Crop mood - WYSIWYG Edition (650D / 700D / EOS M / 100D)

[iaburn]

Was RAW black level set to the correct values? If not it is the reason for green/magenta in dark tones.

I never touch the black/white levels, should I adjust them manually?

[iaburn]

I've uploaded some clips and a receipt for testing here:
https://mega.nz/file/Al0UgbqT#9y4aCkDpeMSbQDEPV5QtHZfIHo9lZo6IGWgb-ptdyzI

Besides the red tone in the shadows, I see some other weird things that maybe the gurus can explain:
- With the provided receipt, the highlight reconstruction in MLVApp cannot get rid of the pink color on the sky on the uncompressed clips, nor the 14 bit lossless, but it does for the other ones.
- The difference between lossless 12 and 14 bits is noticiable in favor of 14bits. On the contrary, the difference between uncompressed 12 and 14 bits is not that big and 12bits looks better.

Edit: I've uploaded another receipt with softer processing to see the difference in a more realistic grade:
https://mega.nz/file/F9sCnbrI#gRfHTUNuTh50qHWWvpNvM8yR7eXXRcI4KqGlSYD6aJo

[masc]

I never touch the black/white levels, should I adjust them manually?

Yes. You must do this for making Highlight Recovery working and for having clean dark tones. The values coming from the cam aren't always correct.

Downloaded your clips: highlight recovery works for all. General dark tone can be made the same for all.

[iaburn]

Yes. You must do this for making Highlight Recovery working and for having clean dark tones. The values coming from the cam aren't always correct.

Downloaded your clips: highlight recovery works for all. General dark tone can be made the same for all.

Let's take the 10 bit lossless. Which black/white level values do you set to make it look like the 10 bit uncompressed?
By default, black level is 2047. If I set it to 2048, the red tone is improved, but the blacks are clipped. If I set it to 2049 it's totally broken.

[masc]

Let's take the 10 bit lossless. Which black/white level values do you set to make it look like the 10 bit uncompressed?
By default, black level is 2047. If I set it to 2048, the red tone is improved, but the blacks are clipped. If I set it to 2049 it's totally broken.

Try 2047,5 or 2048,5 or whatever fits your needs.

[iaburn]

Try 2047,5 or 2048,5 or whatever fits your needs.

I tried but I cannot find a value that will make the shadows on the 10 bits lossless look like the 10 bits uncompressed. I either get the red tone or clipped blacks.

[masc]

I get it close, but not identical. I don't think someone could tell a difference in a real scenary. For more acuracy, more research would be needed, anaysing all the maths - if someone is fan of that, feel free and parse through the thousands of lines of code.

Uncompressed 10bit: 127.3   &    980
Lossless 10bit:          2047.4  &   2913

[iaburn]

I get it close, but not identical. I don't think someone could tell a difference in a real scenary. For more acuracy, more research would be needed, anaysing all the maths - if someone is fan of that, feel free and parse through the thousands of lines of code.

Uncompressed 10bit: 127.3   &    980
Lossless 10bit:          2047.4  &   2913

You cheated a little bit, you changed the black level on the uncompressed to make it more red 

The point I was trying to find is if the so called "lossless" modes are really lossless. If there is no bug on the post processing software as names_are_hard suggested, I think we can say that there is an actual loss of information in the shadows on these modes, which I was not aware off.

Lossless modes are very useful indeed, but it is important to know what the limits and the differences between each mode are, and uncompressed 12bit seems like a winner to me 

[masc]

Tune to whatever you like. You can also make the other version more green, but that cuts dark tones on both.
I don't see a loss of information, and the lj92 algorithm also should not bring any loss. If you see any loss, it might be a curve thing in processing alogithms (black level offset is quite different, so who knows what other paramter is influenced by this). But this can be tweaked with all the sliders and options in processing software.

[vastunghia]

My humble contribution to the discussion:

• On my 5D3 I took a test with 10/12/14 bit uncompressed and 14 bit lossless.
• Then, for each of the 4 videos, I averaged the same number of frames to get rid of random noise in the same way.
• Then I graded to taste the 4 resulting single frames in MLV App.

Does step 2 make any sense? I think it does, but of course would be glad to hear from you.

Here are the results (click to open 100% crop).

14 bit lossless


14 bit uncompressed


12 bit uncompressed


10 bit uncompressed


My personal take-aways (which confirm my initial guess btw):

• I can see no difference between lossless and uncompressed 14 bit
• Already at 12 bit some colors are starting to fall apart and show banding (in particular check the purple patch)
• 10 bit is pure garbage

You can download from here the 4 single frames (MLV files) and the 4 MLV App receipts I used.

Ciao

[bobolee]

My personal take-aways (which confirm my initial guess btw):

• I can see no difference between lossless and uncompressed 14 bit
• Already at 12 bit some colors are starting to fall apart and show banding (in particular check the purple patch)
• 10 bit is pure garbage

Ciao

If I don't remember it wrong，ML used to have the option to chose between the uncompressed raw and lossless raw,but after 2021，Major builds disabled the uncompressed option,I was really disappointed by this move.Why?Because My tests showed for all the builds before the "crop moon",the lossless mode in any bits will get corrupted/pink frames here and there,the uncompressed mode won't produce a single bad frame no matter how long time you shoot.The lossless mode is for recording smaller files and improving the fps/resolution,but even a single bad frame will make the audience think your camera is broken! Lucky I saved the old builds around 2018,If I haven't save the old builds,I will be forced to shoot the lossless corrupt builds,because some of the the old  builds I like was all deleted from the web.To save some cloud spaces?
2023，Here we are,we have the "moon",not only everything is back ,you can't even get a single bad frame no matter how long you shoot-in lossless mode!!I tested myself:14bit lossless,1080p,30fps,with magic zoom for manual focus ,waveform for exposure checking,NP-F970 battery power supply,I recorded 110 GB,around 40 .mins perfect video almost non stop.God bless the developers and our hero!
When other 700 dollar camera users beg for 10bit h264，man !we are talking about 700 dollar 14 bit raw here.
(Cam eosm ,sd card extreme pro 128G 95MB/s)

[Walter Schulz]

?
There are no "major builds" after 2020. No official builds by Jenkins engine and all other builds are custom by people like Levas, Danne, Arczipl(?) and Bilal.

[bobolee]

Sorry,I should say "popular builds ".I also lose a few years of interests on ML.But now ,I'm very excited about it .I will use it to shoot weddings!Get rid of the 8bit h264 washed out ,narrowly spaced rec.709 poops I've ordered a 256GB card and 4TB HDD already,for ML.

[gabriielangel]

My humble contribution to the discussion:

• Then, for each of the 4 videos, I averaged the same number of frames to get rid of random noise in the same way.
• Then I graded to taste the 4 resulting single frames in MLV App.

Does step 2 make any sense? I think it does, but of course would be glad to hear from you.

It does to see clearly any differences in gain, color and contrast.
But the amount of noise and its quality are an important component. When using luts, any instability in the noise will be magnified and usually manifests itself as blotchy uneven color dots dancing all around.
So, if one plans to use luts or lift shadows significantly, 12 and 14bits should be preferred.
If the scene is well lit and there are few shaded areas, overexposing slightly (Without Clipping) and lowering in post makes the latest 11bit lossless quite clean and useful to get 5.2k 1x3 continuous, where 10bit lossless should be avoided as much as possible.

On a side note, Bilal's build is quite tolerant when there are a few clipped highlights (Black when using false colors), whereas the previous builds would stop recording almost immediately.

[davidicharp]

I noticed when I am in photography mode using the latest Bilal's build that when I press the shutter half-way to do a 10x zoom, it won't work when I am on the magnifier screen in 1x mode to adjust for various focus points. I have to leave the magnifier screen for 10x zoom to work. In Danne's build this function worked perfectly without having to leave the magnifier screen. Is there a work around for this?

I am using an EOS M with only manual focus lenses so I don't need this to work in auto focus mode.

[aiyik]

Quick question:

Is there a workaround or a solution for the B&W framing mode (as opposed to LiveView) not being available when using a HDMI monitor (OSEE T5+)?

I tend to use it a lot despite the reduced framerate in cropped framing/non-FRTP modes such as Bilal's and Danne's 3K, and for some reason that function and other functions that are tied to the half-press (Zoom X10, etc) are not available when my monitor is plugged in.

Are there plans to make it useable or is that a limitation of the HDMI output itself?

Thanks!

[vastunghia]

Regarding HDMI out, are you getting correct framing on external monitors with Crop Mood? Not sure I saw this info in this thread.

[aiyik]

Regarding HDMI out, are you getting correct framing on external monitors with Crop Mood? Not sure I saw this info in this thread.

Yes I'm getting correct framing on my monitor with all the modes that have FRTP (refer to Bilal's first post in this thread to see the full list).

(My only issue is that HDMI/my monitor seems to make real-time the only available mode for preview, which is an issue that seems present on other builds too).

[ExitHero]

hey sory i didnt know how to post a qustion..has anyone else experienced black and white for ther preview on the eos m?? and lines in it?? i cant get rid of it unless i go to picture not movie wtf??

[theBilalFakhouri]

ML used to have the option to chose between the uncompressed raw and lossless raw,but after 2021，Major builds disabled the uncompressed option,..

As far as I know Danne hided uncompressed option in his custom builds, all other builds have the uncompressed option.

the lossless mode in any bits will get corrupted/pink frames here and there,the uncompressed mode won't produce a single bad frame no matter how long time you shoot.

That shouldn't happen in lossless too. Show examples where lossless doesn't work and uncompressed works . .
It's more likely you are dealing with a bad video mode configuration in first place.

"crop moon"

"crop mars" please

[theBilalFakhouri]

I noticed when I am in photography mode using the latest Bilal's build that when I press the shutter half-way to do a 10x zoom, it won't work ..

"Customize buttons" in crop mood build only works when "crop mood" is enabled in video mode, also only in x5 mode. It shoudn't work in photo mode (should I make it work there too?).
However, there is already a feature in ML core in "Prefs" tab --> LiveView zoom tweaks --> Zoom on HalfShutter. This will make HalfShutter zoom to x10 from x1 preview in video and photo modes.

[theBilalFakhouri]

Is there a workaround or a solution for the B&W framing mode (as opposed to LiveView) not being available when using a HDMI monitor (OSEE T5+)?

Answerd on Discord:

"Framing" preview was never supported in HDMI, it only works on camera LCD. It's not related to custom builds.
It could be possible to make it work with HDMI though, never tried it.

hey sory i didnt know how to post a qustion..has anyone else experienced black and white for ther preview on the eos m?? and lines in it?? i cant get rid of it unless i go to picture not movie wtf??

Hello, please share a photo as example shows what you mean . . where is the photo wtf ?

[amitkattal]

Could there be an option to have "sticky zoom" on half press shutter. Like press half shutter to go 10x zoom and press half shutter again to go out of zoom.

[2blackbar]

I never touch the black/white levels, should I adjust them manually?

I dont mix 10bt with 12 bit presets, i have separate ones for each bit depth  cause you need to adjust black and white level to get rid of that red tint and get the most out of highlight recovery.
Yes even tho mlvapp has builtin defaults you should always try to test them to get the most despite of what everyone including me says, try to get them close .

[gabriielangel]

And another problem: If I toggle between 2.8K and "Full-Res LV", I get crashes. After restart, Full-Res LV doesn't let me record (stops very quickly with invalid MLV).

Hello,
When trying to use Full-Res LV 1:1, I get a similar problem to what @masc reported, but in my case, I cannot record with Full-Res LV at all, even if I load it first or if I come from the 2.5k preset.
it gets into record mode for less than 1 second then stops. The MLV is empty.
Build is magiclantern-crop_mood.2023Apr18.EOSM202.zip