Author Topic: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.  (Read 28228 times)

hankki

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30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« on: April 10, 2015, 01:21:37 AM »
I use 30 frames because in theory it's better..isn't it? More frames per sec??
So, why use 24? Isn't 30 much smoother and is better for slow motion?

chmee

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #1 on: April 10, 2015, 10:19:27 AM »
is slowmotion needed in every shot? see it as an advantage to record "only" in 24fps.

* less datarate (with same resolution)
* higher resolution (with same datarate)
* more cinema-like because of the known filmic behaviour

but thats all quite subjective - use as you want. in germany i dont really need 30fps, i'd use 25fps.

regards chmee

Levas

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #2 on: April 10, 2015, 10:34:17 AM »
24fps is the cinema standard.
25fps is the standard in PAL region countries
30fps is the standard NTSC and SECAM region countries.

With the old tube TV's. Stuff was synced/controlled by the frequency of the power network.
PAL region has 50Hz power network(50 interlaced fields, or 25 fps), NTCS has 60Hz power network(60 interlaced fields, or 30fps).

Today most flatscreens TV's can probably play all frame rates, just like your computer does.
But still I use 25fps because I live in PAL region.
Would I live in Amerika, I probably use 30fps...

Why not use 24 fps, because I don't see my movies end up in cinema  :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL_region#/media/File:PAL-NTSC-SECAM.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_rate


chmee

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #3 on: April 10, 2015, 10:59:22 AM »
22-24fps is kind of limit to see a sequence of pictures as an organic animation. i dont see my videos in cinema as well - but as its on tv its in cinema as well - they re playing 24,25,30 as well. so finally there s no real argument pro or against 24fps. its up to you and your designated style. if you want to do slowmotions - 24 is the wrong choice for the recordings, but it could be the right one for the playout :)

example:
30fps played out on 24fps = 80% slowmo (looks more like a wrong speed than a slowmo)
48fps played out on 30fps = 62.5%
48fps played out on 24fps = 50%
60fps played out on 24fps = 40% (thats, if i want slowmo with canon-dslr, 60fps 720p on 24fps playout-video)

another argument pro 24fps: you can lower the shutterspeed to 1/48s or 1/50s if theres lack of light.

regards chmee

ansius

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #4 on: April 10, 2015, 09:02:59 PM »
Frame rate should be chosen by the format to deliver, second to that by the technical reasoning.

* motion smoothness is not just the frame rate,  it is also the shutter length. In general
* lower frame rate, gives benefit of quality for individual frame, more data for it.

I live in PAL world, but do shoot 29.97 because I want to have just a smoother feel, especially for music videos.
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theartofweb

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #5 on: April 11, 2015, 02:17:27 PM »
Quote
I live in PAL world, but do shoot 29.97 because I want to have just a smoother feel, especially for music videos.

That's what I was going to ask; for music video (to be publish on youtube) why choose 30fps over 25fps?

Also, for a music video would you set the shutter speed at 180 degree or lower?

Thanks

Levas

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2015, 03:53:54 PM »
I expect he's recording in 29,97fps/30fps, but throwing it on a 25fps timeline for output, that way he get's a subtile slowmotion effect.
That way it creates smoothness, also less shaky if you're doing handheld recording.



theartofweb

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #7 on: April 11, 2015, 06:09:26 PM »
Come to think of it, too bad I can's shoot at 30fps on the 5d2 (max is 27 or something)

reddeercity

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #8 on: April 11, 2015, 07:22:41 PM »
Come to think of it, too bad I can's shoot at 30fps on the 5d2 (max is 27 or something)
What are you Talking About?
5D2 Dose 30p just Fine! , Just not Continuous Like 24p @ Max resolution
You need to learn about Magic Lantern and 5D2, Some thing tell me you my not understand what the 5D2 Can do.

ansius

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #9 on: April 11, 2015, 07:51:36 PM »
yes, what I meant was shooting 29.97 and conforming it to 25, like we did here -
(shot on Sony PMW-EX1 with Letus DOF adapter and P+S primes @29.97 fps)

I also have shot 60fps and slowed it to 24fps for epicness -

Shutter angle should be kept 180* or 1/2 from frame rate because that is what our ayes are used to in cinema because most of the cameras are like that, longer ones are smother but also fast motions get to blurry, if you will stabilize you might one shorter - because, even if you can stabilize the footage it would like twitch blur and that is not nice.

I'm really against the high frame rate craziness promoted by mostly equipment producers, 60p looks like tv sports program, where it suits, but not for art. I really disliked the 48fps Hobbit, it relay looked like computer game hyper real. I love the smoothness of 24 (or 23.97) cinema,  high frame rates make the footage look cheep, tv like, does not help when you want the viewer to engage the story. Only benefit is in 3D where ayes are not getting so tired, but that's is only pro I see.

What I wanted to say, it is more a creative decision than technical one. In cinema frame rate is just an other tool for expression, for example fight scenes often use overcrank and undrcrank. You should choose that what would fit you delivery format (cinema, youtube, TV (if I know that it would go to tv here as some have - it's 25 then) and mood you want to set.
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theartofweb

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #10 on: April 11, 2015, 11:32:23 PM »
Quote
5D2 Dose 30p just Fine! , Just not Continuous Like 24p @ Max resolution

In Canon firmware I set Movie Rec. size to 1920x1080 25fps in liveview/movie funct tab. In ML I set 1600x680 at 2.35:1 and FPS override to 30 (optimize for exact FPS). Yet, the actual FPS is 27.173 how can I get it to 30fps?

reddeercity

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #11 on: April 12, 2015, 02:29:46 AM »
Set 30p in the Canon Menu with NSTC, That Simple.
There really no need to use PAL, as you can use "Frame Over Ride" to lock to any frame rate.
If I'm Not Mistaking  The Base Timing is 30p and all frame rates are calculated from there .
PAL & NTSC is just for convenience.
Frame rates --> http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=11205.msg108936#msg108936

Just a quick test @30p with my 5D2
Lexar 64GB 1066X-MLV(ver. 2.0)+Audio 1:1 mode
1600*864 29.97p A.R. (1.85:1) continuous @ 69.1MB/s
1600*800 29.97p A.R. (2:1) continuous @64MB/s
1728*786 29.97p A.R. (2.20:1) continuous @67.9MB/s
1792*814 29.97p A.R.(2.20:1) 1956 frames about 55 seconds  @73MB/s
1856*776 29.97p A.R. (2.39:1) 2000 Frames About 60 seconds @72MB/s

1856*928 25p from 30p with frame over ride continuous @71.8MB/s


Original Raw ver. 1.0 1:1Mode
1728*864 29.97p A.R. (2:1) continuous @ 74.6MB/s on Lexar 1066x 64GB
1880*800 29.97p A.R.(2.35:1) continuous @ 75.2 MB/s
1856*844 29.97p A.R.(2.20:1) about 50 seconds  @ 75.3MB/s

3x Crop Mode
1920*818 29.97p A.R.(2.35:1)  @78.5 MB/s continuous
1920*804 29.97p A.R.(2.39:1)  @77.2 MB/s continuous
1856*844 29.97p A.R. (2.20:1) @78.3 MB/s continuous
1728*934 29.97p A.R. (1.85:1) @80.7 MB/s 1:40

23.976p From 30p with Frame over ride enabled 3x crop mode
1920*1038  23.976p A.R. (1.85:1) @79.7MB/s continuous
2048*930   23.976p A.R. (2.20:1) @ 77MB/s continuous
2048*1024 23.976p A.R. (2:1)  @ 83.9MB/s 50 seconds

24p set in canon menu frame over ride set in ML to 23.976p
1880*1016 23.976p A.R. (1.85:1) @ 76.4  MB/s

So as you can see there is many possible different frame rates to work with.
As I said earlier, to need to learn more about your gear




 

Audionut

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #12 on: April 12, 2015, 05:36:42 AM »
There really no need to use PAL, as you can use "Frame Over Ride" to lock to any frame rate.

When I was compiling the list of card speeds, it was noted that higher frame rates in Canon setting resulted in slower speeds.
If you're looking for the last ounce of speed, don't frame override to a slower speed, set that slower speed in Canon menu.

DeafEyeJedi

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30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #13 on: April 12, 2015, 07:28:55 AM »
I second that @Audionut -- it is a bit faster (longer recording times) when override set to higher FPS (w 24p in Canon menu) and is definitely worth every ounce of speed!

Good catch, after all...

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reddeercity

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #14 on: April 12, 2015, 08:48:09 PM »
When I was compiling the list of card speeds, it was noted that higher frame rates in Canon setting resulted in slower speeds.
If you're looking for the last ounce of speed, don't frame override to a slower speed, set that slower speed in Canon menu.
I'll check that out to see if that's right, is this for all camera? or 5D2 ? or just the 5D3. I downloaded the CF card bench for 5d2 and only 2 , one was KB which is not too stable and the other a 800x card which will not tell the real story,
So I will do some benches with Lexar 1066x

But by my quick test from the other day , I did not notice Any differents ether way .
I wonder it that's related to the builds ? just a thought.
 

Audionut

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2015, 02:04:00 AM »
It started as an observation of all the people saying crop mode was slower (30 vs 24).  The biggest difference is between 60 => 24, but the differences are there.



I second that @Audionut -- it is a bit faster (longer recording times) when override set to higher FPS (w 24p in Canon menu) and is definitely worth every ounce of speed!

Never thought of over cranking the fps.  Good idea!

reddeercity

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2015, 03:38:11 AM »
Yea I see ,I did some tests today and 30p is a little slower then 24p
I notice that different builds don't have consistent numbers , there are up & down.
raw ver1.0 benches faster then mlv thou,

Raw first, top ,next one down MLV (MLV ver. 2.0 latest Nightly April 7th 2015) on

5d2_24p_lexar1066x_raw_ver.1.0_bench0 by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr

5d2_24p_lexar1066x_mlv_bench0 by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr



raw+5d2+lexar1066x24p by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr

Nightly Build Oct 24th/13 as a comparison , It did top out at 79.9MB/s read and did see a few 80+ on some early tests I did


dcw1979

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2015, 05:51:48 AM »
Yea I see ,I did some tests today and 30p is a little slower then 24p
I notice that different builds don't have consistent numbers , there are up & down.
raw ver1.0 benches faster then mlv thou,

Raw first, top ,next one down MLV (MLV ver. 2.0 latest Nightly April 7th 2015) on

5d2_24p_lexar1066x_raw_ver.1.0_bench0 by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr

5d2_24p_lexar1066x_mlv_bench0 by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr



raw+5d2+lexar1066x24p by RedDeerCityTV, on Flickr

Nightly Build Oct 24th/13 as a comparison , It did top out at 79.9MB/s read and did see a few 80+ on some early tests I did



Is the MLV ver. 2.0 latest Nightly April 7th 2015 stable to use or have you found issues with this build?

reddeercity

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #18 on: April 17, 2015, 06:14:49 AM »
I never really tested it out for any Production Work just to beach mark my Lexer 1066X.
If you decide to use it make sure you do Full Card Tests . I personally use feb16th nightly build
as it's the Last build with 1872*xxxx  , after that the code was limited to 1856 for 5D2.
It's the only one I trust in Full Film/Video daily Production. (Time Is Money)

rbrune

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2015, 08:51:39 AM »
I never really tested it out for any Production Work just to beach mark my Lexer 1066X.
If you decide to use it make sure you do Full Card Tests . I personally use feb16th nightly build
as it's the Last build with 1872*xxxx  , after that the code was limited to 1856 for 5D2.
It's the only one I trust in Full Film/Video daily Production. (Time Is Money)

It's because 1856 is a multiple of 32 and 1872 is not. mlv_rec limits the resolutions to multiples of 32 because it allows for faster memory copy - and by that also better/stable write performance.

dcw1979

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #20 on: April 18, 2015, 08:27:54 AM »
It's because 1856 is a multiple of 32 and 1872 is not. mlv_rec limits the resolutions to multiples of 32 because it allows for faster memory copy - and by that also better/stable write performance.

Thanks. I think I will use the stable version that you use. I can only find the Feb 18th 2015 build. Is that the one?

Licaon_Kter

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #21 on: April 18, 2015, 11:19:59 AM »
The latest nightly is the latest stable, always. ;)


nlhenry1

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #22 on: April 20, 2015, 07:36:06 PM »
http://gizmodo.com/5969817/the-hobbit-an-unexpected-masterclass-in-why-48-fps-fails

The choice of 24 fps over 30 fps has a lot more to do with psychology and human perception than technical numbers on paper. Nearly every film you've ever seen was shot in 24 fps, and for a very good reason (Hollywood has had access to cameras capable of shooting high frame rates for a long time, and yet 24 fps remains the golden standard for very good reasons described by Mr. Laforet in that write-up)

ansius

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #23 on: April 20, 2015, 11:27:31 PM »
actually 24fps came to be because of sound, where at that time it was the slowest you could get decent optical sound. many small home 8mm and 16mm cameras run slower ~18fps, and drown animation for ages actually has been 12 fps. the difference in between 24 and 25 is so small that it does not matter, 24 to 30 does tough.
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nlhenry1

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Re: 30 frames VS 24 Frames.
« Reply #24 on: April 21, 2015, 12:37:18 AM »
You're right if we're talking about 50 years ago, but my point is: there's a reason we stuck with the 24 fps standard after having the technology to produce motion pictures at any frame rate we want without affecting sound quality. It comes down to 2 possibilities: 1) psychological conditioning i.e. we're just accustomed to 24 fps because that's what we've always seen in movies and thus we associate it with the "cinematic" aesthetic, or 2) some common human psychological factors which, independent of conditioning, cause us to suspend our disbelief with far more ease when we are given slightly less temporal information at 24 fps as opposed to 30.

I tend to think it's the latter, but I could be wrong :)