Author Topic: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles  (Read 151801 times)

markanini

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #325 on: October 17, 2017, 10:08:09 PM »
I've seen a quite a few complaints about skin tones looking grey or plastic with different picture styles. Anyone here still facing that issue?
Gear: Canon 600D & Magic Lantern Nightly.

reddeercity

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #326 on: October 18, 2017, 04:41:21 AM »
Hi @reddeercity , can you answer this other thread? I'm very curious about ACES, but don't know much. Thanks.
Sure I'll try to explain it without confusing you more I hope

bpv5P

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #327 on: October 18, 2017, 07:32:52 PM »
I've seen a quite a few complaints about skin tones looking grey or plastic with different picture styles. Anyone here still facing that issue?

Yes, I had this issue with VisionLog (old beta profile from vision-color), but not with LogNeutral. You have to be really hard on color grading, though.
The way to go is MLV if you want quality. If you need to record something that doesn't need so much quality, go with LogNeutral + 3DLUTs, I would say.

Sure I'll try to explain it without confusing you more I hope

Ok, thanks!

kyusu

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #328 on: November 18, 2017, 04:36:05 PM »
Although as @reddeercity says it is a different "fruit" look at the way custom picture styles are installed on the Canon cinema cameras:

Wouldn't that be cool? For still cameras you get three custom picture styles maximum and you need to use EOS Utility to load them.

Thank you for your answer.
Ok i find the time to try understand.
The idea of picture style for the both is the same, different "fruit" but not soo different, it's a fruit.
The idea it’s, if he can do that (reduce some color artefacts or noise) maybe it’s possible to do the same by custom picture styles for DSRL.
Maybe for Log imitation picture styles too, like OESHD C-log.
I do some test in this way here (Half Log imitation picture styles too).
https://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=20991.msg193295#msg193295







Dobfek

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #329 on: September 12, 2020, 05:25:16 PM »
Hello! Today I tried out some picture styles on my Canon, and downloaded a few what I have found for free. I am interested in having bigger dynamic range without too much noise.
I was interested in checking the curves and settings of some, but the Picture Style Editor 1.22.20(the actual one) said that some of them is protected.
I searched for all my .pf2 and pf3 files on my PC, and found that Canon left a japanese tool called NakedPSE in the installer.
You can find them here:
C:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Canon_Inc_IC\UniversalInstaller\Install\Define\ja\NakedPSE
This program can open and edit any kind of Picture Style, does not matter if it is protected or not. You can save your modifications and import it into Picture Style Editor.
It has a long usage documentation, but all in japanese, so that is all I can say about it.

Walter Schulz

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #330 on: September 13, 2020, 03:17:34 PM »
-obsolete-

aceflibble

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #331 on: September 14, 2020, 05:59:49 PM »
Great timing. I read through this thread a year or so ago while looking for a way to access and hopefully edit the R, G, and B curves separately. Tried via hex as brought up earlier in this thread but couldn't get reliable results; probably more my limitation than the method itself, but anyway. Randomly got the itch to search again today and I'm glad I did. This NakedPSE gives quick access to the R, G and B curves separately. Signed up to the forum say thanks for bringing this to people's attention, at the very least.

What I've found so far is though profiles with edited curves work fine in-camera and in DPP, regular PSE doesn't reflect the alterations, and trying to edit the curves or most other 'hidden' things in NakedPSE and then editing the profile further in PSE causes the NakedRGB edits to be lost. Seems the only thing NakedPSE can change that PSE also maintains is the option to prevent a saved profile from being edited further or not. (And the basic sharpness, contrast, saturation and tone settings, but you don't need NakedPSE to change those.) Maybe I've missed something but it seems opening a .PF2 in PSE will essentially strip it of anything that wasn't edited within PSE itself. So you need to use NakedPSE to 'unlock' a profile, then edit it as much as possible in PSE, then open it up again in NakedPSE to mess with the 'hidden' parameters, or do it all in NakedPSE.
Additionally I've found that entering in any kind of negative or inverted curve, either in the RGB curves or the LAB curve, will cause DPP to crash when loading the profile; I don't know if a camera could take it but I'm not willing to risk it in a camera if DPP can't handle it. Seems every curve point has to be higher than the one preceding it. Whatever algorithms Canon uses to smooth out the curve can't handle it, I'm guessing. So no in-camera correction for scanning film negatives, I'm afraid. (Shame, since Nikon's editor can do that.)

Will be doing a lot of trial-and-error (since I don't speak Japanese) with every function for the next few days. Hope some of the more clued-in posters here can return to this thread and help 'decode' how much NakedPSE can do.

In any case, thanks again for finding that and bringing it to peoples' attention, this is potentially huge. Never thought I'd be able to get split-toned colour in-camera, but there it is.





hyalinejim

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #332 on: September 14, 2020, 08:12:51 PM »
Thanks! Keep us posted on what you uncover :)

Danne

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #333 on: September 14, 2020, 08:21:24 PM »
Way back I unlocked those protected files. Actually it was a simple comparing locked and unlocked file and then patch some value at the end. So long ago but shouldn't take long to fix.
On the other hand. Picture styles seems rather meaningless as they are applied to 8bit h264. Better just dial in some visibly wider range straight in cam imo.

Guest

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #334 on: September 14, 2020, 08:24:45 PM »
Oh boy!!! I've been trying to edit/understand picture styles for about 4 years now! You just made me get back to this puzzle, Dobfek. Thank you!

By taking screenshots and then uploading to an online image translator called "yandex" I was able to understand a little and I think that this software needs more stuff to work properly.
Anyway, by messing around I saw that you can Export .icc files, .luc files but it gives a message of error that I don't understand...
 
You can Import a 3x20 Matrix by importing a file (.mat) but I have no idea on how to build a Matrix... Maybe with Matlab like Andy600 said years ago

The LabCurve values have to be in RGB and not LAB values. The values can be both in 8bit or 10bit, in both curves.


You can disable the Edit Lock by changing the value of the DisableEdit tab from 1 to 0. Some Picture profiles show the L curve in PSE after resaving.

The RGB curve doesn't show on PSE and I think its because in NakedPSE you can actually set the R,G,B values separetly, while in PSE its a merged RGB curve.

You can't open .pf3 files in NakedPse, but if you rename the file extension to .pf2 you can.
I'm not sure if by renaming you can really access all the information.. When I opened a famous CLOG profile, there where no information in both RGB and LAB curves.


I'm looking foward to see what the experts will say about this.

btw, I checked several paid Picture Profiles and realize that there are some which are very poor in terms of quality...

Oh, the long documentation is about the PSE and not the NakedPSE. But there are way more information there than in other places like Canon website(I uploaded to an .Doc translator as well.)

Sorry if theres anything wrong in the text. English is not my main language, and I'm far from being anything in this Software/Color World

aceflibble

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #335 on: September 14, 2020, 09:05:30 PM »
On the other hand. Picture styles seems rather meaningless as they are applied to 8bit h264. Better just dial in some visibly wider range straight in cam imo.
If your goal is only to push the latitude a little further for video and your camera doesn't have log, sure.

But for creating specific looks, this is a big deal. For anyone who needs to run-and-gun and use either footage or .jpgs straight out of camera, being able to now easily edit R, G and B curve values in addition to all the other adjustments that can be made in PSE could be quite significant. I have to keep a Fuji system on me alongside Canon as although I have a better lens selection with Canon, sometimes I'm asked to take some behind-the-scenes snaps to post right away and Fuji's Classic Chrome and Classic Negative profiles have so far been my most-requested looks for that. They're also the two colour profiles that are really unique to Fuji and PSE couldn't replicate before due to the lack of shadow tinting. With this NakedPSE and a bit of time (and ideally some way to get .PF3s working), that could well no longer be the case. 

We're basically talking about bypassing any need to shoot flat for later grading and just getting the finished, graded look done in-camera instead. It may not be 100% of the quality on pixel-peeping inspection, but for times when speed matters more than quality, this is (potentially) extremely useful.

Guest

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #336 on: September 15, 2020, 12:45:41 PM »
We're basically talking about bypassing any need to shoot flat for later grading and just getting the finished, graded look done in-camera instead. It may not be 100% of the quality on pixel-peeping inspection, but for times when speed matters more than quality, this is (potentially) extremely useful.

Thats what made me excited about this again. The idea to make pretty accurate looks, like: Accurate REC709 colors straight outta camera(while Faithful is the closest one to the REC709, the colors are still a little bit off), or, in the other hand an specific look as you mentioned with your FUJI system, that in my case would be a specifc colors from a Film Emulation that I use as a starting point in my gradings.

As I said before, I am far from being able to understand this Sofware/Color/Math thing, but I have a feeling that it might be possible to get accurate results by importing a Matrix (.mat) files.

Guest

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #337 on: September 15, 2020, 01:29:37 PM »
You can Import a 3x20 Matrix by importing a file (.mat)

I was wrong. You can actually export a 3x20 Matrix. Not import.

aceflibble

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Re: Reverse Engineering Picture Styles
« Reply #338 on: September 23, 2020, 05:52:06 PM »
Yeah most of the options in NakedPSE are for exporting in various formats, which doesn't help us really decontruct the colour profiles.

FWIW I've found that, like with the R, G and B curves, any changes to the 3x20 matrices in NakedPSE will be lost when opening the profile in PSE and some severe changes in either matrix results in my test EOS R crashing. Still trying to find out the exact limits but it's a lot of trial-and-error. For now it seems like editing the matrices is not advised.
The good news there is I've gone through many premium profiles—about thirty now—and none of them have used custom matrices anyway. It does seem like every profile people have been paying money for over the last ~14 years has in fact been made entirely using regular PSE with nothing truly custom or out of the ordinary. Good news for those of us who'd like to know what changes were being made and how, since it's all much simpler than it used to seem, but bad news for those who paid money for a profile thinking they were getting some actually new functionality.