Author Topic: ML UI rationalization  (Read 128245 times)

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #125 on: February 06, 2013, 07:01:41 PM »
Maybe the SET/Q part could still be clearer.
Steve Falcon

Marsu42

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #126 on: February 06, 2013, 07:33:55 PM »
@Marsu42 I don't see the problem with full screen submenu, there is a bigger title with more words telling you where you are and an icon to show you that it's a submenu. And to get there you have to be in the main menu item before so how can you "lost" yourself?
Instead we get a lot of space were cropmarks, focus patterns and other thing can be bigger, more and more clear.

Ok, I'll try once again for peace and understanding's sake :-) ... as I wrote above, I do acknowledge the benefit of more space. But to reiterate the drawback: If the submenu is laid over the opaque main menu, I still have the same visual cues at the top, it's just some added information (the submenu). With full screen submenus, the whole screen is replaced and I have to gather new information (the title bar) to see where I am, and this costs time and causes some confusion because I cannot see that I'm say in the movie main menu (Alex' latest build fixes that problem).

I'm 99% sure that the result of a usability test "change these 10 settings in the shortest amount of time" would be that full screen submenus are slowest.

Also full screen submenu are more clean, don't have problems with the icons and they just work good.

I see your rationale, that's why I mentioned GNOME. Not that a full screen (aka Win8) couldn't make sense on a small screen device - it's about either "function follows form/design" (GNOME) or "form/design follows function" (Bauhaus). Personally and from my experiences while shooting in the field, I don't want the "cleanest"/most stylish look, but the most usable - which is in my case the fastest.

This behavior is implemented in current trunk (4f4cf19c3177). Any objections?

No objections from me, actually looks really good & usable and I feel at home again, thanks :-)

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #127 on: February 06, 2013, 10:33:56 PM »
...I find it easier to use left/right for changing the values.
Me too, plus... Canon
Steve Falcon

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #128 on: February 07, 2013, 12:48:46 AM »
I'm 99% sure that the result of a usability test "change these 10 settings in the shortest amount of time" would be that full screen submenus are slowest.

I don't think so. I think it would be fine.
Steve Falcon

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #129 on: February 07, 2013, 01:13:37 AM »
Proportional fonts would be nice. Tell me if I can help.
Steve Falcon

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #130 on: February 07, 2013, 01:34:15 AM »
now as alex made the menu a lot more structured/cleaner.
cant we make two appearance types?  beginner/poweruser

the one will open submenus/options with set and follows some of stevefal proposed usability guidelines
and the other is more like the current style as we know it.
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stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #131 on: February 07, 2013, 02:33:15 AM »
I think one could work for both.
Steve Falcon

scrax

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #132 on: February 07, 2013, 02:52:46 AM »
With full screen submenus, the whole screen is replaced and I have to gather new information (the title bar) to see where I am, and this costs time and causes some confusion because I cannot see that I'm say in the movie main menu (Alex' latest build fixes that problem).
To me this sound weak like the more space argument I used ;D but now I understood your example about GNOME, and, as you already noted probably, I've already proposed some design suggestion for the submenu not fullscreen.
I'm for the max functionality with if possible a good design, since for me graphics is something important.

BTW: I've read just now the reply from stevefeval and I'm agree with him and in the end it's a matter of taste. I like what those changes are gonna bring to ML UI, full screen submenu or not.

I would like to do the legwork to bring a nice proportional font into the project. I have the workflow to generate bitmap fonts if necessary, in FON, FNT, SFP, SFL and BDF formats.

Is this feasible?

I don't understand in full how ML use font but here there are more technical info about it: http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Fonts
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

scrax

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #133 on: February 07, 2013, 07:44:48 AM »
This is my build from the pull request with also the gothic font and an ML icon added to the menu:
https://bitbucket.org/600Dplus/magic-lantern-fixes/downloads/ML2.3NEXT_20130207_GothicMenuFont_600D-Cmode_CustomDialog.zip
try it if, I found it better to read also from more far.

Just a question, now SET opens pickbox, Q also open pickbox, PLAY decrease value without picbox, what button for increase value without pickbox?

since that is a 3 click vs 1 regression with that new layout, no?
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #134 on: February 07, 2013, 04:26:46 PM »
new MENU and LR icons
Steve Falcon

wolf

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #135 on: February 07, 2013, 06:17:00 PM »
Is it intended that the other items are faded out or is it just because of the development version?


Marsu42

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #136 on: February 07, 2013, 11:59:02 PM »
cant we make two appearance types?  beginner/poweruser
the one will open submenus/options with set and follows some of stevefal proposed usability guidelines
and the other is more like the current style as we know it.

I didn't look at the current menu code, and some more seasoned dev could tell how much code complexity would rise - and size, since it'd probably be a runtime switch and not a compiler one. But I'd advise more time trying to find a compromise or a decision, it's not like the current ui is broken, so no need to rush?

Concerning the latest proposal: I really took the time and compared it step by step with the (very nice) current trunk ui. Please forgive me for not reading the entire thread since multiple proposals seem to have been tried and withdrawn, and I don't want to backtrack that - so please correct me if I've got some intention wrong.

Again sorry I'm very late to this, I really do applaud any effort to make ml more accessible and open it to more user groups - though imho the people ml should aquire next are pro shooters.

* Q button for enabling/disabling and SET for menu: Yes, the old behavior is not consistent with the global draw item. however, the action I do most is enabling/disabling and the SET button is much easier/faster to reach than Q, so I'd opt either for the other way around (some change to the global draw switching to match the rest) or just for a way in the ui to make the current behavior most clear.

* full screen submenu: I commented on this above, and you won't be surprised that a new "back to menu" icon doesn't make such a large difference for me :-o ... I'd definitely vote for the current trunk menus and I'm confident ml users are smart enough to figure that left/right changes the value w/o an additional <> icon.

* menu key for back: I take this is meant to enable 3rd level submenus? First off, I switched menu with trash, so the "<menu" icon is confusion for this case. And is there really a pressing need for nested submenus? Afaik it's a usability fact that unrolled menus are faster to recognize, at least in web pages. My real issue with the q/menu proposal is that it eliminates the right hand only control, which is one of the few reasons I like my 60d over the Nikon d7000 and the 6d over the 5d3 :-o ... I seldom switch Canon settings (set to trash on my 60d) since these are accessible though the camera's button controls, but I often use the ml menu (set on menu).

Did I overlook any other vital changes you are proposing to implement over the current trunk ui?

Btw: If you could compress the gif as non-progressive it'd be easier to step though it, the tool I found (Animated GIF Frame Extractor) only shows the delta images ... or is there any better tool to manually step through the gif?

scrax

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #137 on: February 08, 2013, 12:08:02 AM »
I'm agree with marsu, why not use the Trash button instead of MENU? If we need to go quickly out of ML from a 2nd or 3rd level we have always halfshutter and that's normal in all other dialogs.
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

wolf

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #138 on: February 08, 2013, 12:43:49 AM »
I think it is strange to open a submenu window with SET and with another pressing of  SET being able change the first value.
So I suggest a [BACK] to the menu entry on top. Pressing SET two times brings you  back again being sure that you didn't accidentally change a value.
Beside that I really think that there are too many different icons which let ML appear more difficult to handle with than it actually is.
 

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #139 on: February 08, 2013, 08:34:56 PM »
That's my problem with how things work. I think it could be better.
Steve Falcon

sutobe

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #140 on: February 08, 2013, 08:46:24 PM »
I like how the UI appears in the actual NB.

Today I tried the My Menu function (which I didn't know it was there lol) and this is definitely a nice addition.

But, and this is just my opinion, I don't really like it's always jumping back to My Menu, either if the camera was turned off or if you leave ML.

Sometimes this is a little bit annoying.

Except for this great work so far
Canon EOS 550D / Canon EF-S 10-22mm 1:3,5-4,5 USM / Canon EF-S 18-55 mm 3.5-5.6 IS / Canon EF-S 55-250mm 4,0-5,6 IS II / Canon EF 50mm 1:1.8 II / Canon Speedlite 430EX II

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #141 on: February 08, 2013, 10:27:24 PM »
Heh, I can't let go. I think people are stuck in their old ways and should try my new idea.
Steve Falcon

scrax

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #142 on: February 09, 2013, 06:23:05 AM »
Since the biggest problem in implementing the new rational UI proposed by stevefal is the quick on/off toggle of items I think that maybe that rational UI is hard to implement because ML lacks a way to quickly enable functions. Something that should be independent from main menu. A sort of function list to only enable them. Maybe that list could be MyMenu, but we need to have a way to show it instead of ML menu, a shotrcut like DISP+Trash in LV/movie or DISPLAY_off+Trash in photo mode (if not possible to get disp press-unpress in this mode) maybe.

That solve the MyMenu always opening problem and also could be the only non rational but pratical part of ML UI, disabled in main menu by default so only user who know and prefer that can have it.

If all that don't make sense, what about implementing the Q/SET rational UI and let user chose what they want from a menu option and then make a pool also, maybe? Is it too complicated?
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

1%

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #143 on: February 09, 2013, 07:36:04 AM »
The one handed operation is a pretty valuable feature. Sometimes features are left on from using the camera like fps override, hdr, etc. Some features only in the submenu like digic gain but valuable for video on the fly. Lefty's are screwed by the design of the entire camera.


Quote
On 60D, SET, Q and MENU

600D/6d menu on the left.

Quote
The benefits of sound, professional design outweigh the cost of one's thumb moving 2 centimeters N times a day. By the way, how many is N? If you say 5, I will say "then no biggie". If you say 500, I will say "then you will surely become good at it."

Fuck that line of thinking, I use the camera to take pictures. I guess this is what I can thank for the flood of gimpy devices I keep having to deal with. Did anyone actually try to use it for what its for? More than 5 mins?

you are right that some things are more habit than anything but those habits arise in "professionally" designed things too.


a1ex

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #144 on: February 09, 2013, 08:20:45 AM »
what about implementing the Q/SET rational UI and let user chose what they want from a menu option and then make a pool also, maybe? Is it too complicated?

Anyone is free to implement it. Good luck modifying all the 80 submenus ;)

Marsu42

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #145 on: February 09, 2013, 11:08:59 AM »
Heh, I can't let go.

I see, and understand your frustration if a concept that has been put up with a lot of love and work doesn't receive instant approval.

However for the sake of matter of fact discussion you might want to put things a little in perspective here - we're all ml enthusiasts and interested in improving it. That's why I'm not a fan of "habituated pattern shared by ML users" or "habit-skewed thought experiments" arguments: if you simply deny the willingness or ability of others to come up with valid assessment in the first place and dismiss them as "platitudes", that's immunization against critique and doesn't allow for any exchange in good faith at all. I would really like to ask you please cut back a little here?

As for "My core proposal has not been tried": Well, implement it and give us a pull request or find a dev that is enthusiastic enough for it to do it, otherwise the discussion has to be centered on your (very nice!) mockups

I caution people about what "expert" or "pro" product implies regarding usability. Well designed professional products should be harder only for the power and control they provide. Unfortunately the refrain, "this is for experts" is used to excuse unnecessarily cryptic design.

Either you misunderstood or wanted to misunderstand: Where exactly did anyone say that a cryptic ui is fine because we're experts? I'm really having a hard time to comment at this at all, but again the difference is that for "pro" shooting speed is imperative even at the cost of a required higher familiarity with the ui - that's why pro camera bodies have buttons all over the place and a Rebel has a touchscreen, another example would be the single-function button layout of "entry" 60d/6d vs. the multi-button layout of "pro" 5d2/5d3.

These two needs cannot be met 100% at the same time, though there are ways to do something like qick access to features otherwise hidden deep in menus.

On the other hand, new users must give the current UI a chance because they have no choice. They/we are certainly confused.

Just out of interest: Who's "we"? Afaik the current ui is only in the latest trunk and there hasn't been a chance for a wider beta testers group to return their experiences, or am I mistaken since I didn't folllow everything here?

You're focused on 2nd order problems. By taking such a strong position on full-screen (sub)menus, it trades away core benefits of a UI platform that must then be explained away as "we don't need that". I'm confident ml users are smart enough to use full-screen submenus.

You're confusing cause and effect - I don't hate fullscreen submenus and am fishing for reasons to support my position, it's the other way around. I see a drawback in speed that has to be overcompensated by a large gain by full screen submenus - and in search of that gain I asked how much 3rd level menus are required, that's not "explaining away".

The other potential gain of full screen submenus is more space, so I was wondering how this gain is used in your mock up - and imho the left/right icon is nice, though imho not vital since it's very intuitive to figure it out. If you're stating that smart users can use full screen submenus, I guess you're not trying to be insulting but are missing the entire point: it's not about smartness, but about speed - and as I stated that my experience with full screen submenus is negative - and not in theory, but in actual practice on my very own camera just as you want it.

BTW I understand that the current left-hand icons do more than show toggle state, but I feel (well, I know) that those icons are vastly, grossly overloaded.

I am absolutely not against improved icons, though of course limited space calls for more integration. However I don't really feel like isolating the matter of fact arguments from your last post to endorse them because for example the "one hand navigation" seems to be mixed with personal sentiments. Reading back the entire thread is a suboptimal option, because many former ideas seem to have been cancelled to it's hard for me to figure out the current proposal except for the latest mockup - and I commented on this.

scrax

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #146 on: February 09, 2013, 04:14:25 PM »
Anyone is free to implement it. Good luck modifying all the 80 submenus ;)

Ok, got it.
Should be easier to have the quick launch menu instead of MyMenu, so.
I'm using ML2.3 for photography with:
EOS 600DML | EOS 400Dplus | EOS 5D MLbeta5- EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro  - EF-S 17-85mm f4-5.6 IS USM - EF 70-200mm f/4 L USM - 580EXII - OsX, PS, LR, RawTherapee, LightZone -no video experience-

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #147 on: February 09, 2013, 06:40:30 PM »
...I would really like to ask you please cut back a little here?

I appreciate your candor and I agree - that language is a turn-off.
Steve Falcon

stevefal

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #148 on: February 09, 2013, 06:45:30 PM »
Still not sure why 3 levels is a problem.
Steve Falcon

Marsu42

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Re: ML UI rationalization
« Reply #149 on: February 09, 2013, 07:21:28 PM »
I appreciate your candor and I agree - that language is a turn-off. I don't know how else to say it besides how I did earlier in the thread.

:-) and thanks in return for saying that - I would expect you to be rather sincere for improving ml or you wouldn't put as much work in it. I do hope we'll find a mutual acceptable approach w/o too much code complexity, though it's inevitable some decisions have to be taken - but afaik this is no time-critical matter and no need to rush, more people might want to try the latest trunk ui and suggest improvements that might very well meet yours.

I do wish that people would consider that they might not object to something in practice as much as they think they will. This can only be determined if they try. Why should they? Because the the benefits I'm trying to promote. The current approach closes doors, and I think unnecessarily.

I think one way to keep everyone happy is to implement a more beginner-friendly ui  - and I very much appreciate beginner's input, it's of course true that long-term ml usage creates some bias though I hope I can reflect it. But at the same time more direct access to critical features has to be added, "My Menu" is a first approach and more key shortcuts outside lv (I hope that's possible) to prevent clicking through menus if under stress while shooting.

I'm not following your point here. I don't disagree with the desire for one-handed operation. Again my confusion is how right-hand use of submenus is being to highly prioritzed when people also argue that submenus are "set and forget".

That's a misunderstanding - imho people (including me) think that *some* submenus are set & forget, but others certainly aren't like bracketing which I change all the time. This is is a bit eased because I could put the vital submenu items in "My Menu", but during the colder season (in Berlin about half of the year :-\) I usually wear gloves - a complete thick glove on the left, and one with fingers cut off on the right. That's why I like right-hand navigation so much, in other situations it's nice, but not essential.

With respect to 60D, I truly don't understand your point regarding one-handed operation, because all the buttons in my proposal are on the right side on that camera. I do want to understand.

Doh, sorry, you're correct and I was confused by your 600d mockup - on 60d/6d there's really no problem with your proposal for me personally. I can understand others with the Rebels though, but now no argument against 3rd level submenus from me :->