ML UI rationalization

[stevefal]

I think that makes sense

[1%]

Heh, full screen submenu looks good but some things should have small submenu. now you could actually have a 3rd level, like a small submenu within the fS one, lol

I notice when I select a setting over LV I can't move down to the next one anymore.

[sutobe]

There's two things I noticed with today's Nightly build:

1. Outside Liveview in Overlay menu.
Histogram is green but maybe should be orange since it's also only working in LV




2. There's no info which of 4 possible Overlay Layouts is selected, making it difficult to configure them (usually shown right next to the "Global Draw" option)





I like the idea of secondary menues being fullscreen (this is also is a good workaround for the splitting Audio menu symbol lol).

Any chance the picture can be moved downwards when Inverted Screen is activated?  Because when it is und and you set the screen on "even lower" the screen actually is moving upwards.

[a1ex]

Histogram does work outside LV, just take a picture

[sutobe]

Yes well I was refering to the ML overlay but it's not a big deal aynways ;-)


But this might be, just noticed when you're trying to correct values per ML (exposure, ISO etc) the screen doesn't turn transparent anymore, both video and photo mode

[stevefal]

I agree testing with other people is a good idea.

[SDX]

Just compiled from the main repo and tested the menu. It took 30 seconds to get used to it, even though it is different. Good. Definitively a candidate for a comparative test (IMHO).

[1%]

its easier on the eyes an icons seem more straight forward to use. just sad adv hdr is crashing. hex browser I fixed but don't know how to override the current digit.

[basovandrey]

"Google translation"

Hello. 
Hopefully on the logic of developers and propose to completely abandon button "Q"
1. It is very easy to press the buttons that are next.
2. no need to think what button to press Q or SET.
3. All becomes clear and simple.
4. Button Q bad button an uncomfortable.

[stevefal]

I like the idea of making things simpler. This might go too far.

[g3gg0]

well it sounds like the discussion "mac" vs "pc"

mac: one mouse button is enough
pc: we have a left click for normal functions and a right click for advanced/options

i prefer the PC style. one SET button for enable/disable/select and a Q button to open the submenu.

[stevefal]

I think there's more to it though..

[1%]

Bad enough power switch on 6D is on wrong side. When I drive I can shoot with 600D 1 handed and switch ml settings. To have to use menu to cancel close is a death sentence for operation.

[Marsu42]

Hi all,

Disclaimer: I admit I didn't follow the recent ui threads, but often compile the ml trunk to get the latest features. So it might be seem a bit like nagging if I only post if I dislike something, but imho either the GNOME ("You don't need/want that feature") is the way for ml nor the Windows8/GNOME ("People get confused by windows, you want full screen") submenu commit https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/commits/31c81a3d8fead31693417ee826299e852f213f12 ... I repeat what I wrote elsewhere because I was told this is the correct place.

First off there probably is a different usage style between amateurs/newbies and professionals, just look at the camera bodies Rebel vs. 5d3/1dx with more buttons - less complexity eases the way into using a dslr and ml, but quickly limits you when it slows you down achieving your goal. Since I have been using ml for quite some time, I'm in the latter group, and I'd wish ml would gain more appeal to pro and advanced photogs now that the code is more stable.

So here it goes: Imho the full screen submenus are a major slowdown for navigating ml - I have to re-think "where am I?" every back & forward because all of the screen changes. I see the rationale to gain space for more verbose settings & descriptions, but imho it's too large a regression. Ml recently has gained great features that could be used for pro shooting like exposure lock, but here a fast and non confusing navigation is everything - either with many unrolled menus like on the 6d, or with submenus like on the 5d3 but with a navigation bar that tells you exactly where you are.

My issue is not with debugging/"set once and forget" stuff but with the usual shooting settings because you need to be able to change the latter quickly in the field, having two Canon/ml menus is already an (acceptable) complication, but I'd avoid anything that complicates flipping through and setting things like bracketing, exposure lock and so on. I'm looking forward to the ml "My Menu" for the same reason...

Btw: As for the rest of the newer ui appeal in the current trunk: Well done, the colors and greyed out option make navigating much easier (until using a submenu that is...).

[wolf]

the way for ml nor the Windows8/GNOME ("People get confused by windows, you want full screen")

using arch and mate-desktop and did not get confuse by full screen submenu. I just prefer simplicity, but I can deal with small submenus as well.   

So here it goes: Imho the full screen submenus are a major slowdown for navigating ml - I have to re-think "where am I?"

So my proposal is to keep the fullscreen submenu, if this is technically possibly, in the script menu. The advantage of more parameters is obvious and for scripts with no parameters it appears less confusing or clearer to me.

[a1ex]

Well... after considering all the previous proposals and arguments, I'd settle for:

- Windowed submenus (with up to 11 items, just like full-screen ones).
- Only one level of submenus (see my links from ml-devel for rationale).
- SET for most used action: ON/OFF, pickbox for 3+ choices, edit mode for ISO & friends, run action. Fallback to submenu only if there's nothing else to do.
- Q (or equivalent): toggle submenu (advanced settings menu, think of it as right-click). Maybe fallback to pickbox or edit mode.
- Zoom In: edit in LiveView. Maybe the LiveView button can do the same (should be more obvious).
- MENU goes back (close submenu, cancel edit mode). Fully optional, just for consistency with Canon menu.
- LEFT/RIGHT always does the same thing as top scrollwheel (navigate or edit).
- UP/DOWN always does the same thing as rear scrollwheel (navigate or edit). Scrollwheels are just accelerators.

This behavior is implemented in current trunk (4f4cf19c3177).

Any objections?

If you want to do A/B testing and try SET for submenus, Q for ON/OFF and so on, feel free to do so, but implement the test code yourself. I'll just optimize the current keybinding scheme and layout, which I think it works best for power users.

[screamer]

Great Alex, i love the way you set a point here. agree completely with your keybindings, as i've though from the beginning of this discussion, i prefer the q and set roles you gave. So for me is perfect

[scrax]

@Marsu42 I don't see the problem with full screen submenu, there is a bigger title with more words telling you where you are and an icon to show you that it's a submenu. And to get there you have to be in the main menu item before so how can you "lost" yourself?
Instead we get a lot of space were cropmarks, focus patterns and other thing can be bigger, more and more clear.

We are not discussing about a computer GUI, this is not Mac, Win, Linux or Dos it's ML and it's for a camera with not a fixed number of buttons, a small display, full screen on 720px is not so big.
We don't have the needs like on desktop to move around windows to see under them, we are more like a smatphone were any pixel is precious to show info since the space is limited. And maybe I don't remember correct but even Symbian never had windows, why do we need them?

Also full screen submenu are more clean, don't have problems with the icons and they just work good.

IMHO full screen submenu are a winning change and should be adopted in main tree, but if other devs are not agree, it's ok for me to keep them smaller.

[wolf]

I guess only a few people had the opportunity to take a look at the different styles and flavors of ML-bleeding-edge. That's my only concern with this settlement.
Building open source software is mostly a kind of meritocratic way in terms of decisions making and I'm fine with that.
I think fullscreen submenus are better.

[a1ex]

The windowed submenu can be made as big as the full-screen one, so the extra space argument is very weak.

When there are 2 or 3 items in the submenu, the full-screen one looks kinda empty (like those Canon menus with only 2 items).

[scrax]

The windowed submenu can be made as big as the full-screen one, so the extra space argument is very weak.

Ok, just tried

When there are 2 or 3 items in the submenu, the full-screen one looks kinda empty (like those Canon menus with only 2 items).

Also this is not an argument for submenu full screen, you are right about the empty submenus, so let's forget those full screen submenu and think about the actual submenu. With the 1px border they look a bit like an old website to me, @stevefeval have you any idea for making them more inline with the new desing? Maybe just removing the border and making the upper angles curved?

BTW: I'm still thinking we need bigger font with less item on screen, we can't "read" 11 item together (max we can do is 3 or 4) so having less item bigger could be better in theory also for accessibility, no?

[a1ex]

If we can find a better look for the submenu, that's perfect. Maybe some subtle shadow effect.

I've tried Canon Gothic font for main menu (replace bmp_printf's in entry_print with bfnt_printf and increment y by 40 instead of font_large.height (32)). Looks kinda ugly IMO.



So I'd keep the current font and avoid scrollbars.

[scrax]

If we can find a better look for the submenu, that's perfect. Maybe some subtle shadow effect.

I've tried Canon Gothic font for main menu (replace bmp_printf's in entry_print with bfnt_printf and increment y by 40 instead of font_large.height (32)). Looks kinda ugly IMO.

Will try it right now, from the screenshoot I like it more than what we have now, but there was some nice font suggestion in the older topic that could be valid (personally I like that Segoe UI, don't know win users feelings about it). Also PT Sans Narrow is nice.


EDIT: After few test I've spaced them more to 46 for y and fixed audio and focus item number to 7 and 6 default is 8 also added all change under ifdef CONFIG_CGOTHIC_MENU, I like it so far and to me it looks more readable, but scrolling item quick keeping arrow pressed is showing some problem to updatee the selection making all item blue for a little...

[1%]

Tried commits this morning. Don't like that set forces menu to be selected and make bg transparent instead of just toggling forward... but I think this was the only fix for 550d?

[a1ex]

It was like this since 2.3 (until the beginning of this thread). When there are many choices (not just on/off), I find it easier to use left/right for changing the values.