Author Topic: The 7D still competing!  (Read 1431 times)

LoO93

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The 7D still competing!
« on: August 04, 2018, 12:21:58 PM »
So, this time I tried to bypass the serious amount of YT compression (which is huge w/ 1080p) so I did what is forbidden and upscaled my video to 4K and uploaded it :-X

It really makes a difference! I tried to avoid this upscaling-trick but it's the best solution I've found yet... You can check it out with the previous videos on my account, which look nearly horrible after uploading compared to this one.

Everything was shot on the 7D with a sigma art 35mm in 1738x869 in 14bit at 23,976 fps (some 5x crop clips in 2400*1200), mounted w/ MLVFS, graded in DaVinci, exported to DNxHR 10bit to Premiere and finally exported to h.264 in 4K w/ a CBR of 100mbps.
I again used @wangtrirat workflow to emulate a Arri Alexa look.

Hope you guys enjoy it and I'd be glad to get some feedback!


Thanks again to the magic lantern community for being so awesome and making all of this even possible!

allemyr

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2018, 01:12:20 PM »
"Tried to avoid the upscaling trick" :)

Well glad you finally did it.

It all comes out to this that UHD/4k is better then 1080p at youtube since it gets a quite big difference in bitrate (more then 4 times more ofcourse), Vimeo is pretty good at 1080p tho. 1080p at Youtube is heavily compressed.

IDA_ML

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2018, 04:42:04 PM »
Excellent work, LoO93!  I really enjoyed it!  The idea, the music, the story and this unbelievable filmic look of the old 7D ... Wonderful!

ArcziPL

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2018, 07:41:23 AM »
Very nice video to a good song. Excellent grading. What did you use for stabilizimg shots during panning (e.g. scene with the dog or when you pan to the top of a building)? Any gimbal or tripod?
70D.112 | M50.102 | M.202

50mm1200s

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2018, 09:33:32 AM »
I'm not sure about this upscaling idea... does anyone have a good argument for it?
Using youtube-dl, you can see a increase of 4.2x on the bitrate, comparing the 1080p in h.264 vs the vp9 "4k". But, the resolution is 4 times bigger (not really, just interpolated). Supposing it's linear, you only gain 0.2 MB/s on bitrate. But, it's not linear, as the codec is different (h.264 vs vp9). I don't know if this can be calculated only using bitrates.

On the other hand, the audio quality is for sure much better. Youtube is using opus codec for audio encoding and this can only be used while playing with webm from the DASH manifest, as the normal (non DASH) webm uses vorbis instead of opus.

The YT blog explains some stuff about how the videos are processed, but there's nothing about this upscaling thing.

I think if you use a good interpolation algorithm, like Spline64 or these crazy stuff like Nnedi3, it might be a good idea to upscale, but I don't think this is worth all the additional computational power and bandwidth you'll need to process and upload.

As I work with youtube to upload videos of my clients, this information is important to me. If anyone has any real data (not just the empirical "it's much better duude!!1!"), please link here.

IDA_ML

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2018, 11:29:19 AM »
I'm not sure about this upscaling idea... does anyone have a good argument for it?

No arguments but it is definitely the case.  Give it a try for yourself and you will see.  Many people on the net go through upscaling for one only reason - to preserve the high quality of their videos.  This has something to do with how youtube compresses the originals after upload.  I personally prefer vimeo since it does quite a good job with FHD video directly uploaded in the original FHD resolution.  To me, upscaling is too much hassle.  What I do is to shoot at 2,5 or 3K resolution and scale the video to 2560x1440.  Uploaded to vimeo at that resolution and watched again at that same resolution or FHD, preserves excellent video quality.

allemyr

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2018, 11:46:45 AM »
If think downscaling from UHD/4k was way more common to 1080p, and many talked about a sharper image, maybe mostly because of the sharperning effect when downscaling.

Just take a look yourself between your UHD and 1080p upload, 1080p on youtube is quite terrible for most people.

I just looked at some 4k content on youtube and it always looked good so I tried it myself with upscaling. I've always know that the issue with youtube isnt resolution but the compression. 720p is compressed a lot. 1080p aswell, and UHD is very clear. You can upload a 30gb to youtube without a problem. Vimeo is good but there uploading limits is very low, its 2018 now, not 2010. Removed my Vimeo accout lately infact.

50mm1200s

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2018, 12:41:38 PM »
Give it a try for yourself and you will see.

Just take a look yourself between your UHD and 1080p upload, 1080p on youtube is quite terrible for most people.

Ok, I'll see if I can do some tests. This article tested it and, based on their images, the upscaled is in fact better. But, I downloaded the files using youtube-dl (the same format code, 137) and, examining with ffprobe, the upscaled has less bitrate than the normal (1299 vs 2643 kb/s). I think this guy actually applied a sharpening filter after the interpolation, that's why it looks better.

I find it pathetic that Google does not release more options to professional videomakers using their platform, as many people use it for professional works, including high-end industry (cinema and advertising). I expect AV1 codec to solve that, but it will probably be delayed for more 5 years.
PeerTube could be a thing already :(

allemyr

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2018, 08:24:44 PM »
Now when the thread take another direction then you hoped, I give my thoughts of your video. I started it towards the UHD upscale thing.

Overall its a nice video maybe not exactly my type of song but i think its very nice with subtitles, and the overall idea.

You could work more with your camera movements, its impossible to not get these microshakes when holding a videocamera in your hands if you don't do any digital stabilisation or something else. Those high frequence micro shakes makes the video quite hard to watch sometimes. One might say that thats wanted, and a way of telling a story, but that very far away from a person that has a camera on his shoulder and have some experience using that rig. For my own, I can't watch videos with these micro shakes, I enjoy a video made by a camera operator that are good at using a shoulder rig more then a gimbal shot that doesn't have any life. But this micro, that was something i myself was trying to get rid of as fast i could before buying anoter camera then my Canon 600D.

Grading is good, and enough for most purposes, I see heavy aliasing tho, don't know if that a 7D thing or a combination of 7D and upscaling, embed tho images here to show what i meen.

Two shots after 2:50 have interesting camera movements, the first going around the artist.

Get some camera gear that you like that still makes you free and not limited, but get rid off the camera shakes, keep on shooting and even cooler and better videos with even a greater story will come when continue producing videos.




allemyr

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2018, 08:33:15 PM »
Ok, I'll see if I can do some tests. This article tested it and, based on their images, the upscaled is in fact better. But, I downloaded the files using youtube-dl (the same format code, 137) and, examining with ffprobe, the upscaled has less bitrate than the normal (1299 vs 2643 kb/s). I think this guy actually applied a sharpening filter after the interpolation, that's why it looks better.

I find it pathetic that Google does not release more options to professional videomakers using their platform, as many people use it for professional works, including high-end industry (cinema and advertising). I expect AV1 codec to solve that, but it will probably be delayed for more 5 years.
PeerTube could be a thing already :(

OK so you have to do your own test, or get it on a silver plate?

Its a huge difference between the two 1080p and UHD on youtube. If you wanna dig in the details why it is so go ahead. It could really be anything after uploading to youtube, how youtube process the video to be able to stream it, what encoder they use and settings etc, could really be whatever reason. I guess thats a lot of reading if that information is availible even exists from youtube to read on the internet somewhere. Its like Vimeo, when I used it i always uploaded 1080p Prores 422 videos, even tho Vimeo recommends 5mbit/s videos or something that looked shit after uploading. Prores was crazy clean in comparision. This is a pretty similar issue. I upload upscaled UHD videos thats often 30gb for a 4 minutes clip, after i exported it from Resolve, in a DNxHR UHD 24fps video.

Can't you check other test, do you have to do a statement that you will do a test in a thread, and then never do it, just check out what others do instead?
You might don't do these tests, i don't know but

50mm1200s

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2018, 02:55:03 AM »
Can't you check other test, do you have to do a statement that you will do a test in a thread, and then never do it, just check out what others do instead?
You might don't do these tests, i don't know but

Burden of proof. You guys have been pushing this upscaling thing for months now, you should prove it. I'm trying to find some rational explanation for it, and the data until now does not follow what you are saying.
This doesn't seem a big deal, but you might be spreading bullshit and affecting the workflow of many people. Uploading upscaled videos not just will take much more time to render, but also requires more space consumption and network bandwidth. For professionals working with this platform it is very relevant.
You're in a forum to discuss rationally, not just to show off and do small talk.


Nevermind.

allemyr

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Re: The 7D still competing!
« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2018, 11:37:09 AM »
Burden of proof. You guys have been pushing this upscaling thing for months now, you should prove it. I'm trying to find some rational explanation for it, and the data until now does not follow what you are saying.
This doesn't seem a big deal, but you might be spreading bullshit and affecting the workflow of many people. Uploading upscaled videos not just will take much more time to render, but also requires more space consumption and network bandwidth. For professionals working with this platform it is very relevant.
You're in a forum to discuss rationally, not just to show off and do small talk.

Ok here it comes, I thought you checked the video on my previous post in other threads. Title over image, named so you can follow in your prefered viewer. Look at them at 1:1 / 100% "zoom". Tried to pause every video excatly after 4 seconds, the tram goes by in the distance goes quite fast but hard to match better for same frame.

Viewed on a UHD display from a 4k Youtube upload cropped for users that doesn't have a 4k display.




Viewed on a UHD display from a 1080p upload cropped aswell.




Now you may ask, how do i process these videos with 1080p and UHD? I can say the only difference with the two is that I use the new SuperScale feature in Resolve 15 at 2x and low on both sharpening and noise reduction settings for upscaling. And this is upscaling its not all those that argumentet that 4k is better quality when downscaled at a 1080p then 1080p itself was, there you could gain much by sharpening with downscale. This is upscale! I include offline viewed version, but there won't be this big off a difference at all when viewed offline ofcourse, since Youtube then isn't involved.

Here comes the same image but no crop.

4k




1080p




And i know one will ask for screenshots viewed at 1080p from both the 4k upload and the 1080p upload so here it comes.

4k




1080p




Ofcourse this is compression and and i posted stills, these compression artifacts are even more visible when viewing the videos instead of still. When you have dark parts of the image or any noise Youtube 1080p is very bad and pixelate stuff while Youtube 4k doesn't

UHD/ 4k

1080p

If you want you can read about it, I won't since I believe I won't get any reasonable out of it, I see what I see.

You talk about professional workflows? First off, my advice for people that would like to work with this camera. Get rid off all program and apps, just use a simple MLV to CDNG that doesn't affect the image in anyway, no nothing. No demosaicing no vertical banding fix, no highlight fix. no nothing just plain CDNG files at shot resolution. Then use Resolve 15 Studio, the beta until the 15 is released. You need to apps, a simple MLV app and Resolve thats it. You store your CDNG files, and export from Resolve your end result, thats only one export during the hole workflow. Don't mess around with Adobe. But this is as you said for people that work with it more proffesionaly or more just as a hobby on higher level. Below that you can spend your time however you want, since the focus isn't video making more developing apps. You can't beat Davinci Resolve from BlackMagic even if you put all your availble time in developing that.

Sorry for harsh tone, but if you call this "bullshit" just because its upscaling involved, and then yourself and others have to most complicated workflows with grading here and there, a few exports back and forth doing someparts at many different levels. Did you even check the last video I posted in Adobe Garbage thread? How did the quality looked?