Author Topic: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video  (Read 24412 times)

Andy600

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Hi guys,

I've been working for a couple of months developing a new log picture style and Luts. With the tonality of Neutral and similar to Technicolor's Cinestyle PS it brings a little more highlight detail into play when grading.

Super Neutral Log PS will be available soon FREE :)

You can check out something I shot using the PS and 1%'s GOP/ALL-I build of ML for the 600d here:


There is also a couple of links in the comments to download some before/after shots from the movie footage (video stills) and some JPEG comparisons with Cinestyle taken from some RAW images processed in Canon's DPP (note: these are NOT stills from video).

Andy
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

a1ex

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2012, 04:07:11 PM »
Sounds very nice.

Can you post a graph of the response curve? You may use this binary: http://groups.google.com/group/ml-devel/browse_thread/thread/3cad525f7ddec118

but you might have to downgrade to 1.0.1. It shouldn't be any problem, as 2.3 should recognize both firmware versions, in theory (they are identical for ML's point of view, just the checksum differs).

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2012, 04:20:07 PM »
Sounds very nice.

Can you post a graph of the response curve? You may use this binary: http://groups.google.com/group/ml-devel/browse_thread/thread/3cad525f7ddec118

but you might have to downgrade to 1.0.1. It shouldn't be any problem, as 2.3 should recognize both firmware versions, in theory (they are identical for ML's point of view, just the checksum differs).

Hi Alex, yes I'll post a curve asap but obviously remove the nodes. Damn fiddly and time consuming to adjust. I must have made over 100 revisions to get to this point  :-X

Hoping to find a developer who can create a 3rd party PS editor at some point depending on the legalities of that.

I'll check out the new bin. Thanks :)
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a1ex

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2012, 04:24:44 PM »
Well, the bin is fairly old. You can use it to check if the curve matches what you wanted to get, hopefully.

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2012, 04:29:46 PM »
Well, the bin is fairly old. You can use it to check if the curve matches what you wanted to get, hopefully.

I just noticed as you posted your reply lol.

Should be useful. Thanks :)
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Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2012, 04:46:58 PM »
Alex - Sent you a PM here ;)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2012, 10:32:21 AM »
Skin tones and grading with Super Neutral Log PS

I've uploaded 3 stills from Gettin' High
to show how the picture style looks flat, with LUT applied and graded to show how skin tones can look.


Shot 1 - As shot
Shot 2 - with SN Log to REC709 Lut applied
Shot 3 - Graded (only HSL saturation and brightness controls used. No shift in hues)

http://www.sendspace.com/file/uocr0z
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2012, 05:09:08 PM »
Looks good. Going to give it a shot when it comes out.

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2012, 06:08:31 PM »
Looks good. Going to give it a shot when it comes out.

Check PM's ;)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2012, 12:49:49 AM »
Shot a few clips. All the noise really comes out :)

Outdoors I had trouble, image would be too washed out and hard to bring back. The noise was really evident but I'm picking the wrong ISO (kind on purpose). Indoors was another story and lut curve brought back a lot of detail.

Overall its a bit more complicated to use but this probably goes for everything beyond just dropping neutral down a little. When you mess up, you really mess up but when you don't its all winner.

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2012, 01:31:28 AM »
I probably should have mentioned to use the Neutral PS to get correct exposure before recording with the Log PS. I find Neutral profile with contrast at -4 generally works best for this PS. Expose for highlights using the RGB histogram so levels are just about to clip and set zebras at 98-99%. Don't rely on the exposure meter. This will all be in the PDF :)

Re: ISO's and noise. Anything over 800 will look a little noisy but I've had shots up to 1600 that were useable with some NR in post. The Luts should bring noise back under control. Shifting the black point up will reduce the perception of noise in the same way that Cinestyle does but I prefer to have the shadow information available before choosing how to deal with noise.

BTW I just noticed the LUT I included hasn't quite pulled the highlights down enough and there is approximately 1 stop more of detail to be had :) If you have the LUT last in your plugin chain you can use a levels plugin or colorista, Color finesse etc before the LUT to lower the highlights and bring back the information. I'm grading through the LUT (i.e. Log to Linear Lut is last in the chain).
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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2012, 01:44:16 AM »
So  everything after the lut or before? I applied the lut curve first and then graded, is that backwards? It did work much better when I used it as a rec pic style and used neutral for setting exposure.

I need to experiment and learn a bit more but I'm getting good results already. Good call on the black level as that was one of the main complaints with cinestyle.

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2012, 01:54:15 AM »
The LUT should be last with any Denoising and CC applied before it. Technicolor recommend this method for grading Cinestyle with their LUT.


I just stick the LUT on top adjustment layer in AE and then add Color Finesse or Colorista on the footage layers. If I'm letterboxing I usually add a broadcast safe levels too because I like the lower contrast look especially if I add film grain.

BTW I'm grading the demo video in Resolve and pushing the look to show how it holds up. Looks sweet :)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2012, 05:35:19 PM »
A1ex,

I've generated some luma response curves for Super Neutral Log, Cinestyle, Flat Canon Neutral, Cineplus Lightform neutral, Canon Neutral and Canon Standard all with and without HTP. Might be of interest ;)

I didn't use the binary but shot a 0-255 RGB greyscale gradient strip on my calibrated monitor. Exposure settings are identical for each PS. It's not exactly scientific but must be fairly accurate because the Canon curves look very nice. It shows my PS isn't that far off Cinestyle (although that's not exactly what I was trying to achieve). It also shows that Cinestyle can't be a perfect LOG curve.

I wish that damned PSE software was more useable  >:(

Download the curve sheet here: http://www.sendspace.com/file/hn8quv


I don't suppose you found any way of altering a PS contrast to a point lower than -4 in the FW?

Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2012, 05:59:21 PM »
A1ex found sharpening setting of -1... wonder if neutral does go lower. If you're not cutting the black and clipping highlights like cinestyle I'd still call it better.

I've found i have to use *something* .. either marvel's or this. Grading goes much much better. Marvel's is better for out of box, this is better to actually get proper grading done. I use whichever depending on how far I want to modify look in post. Standard styles crush everything. Just dropping neutral doesn't seem to grade well and footage comes out washed out. Doing nothing crushes shadows and they don't seem to come back in post.

While you're not getting extra DR, you're actually recording something instead of black in those shadows. I think canon did it to hide just how much noise you really get, its an eye opener.

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2012, 06:49:18 PM »
I'd still recommend Canon Neutral for very low contrast shots because it's the best way to defeat banding and SN grades easily to match (being based on it). I have flat Neutral PS selected and SN as the REC PS. Easy to toggle on and off depending on the shot.

Marvels is great but I feel I get better results with Cinema or Shutterdown pancake PS when I don't want to grade. I'm learning Resolve so I'm trying to shoot everything flat/log atm.
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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2012, 07:32:20 PM »
The flat is really the best grading starting point. I didn't even know about sundown:

On the site:
Quote
Like to Download!

What next? .exe with yahoo toolbar or ask.com. They're making me mad.

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2012, 09:04:06 PM »
The flat is really the best grading starting point. I didn't even know about sundown:

On the site:
What next? .exe with yahoo toolbar or ask.com. They're making me mad.

Yes, that's a bit annoying but I think you can download without using Facebook. http://shutterdown.com/subscriber-downloads/download-photography-plugins-and-tools/

You need to register though. Tip: http://10minutemail.com/10MinuteMail/index.html ;)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2012, 09:17:42 PM »
Oh man, 10 minute mail is a winner.

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2012, 02:18:25 AM »
Any updates?

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2012, 08:51:20 PM »
Any updates?

Fine tuned the PS highlight roll-off and banding is now as good as bad as Canon Neutral :)

I shot another outdoors test yesterday and I'm very happy with the results. Work commitments have kept me from finishing the guide but I'll probably release the full set of Pic Styles in the next day or so to anyone who wants to try them.

BTW I shot with your latest 600d bin. 90-120mbit with no problems. It really helps in post!
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

kyrobb

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2014, 03:01:15 AM »
Hey Andy! I know this is an old thread, but I was just wondering if there was still a way to get ahold of this picture style?

Andy600

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2014, 03:11:22 AM »
@kyrobb - I think I have it on an old drive somewhere. If I can find it I'll upload it for you but it won't be for a couple of days I'm afraid. Maybe it's time to revisit Picture Styles now that I have better tools available :)
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kyrobb

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2014, 06:22:01 AM »
Thanks a ton man I'm excited to try it out! Do you think a good flat picture style can compete with raw in terms of dynamic range?

dpjpandone

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Re: New LOG Picture style - Super Neutral Log coming soon - watch the video
« Reply #24 on: October 01, 2014, 08:04:33 PM »
Thanks a ton man I'm excited to try it out! Do you think a good flat picture style can compete with raw in terms of dynamic range?

No, there is simply no way 8 bits of data can compete with 14