Author Topic: MLV App 1.14 - All in one MLV Video Post Processing App [Windows, Mac and Linux] (Read 1201476 times)

Quentin · « **Reply #4450 on:** October 08, 2020, 02:14:05 PM »

Quote from: masc on October 08, 2020, 01:40:07 PM

Since the feature exists, the parameters never changed. For Reinhard, Gamma is and was always 3.5.
It is and was the default.
You can create your own default with any receipt, which is auto loaded on all MLV imports.

Thank you

Milk and Coffee · « **Reply #4451 on:** October 12, 2020, 03:08:30 AM »

Quote from: masc on October 04, 2020, 11:52:41 AM

Gamma is one variable in the profile equation.
If the MLVApp profile is "Standard", the equation is:
outColor = inColor ^ (1/gamma)
while here gamma is 3.15 by standard. Other profiles are a bit more complicated... And gamma has different values for different profiles (often it is 1.0 as default).

Thanks for all the info MASC!

If I am getting shadow clipping with the standard "BMDFilm" Profile, should I adjust "Exposure" under the "Processing" menus, or adjust "Gamma" under the "Profiles" menus to avoid shadow clipping?

masc · « **Reply #4452 on:** October 12, 2020, 12:40:10 PM »

Quote from: Milk and Coffee on October 12, 2020, 03:08:30 AM

If I am getting shadow clipping with the standard "BMDFilm" Profile, should I adjust "Exposure" under the "Processing" menus, or adjust "Gamma" under the "Profiles" menus to avoid shadow clipping?

I would use Exposure slider. This should fit better to any BMD LUTs. If it is just a starting point for manual correction, I would take whatever looks better.

Thomi · « **Reply #4453 on:** October 13, 2020, 11:14:46 AM »

Hey I was wondering if you could implement something like a dual bayer function into MLVApp. There seems to be the option in programs like RAWTherapee because Amaze doesn't always provide the best values in all areas of a picture.
If you have the time and you would see the benefit in doing so I would really appreciate this!

masc · « **Reply #4454 on:** October 13, 2020, 09:11:18 PM »

@Thomi: yes, I played around with these hybrid debayer options in RAWTherapee. But did you see any advantage? If AMaZE "failed" in my footage, those debayers weren't any better as well. How must the footage look, that this helps? I did not find out. That is, why I stopped getting this into MLVApp a longer time ago.

Thomi · « **Reply #4455 on:** October 13, 2020, 09:47:08 PM »

@masc: I can get behind that, thanks for looking into it!

Another question: In Processing Gamut, should I always use ACES? I found it to give me more room to push Exposure without getting that much artifacts when compared to Rec.709, is that simply because ACES seems to need to be pushed more in relation to Exposure to get the same results as in Rec.709 or is there a real benefit of using ACES?

masc · « **Reply #4456 on:** October 13, 2020, 10:03:23 PM »

You "should" always use, what fits best for you and your process.

Thomi · « **Reply #4457 on:** October 13, 2020, 10:16:20 PM »

Understandable, thank you!

Milk and Coffee · « **Reply #4458 on:** October 15, 2020, 05:34:00 PM »

Quote from: masc on October 12, 2020, 12:40:10 PM

I would use Exposure slider. This should fit better to any BMD LUTs. If it is just a starting point for manual correction, I would take whatever looks better.

Thanks! I notice that the “exposure” slider gives me more contrast than the “gamma” slider. It seems that “gamma” doesn’t alter contrast, but maybe raises the blacks?

If I want to keep processing as similar to what would be encoded out of an actual black magic camera, would the “gamma” slider keep multiple renders ‘consistent’?

I noticed too, that the stock “cineon” profile preset, doesn’t clip. Maybe I just use that from now on? Or should I use “LOG C”?

Why does the “BMD Film” preset want to clip so often?

Thanks again!

Thomi · « **Reply #4459 on:** October 16, 2020, 02:43:42 PM »

Quote from: Thomi on October 13, 2020, 09:47:08 PM

@masc: I can get behind that, thanks for looking into it!

Another question: In Processing Gamut, should I always use ACES? I found it to give me more room to push Exposure without getting that much artifacts when compared to Rec.709, is that simply because ACES seems to need to be pushed more in relation to Exposure to get the same results as in Rec.709 or is there a real benefit of using ACES?

Omg I'm so sorry, I was talking about Exposure, but I did mean Saturation.

masc · « **Reply #4460 on:** October 17, 2020, 11:39:48 AM »

Quote from: Milk and Coffee on October 15, 2020, 05:34:00 PM

Thanks! I notice that the “exposure” slider gives me more contrast than the “gamma” slider. It seems that “gamma” doesn’t alter contrast, but maybe raises the blacks?

The math behind these sliders is very different, so the results are also different.

Quote from: Milk and Coffee on October 15, 2020, 05:34:00 PM

If I want to keep processing as similar to what would be encoded out of an actual black magic camera, would the “gamma” slider keep multiple renders ‘consistent’?

I don't have a black magic camera, so no idea how good this is possible at all. What we did: we realized a way to make Canon MLV footage look very similar between Resolve and MLVApp processing. That does not mean, a black magic camera looks the same.

Quote from: Milk and Coffee on October 15, 2020, 05:34:00 PM

I noticed too, that the stock “cineon” profile preset, doesn’t clip. Maybe I just use that from now on? Or should I use “LOG C”?

Why does the “BMD Film” preset want to clip so often?

No clipping here. No idea what you else do... Some profiles are more flat, some are more contrasty. But you can work with other sliders to prevent from clipping.

Quote from: Thomi on October 16, 2020, 02:43:42 PM

Omg I'm so sorry, I was talking about Exposure, but I did mean Saturation.

The range of ACES is larger than Rec.709. But ACES is displayed on your sRGB monitor as well without any transformation. That means it will look different (less saturated and more flat) with the same settings (apart from this profile). If you transform it back to Rec.709 with at LUT afterwards, it should look the same again. But while correcting, you worked with a larger color range...

Thomi · « **Reply #4461 on:** October 25, 2020, 11:45:14 AM »

Quote from: masc on October 17, 2020, 11:39:48 AM

But while correcting, you worked with a larger color range...

Thank you for pointing me into the right direction, the benefit of working in a larger color space is widely discussed all over the internet and I think I know now a bit more than before. The only thing I am unable to find is a conversion LUT from ACES AP0 to Rec.709, so the colors are not off in the end, but I'm sure a little bit more research will do the trick!

Thomi · « **Reply #4462 on:** October 26, 2020, 03:13:30 PM »

Looking further into this topic I came across OpenColorIO, now I know that it was said in prospect of implementing OCIO here that almost none of the dependencies are needed. I personally know near to nothing about dependencies or programming, but something was said about them here in a presentation on OCIO v2:

Maybe that would make it easier to implement it, once again I don't know anything and I don't want to be pushy, I just want to provide information.
Also in terms of figuring out how OCIO works, there has been a revamp of the documentation in addition to v2, it can be found here:

https://opencolorio.readthedocs.io/en/latest/

I hope this is somewhat useful, have a nice day!

Thomi · « **Reply #4463 on:** October 27, 2020, 11:27:00 PM »

Okay I get dependencies and I get why this is difficult to implement, so I won't bother anyone of you ever again with that stuff. But since I'm trying to get it working and produce some 3D LUTs as ODTs for example from AP0 or AP1 to Rec.709, sRGB or DCI-P3 I want to ask if I should post these LUTs in here just in case they are of use to other people who don't want to rely on other software than MLVApp.
Oh but when in the image processing are LUTs processed in MLVApp?

masc · « **Reply #4464 on:** October 28, 2020, 08:47:28 AM »

OpenColorIO is very far away from how we do our processing, so we found no easy solution how to add it. But feel free to create pull requests, if you get a good soultion for it.
LUTs in MLV are processed near the end of the pipeline:
https://github.com/ilia3101/MLV-App/wiki#processing-a-frame

timbytheriver · « **Reply #4465 on:** October 28, 2020, 01:19:11 PM »

See https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=25440.msg232207;topicseen#msg232207 Gamma shift issues on Mac / NCLC tags

Is it possible for correct metadata colour tags to be added to ProRes output from MLVApp? In ProRes outputs the tags are missing.

Untagged files are at the mercy of being displayed un-colour managed by apps and OS.

masc · « **Reply #4466 on:** October 28, 2020, 01:28:30 PM »

Quote from: timbytheriver on October 28, 2020, 01:19:11 PM

Is it possible for correct metadata colour tags to be added to ProRes output from MLVApp? In ProRes outputs the tags are missing.

Tags are included since a very long time in all ffmpeg created files. It made a huge difference, when we implemented it.
Example from MediaInfo (see last 3 lines):

Code: [Select]

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 4444
Codec ID                                 : ap4h
Duration                                 : 40 ms
Bit rate                                 : 273 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 856 pixels
Height                                   : 1 044 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:4:4
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 5.625
Stream size                              : 1.30 MiB (99%)
Writing library                          : Lavc
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

timbytheriver · « **Reply #4467 on:** October 28, 2020, 02:02:08 PM »

Ah! None of the following exports show these tags (Color primaries, Transfer characteristics, Matrix coefficients) on my Mac with Media Info app (or Finder > Get Info).

422LT
422
422HQ
4444
H264_AppleAV

The only export so far that has tags (1-1-1) is H264_FFMpeg! How strange.

Here's 422 Anatolyi (MLVApp v1.11, OSX Mojave)

masc · « **Reply #4468 on:** October 28, 2020, 02:41:06 PM »

Ah okay... maybe there are some single encoders in ffmpeg not supporting the tags. I tried Kostya ProRes. Anatolyi is very limited. AppleAV is not ffmpeg, so here we have no access on any tags.

Edit: here the tags of Anatolyi 422 export (all 3 tags exist):

Code: [Select]

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422
Codec ID                                 : apcn
Duration                                 : 40 ms
Bit rate                                 : 169 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 856 pixels
Height                                   : 1 044 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 25.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 3.491
Stream size                              : 826 KiB (99%)
Writing library                          : fmpg
Color primaries                          : BT.709
Transfer characteristics                 : BT.709
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

And here Apple 422 (just one tag exists):

Code: [Select]

Video
ID                                       : 1
Format                                   : ProRes
Format version                           : Version 0
Format profile                           : 422
Codec ID                                 : apcn
Duration                                 : 67 ms
Bit rate                                 : 69.4 Mb/s
Width                                    : 1 856 pixels
Height                                   : 1 044 pixels
Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
Frame rate mode                          : Constant
Frame rate                               : 15.000 FPS
Color space                              : YUV
Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:2
Scan type                                : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 2.388
Stream size                              : 565 KiB (98%)
Title                                    : Core Media Video
Writing library                          : Apple
Matrix coefficients                      : BT.709

Edit2: in my latest revision I have an updated ffmpeg. This corrects the tags for Anatolyi.

timbytheriver · « **Reply #4469 on:** October 28, 2020, 02:54:27 PM »

Updated ver1.11 shows me error for 'Transfer Function' dropdown:

masc · « **Reply #4470 on:** October 28, 2020, 03:46:13 PM »

What error do you mean? I don't see any...

timbytheriver · « **Reply #4471 on:** October 28, 2020, 03:53:35 PM »

The 'Transfer Function' is just raw text code. I can't select anything here. Shouldn't it be a dropdown selector?

masc · « **Reply #4472 on:** October 28, 2020, 04:03:11 PM »

Nope. That changed since 1.11. Transfer function now can be defined as you like. With that you can have any transfer function, and not the few predefined ones. Use the preset combo to get the old predefined options as math expression.

timbytheriver · « **Reply #4473 on:** October 28, 2020, 04:07:04 PM »

Oh. Not sure what you mean exactly. How do I restore the 'old' preset values dropdown? I can't write math expressions!

masc · « **Reply #4474 on:** October 28, 2020, 04:13:07 PM »

Look on your screenshot. Select preset from the first combo. Then you'll get the expression for it. The old menu is gone.

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Author Topic: MLV App 1.14 - All in one MLV Video Post Processing App [Windows, Mac and Linux] (Read 1201476 times)