Author Topic: Looking to the future  (Read 2842 times)

garry23

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Looking to the future
« on: January 18, 2020, 08:02:10 AM »
As many know, the technology in cameras is incredible and many see a far future where 'all' we need do is push one button to gather our photonic data for post processing later, i.e. 'fixing' exposure and focus in post.

Some are already providing us this computational approach, both in cameras and in phones, eg L16 camera, full ISO invariant sensors and the hint that sensors are arriving that will mean highlight saturation will be a thing of the past.

Of course ML developers have been moving us towards the future as well, for example Dual-ISO and scripting to create more intelligent programme modes etc.

For me ML remains a key technology, as it will act as a bridging technology for a long time, i.e. until camera manufactures create the 'right camera'. Thus ML  allows users to elevate their old, non computational cameras, to a higher level of functionality, thus bridging the gap between the past and the future of photography and videography.

Anyway, I thought some may be interested in this F stoppers post that adds to the conversation on the future of cameras.

https://fstoppers.com/originals/aperture-and-shutter-priority-modes-are-dead-its-time-get-rid-them-443813

Luther

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2020, 07:11:58 AM »
For me, any auto mode is useless. But it might be because the companies don't put threshold values. Being able to choose from what-to-what values the camera is restricted to use would make it much more usable. Also, if the auto-mode had decimal control over ISO would help to increase the accuracy for doing auto-ETTR.
Speaking of it, ETTR should be the default in all cameras using auto modes, since they can easily bring exposure down for display previews and compressed images (.jpg's).

garry23

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2020, 08:02:40 AM »
@Luther

I guess the end point of what I was implying is, that in some, not too far distant, future, cameras could be fully auto, as they gather the data to allow you to ‘fix’ the exposure and focus in post.

BTW I’m not advocating this future, as I enjoy the challenge of my photography  :)

IDA_ML

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2020, 01:07:57 PM »
I guess the end point of what I was implying is, that in some, not too far distant, future, cameras could be fully auto, as they gather the data to allow you to ‘fix’ the exposure and focus in post. BTW I’m not advocating this future, as I enjoy the challenge of my photography  :)

If that happens, very soon, people like you, Garry and elderly photographers coming from the film era, will be the only ones who understand how painting with light works. 

Luther

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2020, 10:48:12 AM »
cameras could be fully auto, as they gather the data to allow you to ‘fix’ the exposure and focus in post.
Don't think this will be the case. At least not for professional photographers, because the settings are changed not just to get good exposure, but also to create the artistic effect you want. How would the camera know that you want shallow DOF even if you're in daylight? It won't. How would it know you want to make a long-exposure instead of having 1/1000 shutter speed? It won't.
What it could do, though, is to get the proper exposure and focus to a given scenary, basically what smarphones already do.
- Get shutter speed to the same focal distance of the lens you're using (50mm > 1/50)
- Get ISO as down as possible
- Get the lens wide-open, read the scene and get focus on the main subject.
- Get aperture in the best contrast (according to the MTF data provided)
- Decrease shutter speed until highlights are -1% exposed (ETTR)
- Auto WB
- If it still needs more light, increase aperture. Then, if needed, increase ISO
- Post-processing (normalize exposure, debayer, color conversion, some DCP/3DLUT > JPG compressed file)

The above would give the most sharp and highest SNR photo that the camera can give, but wouldn't account for what you as the photographer wants.

garry23

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2020, 01:31:48 PM »
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How would the camera know that you want shallow DOF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-field_camera  ;)

Computational photography is at an early stage, but moving along fast.

A fun time to be around  :)

But for me, I get the most enjoyment out of ML, eg https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=24762.msg224336;topicseen#msg224336 and CHDK, eg my CHDK version of DOFI that runs really well on my crop sensor G1X and my smaller G7X https://chdk.fandom.com/wiki/Depth_Of_Field_Info_-_Chdk_version

meanwhile

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2020, 02:19:01 PM »
Don't think this will be the case. At least not for professional photographers, because the settings are changed not just to get good exposure, but also to create the artistic effect you want. How would the camera know that you want shallow DOF even if you're in daylight?

It's not hard: you simply tell the camera. The way it works on a Fuji for example is you select the aperture you want on the lens and set shutter speed and iso to auto. And, yes, a lot of pros do shoot that way. Most famously, *the* fashion photographer of the C20th -


..Juergen Teller and Daido Moriyama normally use automated compact cameras in fact.

Luther

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2020, 02:41:14 PM »
It's not hard: you simply tell the camera.
Yes, but @garry23 said "fully auto". Telling the camera what to do is not "fully auto".
Quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-field_camera
You will have to choose the focus in post-production anyway, so not fully auto.

meanwhile

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2020, 12:01:08 AM »
I think you've become trapped in a bad logic loop:

- You're saying that it you tell the camera what aperture you want to use it isn't running in full auto

- And you're complaining that in full auto it won't want to know what aperture you want to use

No. If you've decided what aperture you want to use for aesthetic reasons, tell the camera and it works out ALL the technical details, that's full automation. It's not "program mode" but it is fully automatic - just like if you set cruise control on a car and let the car decide what gear to use and how much gas to feed the engine. "Auto" does not equal "reads the users mind." It simply means the mechanism takes ALL the responsibility for working out the details required to get the end result that the user has specified. In the case of the camera, the user no longer has to understand even what aperture is: he simply has a dial he adjusts to get the dof he wants.

I think it's preposterous to say that a camera operated by someone who doesn't what the exposure triangle is - or even what aperture really is other than "blur" - isn't setting exposure automatically. Because the alternative is that the user is doing it, and this user potentially doesn't even know that there are good or bad exposures. You could paint over the aperture numbers and just write "Blur dial" on the aperture ring - that's how the users is operating the camera.

Or to given another example, when self-driving cars arrived, no one is going to say that they're not fully automatic because you have to tell them where to go, or whether you want to take the fast route or the scenic route...

Luther

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2020, 12:47:22 PM »
Dude, read the article linked in OP. The article already talks about Fuji "auto" functions. The hypothesis in the article is if the camera will have more functions than that and go "fully auto". My answer is: phone cameras already do that, but this will not happen in professional photography. Just that, simple.
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"Auto" does not equal "reads the users mind."
Auto means automate. If you're telling the camera what to do, it's not automated and, by definition, it's not "fully auto".

End of story here, let's move on.

meanwhile

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2020, 03:18:37 PM »
Dude, read the article linked in OP

I wasn't commenting on the story but on your logic.

Quote
...End of story here, let's move on.

Unless you're a mod and a rule has been broken, that isn't really for you to say, is it? In fact, it seems both rude and defensive. Someone has disagreed with you: you can either reply or not. What you can't do - at least with good manners or any hope of getting a positive result - is tell the person who disagrees with you to stop talking.

Audionut

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Re: Looking to the future
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2020, 01:48:13 PM »
I wasn't commenting on the story but on your logic.

There's your problem.  Let's move on!