Author Topic: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?  (Read 13428 times)

DavidP

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Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« on: March 23, 2016, 11:18:30 AM »
The other day out of about 200 shots, 2 of them were dodgy, one had pink lines, another looked like it had turned into a jig saw... wierd! Anyway my point is, is there some build that is 99.9% stable and wont give you these fucked up shots, after you have shot them? Or is it unfortunately only good for stuff you can re-shoot.

KelvinK

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 03:36:26 PM »
It's random staff. So, no.
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mothaibaphoto

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 04:14:01 PM »
What?
Calculating machines produce random stuff on its own?
If I find myself in need to reshoot, I consider this as my personal failure.

DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 04:30:32 PM »
It's not about who's failure it is, what I'm asking is will the raw hack consistantly be stable with any certain settings? From further reading I see using overlays tends to cause the odd pink frame but the odd frame you cant afford sometimes.

So is there a reliable way to use the raw feature for things such as weddings and interviews that you know isnt gonna glitch out when you get it on the editing table?


axelcine

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 05:28:30 PM »
Which 5d3? Firmware 113 or 123? Shooting which brand of raw? MLV or MLVlite or the original Raw '1' Card quality? Overlays on/off?
Before shooting anything important you'd be expected to test, test and test again your procedures. Your cards, sound (external hopefully?) Like an aircraft pilot you don't go solo without a ballast of experience.
My 5d3 makes 1920/1080/14bit/24p without a glitch with a fast card, x1066. The hardware delivers 89+ MB on the output card port. So...?
Take a look at 'Share your videos' and see what other people accomplish with ML Raw.
To see what your precious 5d3 can do look at http://rbrune.github.io/mlraw/. And have a nice easter.
EOS RP, 5dIII.113/Batt.grip, 5dIII.123, 700d/Batt.Grip/VF4 viewfinder + a truckload of new and older Canon L, Sigma and Tamron glass

DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 05:33:10 PM »
Thanks Axelcine that's all I wanted to know, so some of you are having streamlined experiences so it's my setup!

I shot this video just on the weekend:

MLV Raw, 113, overlays on. Out of about 240 shots, 1 had pink lines going through it, one looked like it was being sliced by a knife and actually another had a missing frame. Not bad but not good enough for stuff you cant re-shoot!

So it is MLV Raw that isn't so stable? Or just when you use it with overlays from what some reports were saying?

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2016, 06:19:45 PM »
Did you use focus peak? Which CF card were you using? Did you set it into exFAT? Which Nightly did you use for 113?
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DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2016, 06:27:10 PM »
no focus peaking, Sandisk extreme pro 64 gb.

Nightly 2016.Jan14 5d3113

Card was formatted to exFat on my pc.

Actually, Global Draw was Off
Use Srm Job Memory On
Extra Hacks: On
Fix Black Level: On

Was recording sound using mlvsound also.

File_man ok
MLV_play OK
MLV Rec OK
MLVSND ok

One possibility, I was starting and stopping recording pretty frequently. Would that be known to cause it? Cause I had so much to record I was quickly recording a few seconds then deleting it if it wasnt good before recording the next few.


DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2016, 07:26:27 PM »
One question for now ... Care to explain why would you use Fix Black Level to ON for 5D3? I personally never use this feature. It isn't needed afaik.

Secondly, I also question your CF card (does it have the gold cover) with "120MBs write speeds" on it?
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DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2016, 07:45:08 PM »
Honestly having fix black level on was an accident! Maybe thats a possible culprit? The card is a sandisk  64 gb extreme pro, 160 mbs.

axelcine

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2016, 08:00:37 PM »
Hey, DavidP, was absent from computer for a short while. Excellent film you made, more than excellent use of existing light, your cam position is not always optimal, but nevertheless you suck an enormous amount of action out of it. Wow, one of the better films to be brought to this forum. You certainly set the bar high for what I hope to achieve. So I understand, that pinks are totally annoying.

And... DeafEyeJedi may be on to something.
Card speed is best determined by benchmark in-cam. Go to debug menu, remember to benchmark in 'play' mode, test your card. The "official" markings are read speeds, not write speeds - and by the way I don't know if pinks have anything to do with card speed, but nobody seem to count it out. Pinks happens so often, that there are several threads in this universe dealing with them.
But then again... Cam makes pinks, recovers and continues as if nothing happened. There are a lot of variables; which one sets off the pinks? or which combination? A1ex and many other of the most insightful guys have tried to recreate the precise conditions for pinks, not only with 5d3 but with several cams, and to the best of my knowledge haven't found a common denominator yet.
I'm rather green in this environment and I'm still experimenting with my (new) 5d, and the settings I mentioned above have worked so far. but I also shut off all irrelevant modules and features (and probably more than necessary), so I don't know if there is a culprit hidden somewhere.

Base line:
Go ahead. Use ML for pro jobs - you're doing a helluva good job with it already, color and effects are yummy. If there is a pink spark somewhere, let it be. Check footage every once in a while if at all possible - and have a good buddy with a cam2 running for really important work. The chance that cam2 has a pink at the exact same spot is nil. So splicing cam2 in is just like having... er? a cam2!!!!!
EOS RP, 5dIII.113/Batt.grip, 5dIII.123, 700d/Batt.Grip/VF4 viewfinder + a truckload of new and older Canon L, Sigma and Tamron glass

DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2016, 08:07:37 PM »
Thanks for the kind words Axelcine! Glad you liked the film and yeh, I was one man with my camera ringside looking like a photographer, didnt get much respect and was constantly being dragged out of the way! So not an easy place to get the shots you want!

Unfortunately its not just pink frames but an entire shot as well as one that was just jumping all over, i'll upload it now so you guys can see! I'm debating if I should get the mini ursa 4.6k actually, well in fact I've decided on it but the ordering time is going to take so long that I'm seeing how viable this is :)

The worst offending clips:
0ad2aa0760

DeafEyeJedi

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Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2016, 08:31:39 PM »
Very well said @axelcine and if I may be on to something in regards to that particular CF card ... I only asked because I own a few of these:



and it doesn't work well with my 5D3 (corrupted pink frames every now and then) which isn't what you have, right?

I'm assuming you have this one to be exact:



If so? Then I'm afraid it should be fine on your end (unless you can provide us your BM results -- please do if you have time) but I think it should be good enough.

However, because I'm usually broke as a joke (despite of how many jobs I've actually shot in RAW/MLV on gigs) been getting better luck with KomputerBay 128GB 1066x CF cards on my end. I own a few of them and in fact I just ordered a bundle of 4 more from Amazon which will be shipping in soon.

BTW, if I haven't mentioned yet ... I enjoyed your film and indeed it is actually incredible for a first timer shooting in RAW with a 5D3 and let alone to make it pop like that with your color grading skills is rather excellent and spot on.

Please don't let BlackMagic drift you away from us whom have dedicated our time (for good reasons) to make sure that everyone gets the most out of their Canon DSLR's running ML.
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DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2016, 08:52:02 PM »
Yes I'm using the latter, the fastest one! Thanks again for your kind words on my film :) It's not my first time using it mind although I've only done a couple of small jobs with it and would like to either invest more into it (more cards) or move up a bit. Problem is when people are hiring me trying to explain I have a hacked camera that their editor doesn't understand... Or if they know of it their scared it's not reliable which is my fear right now! I just shot a a series of hotel videos for a chain and during the course of a week and a half I gradually convinced my director how awesome and reliable it was so he let me use it on some hero shots, sunsets and cropped zoom shots! Pretty awesome being able to zoom 3x into the sunset and film it in raw! If I can get it running 100% stable I might rig it up more instead and just advertise a 14bit raw 4:4:4 camera not saying what it is :P

I'm reading MLV is unfortunately causing lots of people the dodgy frames so fingers crossed the MLV lite comes out with sound...

0ad2aa0760 bastard shots

axelcine

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2016, 09:08:34 PM »
David, I'd give an arm and a couple legs for the Blackmagic supercam, but I'm afraid that I'd lose a lot of spontaneity and readiness. Super-35 though ef'fed isn't fullframe, so the Canon lenses you are used to, yield a little less on the wide side. The BM marvel costs $5K, the 5d around 2.5.

The Vimeo footage you sent us starts dramatically, and then something happens. Maybe DeafEyeJedi you can help me out, but the last part of the footage sure looks like shutter rolling - like a rotating shutter cuts a picture pattern into something like minced meat. Certainly not uncommon with digicams. Are we on to something here? Shutter??? I think I remember we have a setting for something like that somewhere...? Could the shutter make pinkies?

If you give yourself one month to test ML/5d3 to the limits, I think you'll learn to love it even more than you do now - your wellmade film proves that you already do, having to fight snot, sweat and tears to get your footage - 14 bit color depth with full HD from an ordinary cam!!!

And then perhaps a pinky pattern will show up with conditions, that create pinks. The ML crew is working full-bore to find solutions. And as I said, DeafEyeJedi has a valid point - and he is one of the most professional ML users I have ever heard about. I am totally confident, that he'll trust ML for pro work, if not with his own life, then the life of his - er... dog...?

And --- BM comes without Magic Lantern.

BTW - I noticed that you too saw the wonderful photo from France (Magiclanterner)...
EOS RP, 5dIII.113/Batt.grip, 5dIII.123, 700d/Batt.Grip/VF4 viewfinder + a truckload of new and older Canon L, Sigma and Tamron glass

DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2016, 09:29:42 PM »
Well I'll likely keep the mk iii and at the very least use it as a B cam. I'm sure it will cut well with the ursa raw. I just dont wanna invest too much more in it as an age of 4k is coming in, even though we know its not needed, competitors are saying they have it (shit 8 bit sonys) and potential clients are buying it. So I'd rather say I have a 4.6k, 120 frames per second RAW Cinematic BEAST that uses sony a7s's to wipe its ass!

P.s another annoying problem is the index messing up when you delete a file sometimes so then you cant view your files and cant delete in camera! P.s yes that photo was quite beautiful! Makes me want to go and play with mine in the morning!

axelcine

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2016, 10:09:35 PM »
David, I'm a little nervous that I've used ML more or less as a chat room today, but really, it has been extremely refreshing, and not least from seeing your Sinbi Night Highlights - that just made my day. And I sure stand by what I wrote about checking the shutter for causes for pinkies. Admitted: I'm no expert.

But you're right. 4K is coming, but I can assure you, that in the European area 2-3K/14bit will be the big animal for the next couple of years. Markets have their own redundancy. As a professional you'll have to wait for the TV broadcasting companies to turn to 4K; in Europe  only a handful are prepared for 4K at the coming Olympic Games, and in my country Denmark only 1 or 2. Maybe in 2018-19??? TV sets in people's homes are still mostly 1600/900 or (hopefully) 1920/1080, no matter the size of the screen.

Some time ago, in January, we saw this little marvel of a film, wonderfully filmed and very delicately beefed up in post to 3.5K: http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=16439.0

baccinoluigi took a helluva effort and time to make this, but isn't it just like looking out through your window? 5D3 at its best!!!
EOS RP, 5dIII.113/Batt.grip, 5dIII.123, 700d/Batt.Grip/VF4 viewfinder + a truckload of new and older Canon L, Sigma and Tamron glass

mothaibaphoto

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2016, 03:00:08 AM »
@DavidP
Your film is great, i personally don't like violence, but was impressed by elephant procession at ayutthaya muay thai camp i accidentally visited past year:)
On theme: that elusive Joe pink frames are here for long time, some people suffering, some not, nobody knows exactly what causes this issue. Try to shoot with "Idle" present under record icon. Your "bastard" shot is just a rolling shutter and / or warp stabiliser artifacts. Pan your camera smooth and be careful with stabilisers in post.

hjfilmspeed

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2016, 05:11:03 AM »
I was having some pink frame issues too. I use the same modules as you and what really got rid of the frames for me was returning the MLV menu to its defaults making sure global draw gets disabled durning recording. I also format my cards exFat and alow larger then 4 GBs file recording. That was the only thing I think I chnaged in the MLV menu. Yes it's hard to frame right but I did 2 full  projects without one bad frame or clip. I can't say this will work for everyone tho. 1920x1080 23.976 fps . I used 128 GB Lexar 1066x CF cards and 64GB 1000x Komputerbay cards. Hope this helps.

DeafEyeJedi

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Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2016, 08:28:26 AM »
@DavidP -- mind if I ask you what was your shutter speed set at during that 'bastard' shot?

Thanks @axelcine but TBH I am just as green as you all are. Far from being a ML professional. Appreciate your encouragements and I feel flattered but I'm far from one and yet that's my dream to convince as many doubters as possible in what we all can achieve with our little so called toys.

Yes, I've previously had so many of those conversations in the past with Clients/Editors/Producers over the years in regards to the ML hack. I don't even use that word around them anymore because it just scares them off.

Quite annoying and I've learned just to be humble and simply ask them which codec/format do you want them to be digested to?

Because from MLV/RAW you can pretty much render and export them to literally anything and with decent fast CF cards and proper settings within ML to suit your needs without risking yourself of those so called bastard moments then everything will be all right.

I actually love that feeling of being "burlesqued" by other big boys with their Sony's, Arri's or even Blackmagic's. Because most if not all have absolutely no idea how much ML makes us all not only better videographers/photographers but shoot with extreme confident. That's the key with this project of ours. In other words ... Less is More!

After all at the end of the day our clients will never know how the hell did we achieve & deliver those fabulous 5x crop-mode shots in 2.5K or let alone 3.2K from our little so called toys. So clean and yet appetizing!

Now that's our secret sauce, right?
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DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2016, 09:21:15 AM »
@Axelcine

Yeh I get you on the 4k department and agree its not needed but unfortunately competitors even are saying they have it so clients believe their better. In this day and age to stay competitive I think you need it but if I'm going to get it I want it to be proper, not shit sony 8bit codec like everyone else!

@hjfilmspeed

Will look into that, cheers for the tips :)

@mothaiphoto

No post processing other than colour but maybe it is rolling shutter but must be the worst case ever and the fact its moving up and down... and rolling shutter is horizontal?

@DeafEyeJedi

Shutter was at 50th, fps 24. Ive still got more life in this beast yet im sure! When you need something small and powerful, cant be beaten!


DeafEyeJedi

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Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #21 on: March 24, 2016, 09:41:50 AM »
And double checking ... You sure you enabled exFAT on within the ML menu under Video? Even tho you did exFAT'ed them in PC but still need to do this extra step in 5D3 to make it more fluid.

Also I like to shoot @ 1/120th for 24p to get sharper images. I think they come out a bit crisper. Jm2c.
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DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #22 on: March 24, 2016, 09:45:22 AM »
yep, 100%

Ilyuhaid

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #23 on: March 24, 2016, 09:28:19 PM »
DavidP i was very impressed by quality of you video, tell please what lenses did you use For it. Sorry for my english and off topic

DavidP

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Re: Is 5d MKIII Raw stable enough for professional use?
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2016, 05:13:12 PM »
Thankyou so much, makes me feel almost like I don't need to invest more with such kind words!

So my equipment for the evening was:

small tripod
zoom h6 mic with a line straight into the camera
100 2.8 IS Canon Macro Lense
50 1.4 sigma art
24 1.4 sigma art

Thats it, travelled small and light! Im starting to do away with jibs, sliders etc in place of nicely composed static shots. Get a lot more done that way!