Author Topic: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?  (Read 9894 times)

beauchampy

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So recently I've been shooting with an FS700 on a friends Odyssey 7Q. It's made me realise the importance of monitoring in rec709 (as well as looking at waveforms) to really nail exposure when shooting in a log format.

So it got me thinking about shooting raw on the 5D and the importance of the picture profile settings and the role they play in referencing what the camera is seeing.

What picture profile do you monitor in when shooting raw? Is there a picture profile that's as close to a rec709 as can be?

ChadMuffin

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Re: Bests picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #1 on: August 15, 2014, 10:09:26 PM »
It's not in Rec 709 but, it tends to be the best for me for judging proper exposure is Technicolor CineStyle. Not for colors but for a good, fast glance at expoure. Also, my understanding is that LV will read that flat profile of CineStyle and give you a better view on the histogram, waveform and other tools of your exposure instead of using a picture style like Standard. Someone should correct me if I am wrong. Works for me, might for you. Also, it is FREE!

http://www.technicolor.com/en/solutions-services/cinestyle

dmilligan

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Re: Bests picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #2 on: August 15, 2014, 10:22:49 PM »
For raw, you really shouldn't be judging exposure by "looks", you are only getting lied to. You should exclusively be using the raw exposure aids. What might be beneficial is if it were possible to craft some sort of picture style that rendered overexposure in raw the same as overexposure in YUV, that way you could use fast YUV zebras (raw zebras are slow and use the CPU, YUV zebras don't). IDK if something like that is even possible.

ChadMuffin

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Re: Bests picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #3 on: August 15, 2014, 10:41:52 PM »
+1

beauchampy

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Re: Bests picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #4 on: August 15, 2014, 11:56:31 PM »
For raw, you really shouldn't be judging exposure by "looks", you are only getting lied to. You should exclusively be using the raw exposure aids. What might be beneficial is if it were possible to craft some sort of picture style that rendered overexposure in raw the same as overexposure in YUV, that way you could use fast YUV zebras (raw zebras are slow and use the CPU, YUV zebras don't). IDK if something like that is even possible.

Oh I totally agree - but aren't all of these exposure aids taking measurements from what is being displayed in LV? I.e. is the histogram basing it's measurements on a picture that is post application of a picture profile? Or is it based on the raw data?

On the odyssey 7q the histogram is wildly different looking at the log and the rec709, so I expose looking at the histogram and zebras with it in rec709..

So say you had the 5d iii setup to shoot raw and a PP set to flaat_10, would the histogram be wildly different to say Canon standard?

dmilligan

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2014, 12:26:29 AM »
Raw exposure aids are called that for precisely one reason. I'll give you a hint: it's not because they are based on YUV data.

brapodam

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Re: Bests picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2014, 02:46:58 AM »
For raw, you really shouldn't be judging exposure by "looks", you are only getting lied to. You should exclusively be using the raw exposure aids. What might be beneficial is if it were possible to craft some sort of picture style that rendered overexposure in raw the same as overexposure in YUV, that way you could use fast YUV zebras (raw zebras are slow and use the CPU, YUV zebras don't). IDK if something like that is even possible.
Using raw exposure aids is good for live view, but what about shooting photos through the viewfinder? The histogram (even the ML one) from the playback is based on the jpg preview, right? In such a case, the picture style affects the histogram because it affects the jpg preview. I currently use neutral with maximum minus sharpness, contrast and saturation

Unfortunately, ML raw exposure aids don't work through the viewfinder...It would be great to have the ETTR hint and raw histobars in the viewfinder, but unfortunately we don't have EVFs in our cameras :(

dmilligan

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2014, 02:50:50 AM »
Again, it's not called a raw exposure aid for nothing. Did you guys even read the link? Like, I don't know, maybe the first sentence.

brapodam

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2014, 02:59:20 AM »
Again, it's not called a raw exposure aid for nothing. Did you guys even read the link? Like, I don't know, maybe the first sentence.
Well I just did a quick test...I set 1 picture style to neutral, with max negative sharpness, contrast and saturation. Second picture style with standard, with max sharpness, contrast and saturation. Used auto ETTR, then shot 2 pictures in raw, alternating the picture style.

ML histogram in playback on first shot showed plenty of headroom to increase exposure, histogram in second pic showed that I had almost clipped highlights.

However, in quick review, the histograms seemed to be the same (both shots had plenty of headroom to push highlights)

reddeercity

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2014, 03:03:07 AM »
I use Landscape Picture profile as is (WB-4800K) plus Magic Zoom, Waveform &  Histogram-->Raw RGB, Linear-->ETTR hint , Like to keep it around
.8 to .3 EV to almost blowout highs (as I use ACR+A.E. to recover high light & pergrade--> 16bit prores 4444 xq). Gives very clean shadow's & blacks at least with 5d2 .

dmilligan

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2014, 03:07:01 AM »
ML histogram in playback
There is no ML histogram in Playback, so I don't know what you are taking about. Maybe you think the Canon histogram is from ML? Canon histograms are not based on raw data (again read the link)

ayshih

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2014, 03:12:03 AM »
ML histogram in playback on first shot showed plenty of headroom to increase exposure, histogram in second pic showed that I had almost clipped highlights.

However, in quick review, the histograms seemed to be the same (both shots had plenty of headroom to push highlights)
That's correct: in playback mode, ML only has access to the processed data, so it's not possible to produce a raw histogram, unlike in quick review mode, where the raw buffer is accessible.

There is no ML histogram in Playback, so I don't know what you are taking about.
He's talking about bringing up the image analysis in playback mode (pressing FUNC or the equivalent button on the camera).
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brapodam

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2014, 03:12:39 AM »
There is no ML histogram in Playback, so I don't know what you are taking about. Maybe you think the Canon histogram is from ML? Canon histograms are not based on raw data (again read the link)
I don't know about other cameras, but on my 60D, you can press unlock to get the ML overlay while in playback mode. I use it mainly for the peaking and the histogram. If I want to look at the Canon histogram, the image will be too small for me to see anything useful, so I prefer using the ML overlay

That's correct: in playback mode, ML only has access to the processed data, so it's not possible to produce a raw histogram, unlike in quick review mode, where the raw buffer is accessible.
Ah, that's what I couldn't figure out, thanks.

But this means that if I want to get as close as I can to a "raw histogram" in playback mode, I need to use picture styles to tweak the jpg preview.

EDIT: So I just tested Cinestyle and it is indeed the closest I get to a RAW histogram...In fact I can't tell the difference between the RAW histogram (from image review) and the jpg histogram (from playback)

chmee

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2014, 09:44:43 AM »
@beauchampy AS you played with an odyssey.. Do you ve got some dng files you'd send me?

beauchampy

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2014, 12:24:21 PM »
@beauchampy AS you played with an odyssey.. Do you ve got some dng files you'd send me?

Not with me right now - I actually deleted the dngs from my test clips because I just had them on my desktop (needed the space!).. I'm shooting with it again on tues and weds this week so I'll get some to you later this week.

chmee

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Re: Best picture profile for judging exposure whilst shooting raw?
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2014, 12:25:58 PM »
Thx