Author Topic: Poor quality RAW footage  (Read 2132 times)

AlexRealEstate

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Poor quality RAW footage
« on: July 02, 2020, 04:26:07 PM »
Hi there,

I've been struggling to get good quality RAW footage. My main focus is real estate videography.

My setup is:
- 5D MKIII
- 16 - 35mm 1:2.8 L II USM
- SandDisk Extreme Pro 160MB/s 32GB CF Card

My Canon settings are set to:
-1280 60p
- All-i RAW

My ML settings are set to:
- FPS override 45fps
- 1920 x 648 (1.00x)
- 16:9

My workflow is as follows:
MLVapp convert to CinemaDNG Uncompressed - No editing in MLVapp
Open CinemaDNG with AdobeAfterAffects - Two weird things happen here. Firstly the RAW image looks to be colour graded. Secondly it displays the file as 30fps but its shot in 45fps. If I open the CinemaDNG file in Premier it shows no graded (Bland image) and registers the 45fps.
Render into AVI with GoPro codec.

From here I would then import rendered file into premier for editing and final grading.

My issues are I get quite high noise, from a bit of reading this may be because of under exposure. But my videos look terrible, jagged edges etc.

Here is a rendered clip,
Also notice jagged lines on roof etc?

Thank you for the help!

ilia3101

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2020, 05:37:53 PM »
Firstly the RAW image looks to be colour graded.

How do you expect it to look? What does raw look like? Adobe camera raw has quite a colourful look by default.

If I open the CinemaDNG file in Premier it shows no graded (Bland image) and registers the 45fps.

Premier does not use adobe camera raw processing, it uses something crappier for raw conversion. And every raw conversion software has a different look.

My issues are I get quite high noise, from a bit of reading this may be because of under exposure. But my videos look terrible, jagged edges etc.

High noise is from slightly bad dynamic range of canon cameras and underexposure, use raw zebras for better exposure. And jagged edges should almost never happen on a 5D3.

Is that clip you shared from premiere pro? Have you done adjustments like highlights and shadows? Kind of looks like you have. And it looks really compressed, can't see any detail. You must have uploaded in a really low bitrate. But the clip looks quite good actually, nice colours.

Levas

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2020, 07:48:23 PM »
The jagged edges are there because of the chosen settings:

Quote
My Canon settings are set to:
-1280 60p
My ML settings are set to:
- FPS override 45fps
- 1920 x 648 (1.00x)
- 16:9

To achieve the 60p readout speed, the camera reads every 5th horizontal line of the sensor . (skips 4 lines).
As you can see on the resolution settings, 1920 x 648 (1.00x) you can see you're not actually recording 1080 vertical pixels.
In this mode the 648 pixels are stretched in software to 1080 pixels, MLVapp does this automatically for you.

But there is an experimental build out there, which could improve things here.
Take a look at the experimental build downloadpage:
https://builds.magiclantern.fm/experiments.html
Look for the 5d3 builds under "4K raw video recording; lossless compression"

In the crop_rec module, there is a preset choice for the following recording mode:
1920x1080 @ 45p and 48p (3x3 binning)

This is sort of what you did (1920x1080 at 45fps), but this mode only skips 2 horizontal lines (instead of 4 horizontal lines as standard Canon 60p does).
So in this mode, you are really recording 1080 pixels vertical, so no stretching in post, less jagged edges.
 

AlexRealEstate

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2020, 08:10:25 PM »
How do you expect it to look? What does raw look like? Adobe camera raw has quite a colourful look by default.

Premier does not use adobe camera raw processing, it uses something crappier for raw conversion. And every raw conversion software has a different look.

High noise is from slightly bad dynamic range of canon cameras and underexposure, use raw zebras for better exposure. And jagged edges should almost never happen on a 5D3.

Is that clip you shared from premiere pro? Have you done adjustments like highlights and shadows? Kind of looks like you have. And it looks really compressed, can't see any detail. You must have uploaded in a really low bitrate. But the clip looks quite good actually, nice colours.

Thank you! Seems like the bitrate was my main issue. Herewith another sample... pitty the house isn't in focus :D
This is what I mean with regards to premier being washed out when RAW is imported, and After Effects displays as the above video (no colour correction)


I think alot of my shots were under exposed, which is hard shooting a house in the evening. I didnt want to push the ISO too high. Tried to keep it under 1000.

Thanks for the help. Highly appreciated it.

AlexRealEstate

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2020, 08:13:26 PM »
The jagged edges are there because of the chosen settings:

To achieve the 60p readout speed, the camera reads every 5th horizontal line of the sensor . (skips 4 lines).
As you can see on the resolution settings, 1920 x 648 (1.00x) you can see you're not actually recording 1080 vertical pixels.
In this mode the 648 pixels are stretched in software to 1080 pixels, MLVapp does this automatically for you.

But there is an experimental build out there, which could improve things here.
Take a look at the experimental build downloadpage:
https://builds.magiclantern.fm/experiments.html
Look for the 5d3 builds under "4K raw video recording; lossless compression"

In the crop_rec module, there is a preset choice for the following recording mode:
1920x1080 @ 45p and 48p (3x3 binning)

This is sort of what you did (1920x1080 at 45fps), but this mode only skips 2 horizontal lines (instead of 4 horizontal lines as standard Canon 60p does).
So in this mode, you are really recording 1080 pixels vertical, so no stretching in post, less jagged edges.

Thank you for this valuable information.

The only reason I wanted to shoot at higher frames is to allow me some level of control to slow my shots somewhat. I will give this build a try. Sounds promising!

I've been photographing for the last year and a big and have only just delved into film... So this is all very new and I've tried to youtube and google as much as possible!

AlexRealEstate

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2020, 08:22:42 PM »
Sorry for multiple posts I can't seem to edit.

Any idea why after affects is reading my files as 30fps and premier will read them at 45fps?

Kharak

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2020, 11:18:11 AM »
Your biggest problem is using Premiere. The raw processing is really bad in that program.
once you go raw you never go back

allemyr

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2020, 10:26:37 PM »
High noise is not only about ISO and exposure I think different types of grading and raise shadows much can introduce a lot of noise, different components affect noise in different ways. I think he uses ACR in After Effects right now

Kharak

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #8 on: July 04, 2020, 06:04:14 AM »
Sorry for multiple posts I can't seem to edit.

Any idea why after affects is reading my files as 30fps and premier will read them at 45fps?

You could use the search function of the forum and find answers to everything you've asked in this thread.

But you have to Interpret the FPS in AE. AE will by default interpret any image sequence at 30 fps. For smooth slow mo playback, you should interpret the FPS to your desired Project settings.

EDIT: Also regarding ISO Range. When shooting RAW, the camera only uses the Analog ISO range e.g. 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200. Any ISO value selected between these values, will be rounded to its "parent" ISO e.g. iso 640 = 800, iso 1000 = 800. ISO 1250 = 1600.
once you go raw you never go back

allemyr

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2020, 09:39:56 AM »
And I think it isnt the footage that is wrong as title says. Its the post processing.

AlexRealEstate

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2020, 11:47:42 AM »
Your biggest problem is using Premiere. The raw processing is really bad in that program.

Thank you, I am using Camera Raw in After Effects to edit the raw footages and colour grade etc. Then rendering in Media Encoder.

I had just tested importing directly to Premier which gave me that washed out look.

High noise is not only about ISO and exposure I think different types of grading and raise shadows much can introduce a lot of noise, different components affect noise in different ways. I think he uses ACR in After Effects right now

Correct using ACR. The footage is fairly grainy pre any colour grading. I am tweaking the luminescence to reduce the grain. I think I must try expose higher and darken in post, this is what I've read anyway?

You could use the search function of the forum and find answers to everything you've asked in this thread.

But you have to Interpret the FPS in AE. AE will by default interpret any image sequence at 30 fps. For smooth slow mo playback, you should interpret the FPS to your desired Project settings.

EDIT: Also regarding ISO Range. When shooting RAW, the camera only uses the Analog ISO range e.g. 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200. Any ISO value selected between these values, will be rounded to its "parent" ISO e.g. iso 640 = 800, iso 1000 = 800. ISO 1250 = 1600.


I have been googling and youtubing for the last week. Perhaps because of my limited knowledge on the subject my search parameters have not given me great results.

Thank you for the information. It was just interesting as Premier instantly recognises the RAW as 45fps and AE recognised as 30fps (now I know it does this by default)... Interestingly when I interpret fps to 45fps in AE and then render in media encoder, media encoder is rendering at 50fps... there doesn't seem an option to render at 45fps.

Thank you for the info regarding analog ISO.

I wouldn't have dared delve into shooting RAW. However like with shooting RAW photos it gives me the option to tone down over exposed windows although to a lesser degree, with out added lighting and flashes.

And I think it isnt the footage that is wrong as title says. Its the post processing.

I do agree most of my issues were in post. But I do think the linear lines of architecture show the stretch like Levas has mentioned.

I have rendered all my footage will edit it in premier tonight and share tomorrow.

allemyr

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2020, 12:30:52 PM »
I do agree most of my issues were in post. But I do think the linear lines of architecture show the stretch like Levas has mentioned.

Yes its less then 1080px, but it depends on what interpolate settings you use for upscale to 1080p height.

I think you can get smooth result and think those architecture lines is postprocessing issue to.

AlexRealEstate

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2020, 04:53:30 PM »
Thanks, not sure what interpolate settings are but I will look into it.

Anyway here is the video:
Something is still not 100% correct. But it is my 3rd or 4th video I've ever made and its my first shooting in RAW and exploring RAW. So I am fairly happy with the results.

Critique is encouraged!

IDA_ML

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2020, 10:12:01 AM »
Why don't you ask 70MM13 for some help.  He has a lot of experience with squeezing every drop of quality out of low-light scenes like yours and has come up with fantastic results. 

allemyr

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2020, 10:20:55 AM »
Thanks, not sure what interpolate settings are but I will look into it.

Anyway here is the video:
Something is still not 100% correct. But it is my 3rd or 4th video I've ever made and its my first shooting in RAW and exploring RAW. So I am fairly happy with the results.

Critique is encouraged!

Colors looks fantastic and so do movement from gimbal. I like the look!

I checked yesterday how to upscale slow motion footage in ACR but didnt find any solution everything had the same pixel ratio after ACR, I think your best bet is to do the vertical upscale in the debayer process and as early as possible, and check different interpolation settings.

Hope you find a solution I work with Resolve myself and there its no problem to get good quality upscale on slowmotion footage. Hope you are gonna show the video somewhere else because 1080p Youtube is crappy.

Anyway colors and everything else looks fantastic good luck!

AlexRealEstate

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2020, 09:32:30 AM »
Why don't you ask 70MM13 for some help.  He has a lot of experience with squeezing every drop of quality out of low-light scenes like yours and has come up with fantastic results. 

Will have a look for him and drop him a message. Thank you!

Colors looks fantastic and so do movement from gimbal. I like the look!

I checked yesterday how to upscale slow motion footage in ACR but didnt find any solution everything had the same pixel ratio after ACR, I think your best bet is to do the vertical upscale in the debayer process and as early as possible, and check different interpolation settings.

Hope you find a solution I work with Resolve myself and there its no problem to get good quality upscale on slowmotion footage. Hope you are gonna show the video somewhere else because 1080p Youtube is crappy.

Anyway colors and everything else looks fantastic good luck!

Unfortunately all our marketing is linked through youtube :D!

Thank you for the help.

I have found out where I stuffed up. In AE when I created the composition to export to ACR, the composition resolution settings were set to half so all my videos are 960 x 540 and then upscaled to 1080p in ACR.

I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. :'(

domo94

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2020, 08:40:55 AM »
Why not just re-export?

AlexRealEstate

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #17 on: September 20, 2020, 08:28:39 AM »
I did end up just re exporting.

Can anyone advise why I get this issue when filming. I am thinking its a shutter a shutter speed issue. In the one shot it is only part of the home which flickers.

Filming at 1080p30
shutter at 1/60
iso at 1600+
aperture at f2.8




Dmytro_ua

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2020, 11:03:01 AM »
Can anyone advise why I get this issue when filming. I am thinking its a shutter a shutter speed issue. In the one shot it is only part of the home which flickers.

Filming at 1080p30
shutter at 1/60

Try 25 fps   1/50.
You have voltage Hz problem. It's not a RAW problem. A basic rule
5d3 1.1.3 exp | Canon 16-35 4.0L | Canon 50 1.4 | Canon 100mm 2.8 macro
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Walter Schulz

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2020, 11:14:44 AM »
Look into those rooms. They do not flicker. If all light sources are powered by AC directly shouldn't there be flicker, too?

Dmytro_ua

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Re: Poor quality RAW footage
« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2020, 11:49:04 AM »
We don't know anything about this building. Maybe those rooms have different power source (solar batteries or whatever), maybe different lamps types (flicker free LED lamps for example).
5d3 1.1.3 exp | Canon 16-35 4.0L | Canon 50 1.4 | Canon 100mm 2.8 macro
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