Lot of grain and noise in the video, and lack of sharpness

[zenny]

Hi,

I am using latest crop_mood build from Danne. I also use fast lens with minimum f1.4, but both in 4.2-4.8 or in 5.2K mode in 14bit with AR of 16:9 or 2:35:1 respectively. I do not use use ISO greater than 400 manual, but use 100-800 for dual iso. Yet both video and pictures are full of noise and grains, and never in focus though focus peaking was right. I tried with both Canon EF-M lenses, EF lenses with the EF-EOSM adapter, M42 lenses with FOTGA M42-EOSM adapter as well as dearly tilt-shift M42-EOSM adapter. Infinity focus remained an issue. Fyi, I am following the recommended configuration @david khoirul and @bilal, yet no go. Maybe I did something wrong. Any inputs appreciated.

Cheers,
/z

[Walter Schulz]

No sample to download -> Guess it must be gremlins.
How is non-Dual-ISO footage looking?
Have you excluded flawed lens?

[Frank7D]

1) Does this happen even when shooting with plenty of light?
2) Have you tried manually focusing by eye to see if footage is still blurry?

[iaburn]

+1 for sample footage, impossible to tell otherwise.
Just checking: did you shot full manual with other cameras before?

If only happens in 3x1 modes, it's normal. Try 1x1 modes if you want sharpness

[zenny]

Thanks to @Walter Schulz, @iaburn and @Frank7D , here comes the images which was filmed with adequate light source with two different lenses, Canon EFM 15-45 and a Meyer Optik 28mm vintage lens with M42 adapter with different settings (1x1 crop and 1x3). All of the pictures below are directly exported from the MLV-app (Ctrl+Shift+E) to png without any modifications of any kind in the MLV-app, fyi.

1x1 4.2K Canon EFM 15-45mm ISO200
https://ibb.co/kxn54CP

1x3 4.2K Canon EFM 15-45mm ISO200 Danne's settings
https://ibb.co/Wt6QgST

1x3 5.2K Canon EFM 15-45mm ISO200
https://ibb.co/3yvqBzH

1x3 5.2K Meyer Optik 28mm ISO200 M42-EOSM adapter
https://ibb.co/zQctgx8

Thus, it renders a lot of noise and grains in all modes. Any input appreciated!

Fyi, @Frank7D and @iaburn, I am new to ML, but has been into manual photography and videography since the last century. So it does not seem like a focus issue, I guess as I also use the Focus Peak of ML.

Thanks and Cheers,
/z

[Walter Schulz]

On my way right now so I have to keep it short.
Let me put it this way: you are using the word "adequate" and you are using it wrong.

[zenny]

On my way right now so I have to keep it short.
Let me put it this way: you are using the word "adequate" and you are using it wrong.

Thanks for your time.

Do you mean that one ought to have a flood of light? Please find attached in daylight cloudy day (in photography a f4 or f5.6 would be adequate with ISO100 film. The shots below are exported directly from the recorded video in 1x1 and 1x3 mode ISO100 respectively.

1x1 4.2k 4:3 ISO100 F2.6
https://ibb.co/q0dg2bG


1x3 4.2k 2:35:1 ISO100 F2.6
https://ibb.co/CPDYNzT

Some additional images with Canon EFM 15-45mm focused to infinity:

1x3
https://ibb.co/Qc9Vt5L
https://ibb.co/Sr51yC2

1x1
https://ibb.co/8718YXP
https://ibb.co/TT02028

I am relying both on the focus peak information, but for such a wide angle lens, I don't think something like 50m away may not need to focus on.

Cheers,

Thanks again for your inputs.Cheers,

[iaburn]

I'm just commenting on the 1x1 images, to focus on sharpness.
Both samples (on your second post you swap 1x1 and 1x3) are as sharp as your lens is.
What I notice is that you didn't fix Focus Pixels and that all your samples are too dark, so there will be a lot of color noise.
If you want a moody look but not noisy, expose brighter and turn exposure down in post. Use the histogram to help you with exposure.
You can also apply the chroma noise removal in MLVApp.

[zenny]

I'm just commenting on the 1x1 images, to focus on sharpness.
Both samples (on your second post you swap 1x1 and 1x3) are as sharp as your lens is.
What I notice is that you didn't fix Focus Pixels and that all your samples are too dark, so there will be a lot of color noise.
If you want a moody look but not noisy, expose brighter and turn exposure down in post. Use the histogram to help you with exposure.
You can also apply the chroma noise removal in MLVApp.

Thank you for your extremely useful comment, @iaburn. I shall try accordingly and post back here.

[gabriielangel]

@Zenny, If you want to avoid having a darker image than the camera can handle cleanly, you can use the false colors to help expose properly. This is not a Sony which can record cleanly at ISO 800! Have a look at this image (Click for the animation) The whole white portion was exposed so that it showed the corresponding False Color.

You see that at ISO 100, you can expose above Dark Grey (Charcoal) and have a relatively clean image, but as you bump up ISO, you must expose more to have a noise-free image.
At ISO 200, the noise starts being quite noticeable below Orange and at ISO 400, you need to be above Orange.
Looking at the images you posted, my guess is that most of the frame was exposed around the Cyan region, which is quite noisy.
To get the cleanest image possible, most of the frame should be exposed above the point where noise starts becoming noticeable.

Also, if you want small details like the tree branches in your images to come out sharp, you need to avoid using the 1x3 modes, as those make small details "Mushy".

@iaburn's advice is one to follow. If you need more light, you can use a tripod and use a slower shutter speed, so that you can keep the lenses at smaller apertures for more sharpness.

I did 2 posts on false colors / exposure vs noise here if you're interested:
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?msg=245760
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?msg=245761

[zenny]

@Zenny, If you want to avoid having a darker image than the camera can handle cleanly, you can use the false colors to help expose properly. This is not a Sony which can record cleanly at ISO 800! Have a look at this image (Click for the animation) The whole white portion was exposed so that it showed the corresponding False Color.

You see that at ISO 100, you can expose above Dark Grey (Charcoal) and have a relatively clean image, but as you bump up ISO, you must expose more to have a noise-free image.
At ISO 200, the noise starts being quite noticeable below Orange and at ISO 400, you need to be above Orange.
Looking at the images you posted, my guess is that most of the frame was exposed around the Cyan region, which is quite noisy.
To get the cleanest image possible, most of the frame should be exposed above the point where noise starts becoming noticeable.

Also, if you want small details like the tree branches in your images to come out sharp, you need to avoid using the 1x3 modes, as those make small details "Mushy".

@iaburn's advice is one to follow. If you need more light, you can use a tripod and use a slower shutter speed, so that you can keep the lenses at smaller apertures for more sharpness.

I did 2 posts on false colors / exposure vs noise here if you're interested:
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?msg=245760
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?msg=245761

@gabriielangel This is extremely helpful input. Very enlightening posts on false colors and exposures. 1x1 does not give 4.8K I guess.

Usually I do not go for beyond ISO400 except using dual ISO of ISO100/800. My shutter speed is usually 1/50 for video and variable for photography. I usually try to achieve deep focus and set my aperture to f/8-11 and use a wide lens 10mm to 28mm max, fyi.

Cheers,
/z