal length should look perfect.  That's a great lens to have with the EOS-M, BTW.  I love my 10-22mm. 

The only issue, as I understand it, is that lens is tuned to deliver maximum sharpness at its intended focal length.  When you go into crop mode, you're stressing the lens optics, so to speak.  I believe this is a problem with all these consumer RAW solutions though.  The trade-off is well worth it.

In short, you shouldn't need to de-fish, say, the Samyang 8mm in crop mode.

[rommex]

Beta 1 was ok,but since Beta 2 Resolve 10 crash every time I try to open a Cinema DNG, even going to a directory with some of these files with the Resolve 10 file explorer crash it straight !

I just got the clarification from BMD Support:

That issue should be sorted in the next Beta release. I don't have a time estimate for when the next Beta will be released.

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13534&p=85981#p85981

So in order to have the ability to process ex-ML files we have to roll back to R9.

[rockfallfilms]

I just got the clarification from BMD Support:

That issue should be sorted in the next Beta release. I don't have a time estimate for when the next Beta will be released.

http://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13534&p=85981#p85981

So in order to have the ability to process ex-ML files we have to roll back to R9.

i just reinstalled Beta 1 and it works again now.

[rommex]

i just reinstalled Beta 1 and it works again now.

Nice to know. Thanks!

[artiswar]

Ideally, yes - if you spent the time to light the scene to prevent blown out windows, you could extend the dynamic range. But I could do that with any camera.

I don't want to come across like I'm hating on the 50D - it's just 200 gigs for a two minute short film is outrageous. The short film I'm in post-production with would have taken at least 10 terabytes of space. That adds up.

People can talk about how great of a bargain the 50D is, but someone can find a great deal on a high-quality car engine - but you still need to buy the rest of the car for it to actually be functional - and those accessories bloat the actual cost.

Shot a short on the MKIII Raw and even with the original .RAW files in combination with CDNGs and graded ProRes 4444 of every shot I only have a single terabyte. That's 17 minutes of edited footage and probably about 2 hours of raw footage.

The biggest advantage creatively with RAW is being forced to shoot like celluloid. We slated everything, got only the shots on the shot lists, and got stellar on location audio. My scripty noted the good takes so in the edit, it flew. Very feasible for creative work.

@1% a 5 minute non performance based music video took up around 200 GBs from the RED ONE in 2k at 120fps.

[1%]

So 2K at 24FPS would be like 40GB per 5 min?

And people are complaining

[artiswar]

So 2K at 24FPS would be like 40GB per 5 min?

And people are complaining

More like per 7 or 8 minutes. Definitely comparable.

[riccardocovino]

I don't know how you got 200GB for 5 mins 2K on RED, it's more like 1GB per minute at 24p, so 120 should be around 5 GB, so way better than CinemaDNG.
And it couldn't be otherwise, or REDCINE raw compression wouldn't be so famous!