Author Topic: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser  (Read 2104 times)

ML700D

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"Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« on: February 09, 2022, 05:34:28 AM »

trying to shoot in low light and using RBF denoiser to pull out a bit detail in the shadow.
it's hard but worth trying.
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Skinny

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2022, 07:09:45 AM »
Have you tried uploading the same video to youtube but without denoiser? It will be interesting to compare. I found that youtube heavy compression algorithm acts like a denoiser to some extent :D

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2022, 09:41:43 AM »
oh really.. I'll try then.
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ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2022, 10:02:05 AM »
Have you tried uploading the same video to youtube but without denoiser? It will be interesting to compare. I found that youtube heavy compression algorithm acts like a denoiser to some extent :D
interesting.. 🤔😄

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Skinny

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2022, 03:31:31 PM »
So, what do you think?  :) It will also look better with stabilization, because youtube is especially lazy when some parts of a frame don't move, youtube considers them static and just replaces with permanent picture. and it also increases quality of small details.
This is not scientific or something, just some of my observations. At least now I don't really care about small amounts of noise, in 1080 or less nobody will see it. Or, at least, there is no need for extreme denoising..

masc

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2022, 06:25:20 PM »
For most jobs I think RBF denoiser is good enough. Here my example for 5D3 footage using ISO1000..4000 + Darkframe subtraction + RBF denoiser + YT denoiser ( sry, compression ;) ).
5D3.113 | EOSM.202

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2022, 12:04:17 PM »
So, what do you think?  :) It will also look better with stabilization, because youtube is especially lazy when some parts of a frame don't move, youtube considers them static and just replaces with permanent picture. and it also increases quality of small details.
This is not scientific or something, just some of my observations. At least now I don't really care about small amounts of noise, in 1080 or less nobody will see it. Or, at least, there is no need for extreme denoising..

yes.. you are right.
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ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2022, 12:06:27 PM »
For most jobs I think RBF denoiser is good enough. Here my example for 5D3 footage using ISO1000..4000 + Darkframe subtraction + RBF denoiser + YT denoiser ( sry, compression ;) ).

wow.. impressive masc!

btw what is darkframe subtraction? thanks.
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masc

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2022, 12:37:32 PM »
MLVApp offers to reduce the static noise from your clips using dark frames. https://github.com/ilia3101/MLV-App/wiki#darkframe-subtraction
5D3.113 | EOSM.202

Skinny

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2022, 02:23:40 PM »
@masc those clips look very clean. It is hard to believe they were shoot at 1000-4000 iso. But 5DIII is much better in low light than other ML cameras..
When you first posted this video I also noticed jumping lens flares, so you must be using software stabilization? I thought a gimbal will provide very smooth footage, but how steady it is in reality?

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2022, 02:36:01 PM »
MLVApp offers to reduce the static noise from your clips using dark frames. https://github.com/ilia3101/MLV-App/wiki#darkframe-subtraction

thanks masc.

already subscribed your channel. 🍻
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ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2022, 02:51:59 PM »
in that web said..

Quote
Record with identical settings and identical equipment a clip with lens cap mounted. Some seconds are enough.

masc, do I have to make dark frames every time I change the setting?

e.g. record with iso 800 f/2.8 then I use the same setting with lens cap mounted to make dark frames, then I recorded other with iso 400 f/1.8.
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masc

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2022, 03:17:17 PM »
do I have to make dark frames every time I change the setting?
e.g. record with iso 800 f/2.8 then I use the same setting with lens cap mounted to make dark frames, then I recorded other with iso 400 f/1.8.
Yes. That is correct. It is the only way it can work.

@masc those clips look very clean. It is hard to believe they were shoot at 1000-4000 iso. But 5DIII is much better in low light than other ML cameras..
When you first posted this video I also noticed jumping lens flares, so you must be using software stabilization? I thought a gimbal will provide very smooth footage, but how steady it is in reality?
Yes, 5D3 is much better than EOSM and also a very little bit better than 5D2 in terms of noise.
I stabilize all my footage with FCPX. Without additional digital stabilization in post the footage made with my Weebill S is just unusable. ;) You can't move your hands smooth enough to not have shaky footage. At 16mm it can be okay with some luck, but at 50mm it is very noticable. Maybe this becomes better with IS lenses, but I don't have any to try out.
5D3.113 | EOSM.202

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2022, 03:45:02 PM »
ok. I see, thanks masc.

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ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2022, 03:54:43 PM »
masc!
I noticed weird thing next to that person in your video. what is it masc? 😂

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Skinny

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2022, 06:13:48 PM »
then I use the same setting with lens cap mounted to make dark frames, then I recorded other with iso 400 f/1.8.
and also at the same ambient and camera temperatures, if you can. for example, dark frame made with identical settings but with cold camera is absolutely different than when the camera is working for an hour or so. winter/hot summer conditions also should affect temperatures and noise patterns..

I did some experiments with timelapses (1-2h with 1..1.5fps) and if I record the dark frame before the timelapse, it worked good only with first ~1/3 of a video, and if I did dark frame after the timelapse (when sensor is hot) then the beginning of a video looks bad. So I couldn't decide what darkframe should I use.
But then someone suggested that I can export two video variants with both dark frames, and crossfade between them in editing software. Should work, but I have not tried it yet. Of course, for short clips it is not necessary.

I stabilize all my footage with FCPX. Without additional digital stabilization in post the footage made with my Weebill S is just unusable. ;) You can't move your hands smooth enough to not have shaky footage. At 16mm it can be okay with some luck, but at 50mm it is very noticable. Maybe this becomes better with IS lenses, but I don't have any to try out.
I see.. bad news, I thought if I buy a gimbal someday, then digital stabilization won't be necessary.  :(

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2022, 07:01:29 PM »
and also at the same ambient and camera temperatures, if you can. for example, dark frame made with identical settings but with cold camera is absolutely different than when the camera is working for an hour or so. winter/hot summer conditions also should affect temperatures and noise patterns..

I did some experiments with timelapses (1-2h with 1..1.5fps) and if I record the dark frame before the timelapse, it worked good only with first ~1/3 of a video, and if I did dark frame after the timelapse (when sensor is hot) then the beginning of a video looks bad. So I couldn't decide what darkframe should I use.
But then someone suggested that I can export two video variants with both dark frames, and crossfade between them in editing software. Should work, but I have not tried it yet. Of course, for short clips it is not necessary.

I see.. so basically record dark frames before/after the shoot, right?
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Skinny

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #17 on: February 10, 2022, 07:30:19 PM »
maybe somewhere at the middle, and try what will be looking better

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #18 on: February 10, 2022, 08:25:25 PM »
ok. thanks Skinny
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belalkhansocial

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2022, 05:21:37 PM »
For most jobs I think RBF denoiser is good enough. Here my example for 5D3 footage using ISO1000..4000 + Darkframe subtraction + RBF denoiser + YT denoiser ( sry, compression ;) ).

This is simply beautiful!

Skinny

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #20 on: February 15, 2022, 06:29:07 AM »
found this on youtube...

not bad for 1600-3200 iso eos m :o

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #21 on: February 15, 2022, 08:22:55 AM »
nice.. but what is the process?
for iso 1600 - 3200 in low light will get some noise I think.
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Skinny

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2022, 11:37:25 AM »
from youtube comments:

Quote
Sigma 18-50 f 2.8-4.5
24 fps 1600 (wide angle shots) and 3200 Iso
5kFrtp 16/9 mode (3840/2160) 10bit
Export in Arri log C gamma
Graded in Davinci Resolve 17.4

Chek out this video, I'm use this technique for denoise my footage  https://youtu.be/NKC4Me_2pfY



and he also mentions that he used 1/50 shutter speed all the time, but in reality you can easily get away with 1/40...1/30 or even 1/25 with static shots where you don't see a lot of motion. nobody will really see a difference in motion blur, but for low light 1/25 is just +1 stop of light. could be more important than "proper" shutter angle.

ML700D

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Re: "Dark Matter" - Exploring MLVapp feature RBF denoiser
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2022, 12:10:59 PM »
I see, thanks.
unfortunately DaVinci is heavier than premier on my pc.
I think rbf denoiser is enough for me at the moment.
EOS 700D