Author Topic: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage  (Read 593141 times)

dubzeebass

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #325 on: September 04, 2014, 05:31:21 AM »
I gotta say that this is borderline ridiculous. Over a month and here we are still waiting. Don't write cheques you can't cash man.

mlvatsea

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #326 on: September 06, 2014, 06:03:37 AM »
If you get sick of waiting you could develop it yourself?

Just downloaded this yesterday and am pretty happy with the results. We have sent clips to our colorist for final approval but it looks good to me. We are shooting a year long documentary starting next month and needed exactly this kind of tool for storage and getting our cameras to play nice together in post. Keep up the good work and keep us posted on the ACR updates.

dubzeebass

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #327 on: September 07, 2014, 05:42:25 PM »
Yes wonderful idea, I'll write the document instead of the developer who we paid and who has missed several of his own deadlines.

Let me begin.. Page 1: throw camera into fireplace :-)

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #328 on: September 07, 2014, 09:25:36 PM »
@dubzeebass - I have to hold my hands up and apologize for the absent Resolve user guide update. I'm not one for making excuses and I do genuinely feel bad that we haven't yet delivered the updated guide or managed to get the new website online. We are working hard to deliver these and more.

I honestly cannot give you a firm date for the new guide as it includes a certain amount of online video content that still needs editing but it will be soon. The feedback from the Cinelog-C Resolve pre-release has been fantastic but it has also highlighted a need for more basic user education from us so the scope of what we will offer has to expand to meet this. This is also why we delayed the official release of the Cinelog-C luts.

We haven't stopped development and I'm 100% sure you will appreciate what we are going to deliver. I am an end-user/colorist too so I know what is needed and most useful in a color grading workflow. We are tackling the lut loading issue with a bespoke OCIO configuration that you can use in many NLE's and grading apps natively or via a free plugin. The aim is to give you close, if not identical, results from all apps that can support our luts and do this in a very efficient way without you needing to find and load luts all the time. We're also going to make it far easier for you to use lut packs from other vendors and ensure you are in the correct colorspace to use them ;)

...but the updated Resolve guide is coming and is a priority.

If you have any specific questions or need help please email me anytime. I'm happy to help.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

allemyr

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #329 on: September 08, 2014, 03:52:51 PM »
Every time it takes it's worth it! Can't wait for the tutorial realese and other stuff, it will be nice to have it, but the wait is okey. Thank you very much for making good tutorials and awesome LUT's. After finding your luts my quailty increased a big bit in my Resolve workflow. I would be glad if there will be a long tutorial and tips on storing your RAW 5D3 footage in a more "compressed" way.

Best Regards from Sweden!

/ Karl

swinxx

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #330 on: September 08, 2014, 04:46:08 PM »
@allemyr

it is very smart to store all the important video files on a big hd in raw format as backup.
the tools get better over the time, eg. improvements, bug fixes, stripes correction addition or whatever..

greets.

Alan99

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #331 on: September 11, 2014, 12:58:53 PM »
Hi Andy,
Downloaded last night having a go at things right now as they say straight out the box fantastic.
Im very new to video so Im crawling at the moment but its very comforting to know there are
people that are gracious enough to help others on this forum.

 Have a very nice one. Alan.

QuickHitRecord

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #332 on: September 18, 2014, 03:29:09 PM »
I am also waiting on the guide. I like the results that I have been getting, but it's probably not the optimal workflow. When can we expect this, Andy?
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swinxx

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #333 on: September 18, 2014, 07:04:46 PM »
i am also waiting,
and i have to admit that i dont really like companies that donĀ“t meet announcements..



Jbowdach

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #334 on: September 30, 2014, 10:38:12 PM »
Im gonna jump in and ask when we can expect an update as well? I would never request such a thing, but you did essentially sell a product in beta form, numerous of us were so impressed that we payed in advance assuming you were somewhat close. Its been several months, and Im even on a new camera and Ive yet to see any updates to workflow suggestions, look luts, or any of the promised inclusions that we paid for. I understand it required sophisticated equipment to develop these, but at this point the I honestly feel your product is incomplete and although I didnt mind waiting a little bit for more development, its been quite a while without any updates from you.

Can you please provide some type of ETA for updates, as any other product would? Otherwise I dont feel it was fair for you to charge for these.. Visioncolor provides VisionLog for free and simply charges for the LUTs, and although I tried to support a smal project like your own, Im beginning to wonder if it was a good idea. I hope you are able to change my mind about that, as it seems others feel the same way about the unacceptable delay. Many thanks!

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #335 on: October 01, 2014, 01:55:53 AM »
@QuickHitRecord, @swinxx, @Jbowdach and all..

Sorry for the lack of updates. I/We really are working flat out. It's mostly just myself and occasionally an engineer who helps me with testing and knows his way around a film scanner.

As I said in my previous post, I'm not one for making excuses. I know how frustrating it is to wait for things but I also know the complexity of this process and the unexpected pitfalls along the way. Time really is my enemy at the moment (OK, and my earlier over-optimistic estimates on delivery have made it much worse - for which I am solely responsible and I again apologize for!) , there just are not enough hours in the day. I will deliver on all that is promised but please remember, I'm working alone most of the time and Cinelog is not yet big enough to employ another member of staff, let alone one who has the required knowledge.

Anyway, to try to shed a little light on what I'm doing, here is a status update on Cinelog-C (not including the website update and LutBank which is being done in parallel by myself and a currently absent web designer).

Cinelog-C will work with any color/editing app that can support luts and/or ICC profiles either natively or via plugins.

An important feature of the new Cinelog-C lut pack (not yet released) is reconfiguring everything to work with OpenColorIO. We have built application specific OCIO configurations which you can use with free OFX plugins in After Effects, Premier Pro, Resolve, Nuke (native support), Natron, Sony Vegas and others. OpenColorIO is a frame work that lets us use variables and matrices for getting to and from colorspaces which means accuracy and efficiency. In some cases this also allows for GPU acceleration and exporting of custom transform luts (you choose what goes in and what comes out and it will generate a lut for you). Alongside logspace transfer functions you will also be able to transfer to/from their colorspace counterparts. This means if you want to convert Magic Lantern Raw to Slog2/3 it will output not only Slog gamma but also S-Gamut/S-Gamut3/S-Gamut3-Cine wide gamut RGB. All these transforms/transfers are invertible and transferable, even after rendering - if you ever work with a colorist they will love you for this!

We have also added our new film emulation luts to the configurations to ensure the correct colorspace is always used. There are multiple variations (looks) in these 'presets' using ASC CDL files, RGB matrices and luts to show what can be achieved when processed through a PFE lut. All you need to worry about is making sure your white balance is correct for REC709/sRGB.

BTW, We will be redistributing the OCIO plugins (where the license permits) on our new website along with installers or installation instructions (i.e. how to set environmental variables etc). These will be free to download for everyone. Along with the default log transfers already available through OCIO we will include a basic custom config that includes some of the freely available 'log' luts (i.e. VisionLog, Cinestyle) and pseudo-Canon picture styles. The free version will also have de-log functions for all the log curves offered with MLRawViewer. The commercial version has extra OCIO configs making use of our custom luts.

If you don't want to use OCIO all the various configs will be available as high resolution 1D/3D and/or shaper luts (initially in Iridas .cube format) . Lut conversion to any unsupported format is free of charge on request, as are updates/upgrades. Cinelog-C that was sent to current customers is a pre-release upgrade. We don't currently sell this but wanted to give current users a preview pack after it was requested numerous times. With hindsight I probably should have held back until everything was complete. The full release is more extensive.


As with the original Cinelog, Cinelog-C will also be available for Adobe Camera Raw. There are new optimized camera profiles for ACR that are set-and-forget (you only adjust white balance). We have decided to keep things simple and include all supported cameras for each manufacturer in one pack (i.e. all Canon DSLRs or all Blackmagic Cameras etc). The OCIO configuration is slightly different than for other apps as it has additional transfer functions designed to get from the new ACR profile(s) log output to Cinelog-C colorspace before rendering.

Although Cinelog-C is a proper mathematical wide gamut log colorspace (i.e. based on RGB primaries, white point (D65) and a log formula, convertible using a 3x3 RGB matrix), the biggest challenge we have faced is getting a unified output from the myriad of different color grading apps that are available. You would think that a professional NLE would adhere to defined standards but unfortunately this is not always the case! Blackmagic for instance, have never published the formula for BMD Film colorspace so we have had to blindly reverse engineer it to a color matrix and log formula that produces an almost identical output (+/- 3%). We needed to do this because simple color matching using something like Matchlight can only really work on a shot by shot basis and is pretty much limited to the shot you are matching. There are restrictions/limits when debayering ML Raw using Resolves REC709 colorspace (and the current V11 beta has debayering noise issues) but Cinelog-C does have a new ACES transform and we are working on camera IDTs. This part is of course irrelevant if you work exclusively in one NLE or grading app but we do have users who are VFX artists, working in Nuke or AE and who work with colorists who are grading 5D Mark III ML Raw footage on a Baselight or Resolve system. We need to make sure color critical information is always passed between apps.

To give you an idea of the scale of what I/we have had to do (and are still doing), involves testing luts, ICC profiles, OCIO configs etc on 13 different color grading and NLE apps (some I have had to learn the fundamentals of) on multiple platforms plus now some of the lut supporting raw converters (i.e. MLRawViewer) and 2 beta apps that are under NDA. I don't own all these and have to rent software or rent time in grading suites for testing. We also had to rent/borrow several cameras to be sure we are getting consistent results so that when we say that your 7D ML raw footage can be transformed to Alexa Log-C, it actually will be Log-C (as per the Arri white paper) and be comparative to what Log-C from the Alexa actually looks like (within limits, i.e. excluding the differences in sensor, dynamic range and saturation control etc that you get with the Alexa and the debayer quality of the host app).

I also offer detailed email support and have built very technical luts for several of the bigger cameras and poorly supported raw recorders (i.e. FS700/Convergent Design Odyssey) - this is a very small business so I have to take on additional work if it comes in. I'm not saying this to moan, because I genuinely enjoy my work, but purely to offer an explanation of why things can take time. Things will get better!


@Jbowdach re: ETA on release/VisionLog etc

The luts are finalized, the OCIO configurations are built for most apps (about 80% finished - it's a lot of code), the new ACR profiles are finished. I'm still working on documentation - I'm going to limit the written instructions to the absolute basics and do the rest in video tutorials. I still need to build/test the new installers before a final check on all setups that will be supported plus the website needs updating - the new site is actually built but there is quite a bit of content to add. My web helper is ill atm so that part is stalled as I have to focus on the final product push.

re: VisionLog - Yes VisionLog ACR profiles are free and they also provide a BMD to VisionLog lut free, but as you said, you still pay for their other luts and they cost more (I can't express a view on the Impulz or Osaris packs as I don't own them). Also, upgrades? future products etc - will they be free to customers? TBH, without being too technical the VisionLog profile is not, to my knowledge, based on a math formula. It's more of a log 'look' which means dynamic range will take a hit. There is a reason these things should be done with math ;) but if it works for some users then I wont argue.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

soloflow

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #336 on: October 01, 2014, 02:46:14 PM »
Sounds promising. Any latest date for the release?

QuickHitRecord

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #337 on: October 06, 2014, 05:01:11 PM »
Andy,

I will continue to check this thread regularly as I eagerly await the release of the guide.

In the meantime, is there anything wholly wrong with doing this?

BMDFilm 4K Color Space (Project Settings) + CineLog-C (Project Settings) > Color Balance + Exposure Tweaks (Serial Node) > FilmConvert (Serial Node; Camera set to Arri Alexa Log) > Export

Also, I'm steering clear of using the X-Rite Color Checker tool like you said earlier. Dave Dugdale's questioning the validity of Resolve's color match tool as well: http://www.learningdslrvideo.com/dsc-labs-vs-xrite/
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blainesuque

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #338 on: October 09, 2014, 07:33:29 AM »
For using Film Converts Film Emulation , what it better suggested.....Cinelog ? or Vision Log?

beauchampy

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arrinkiiii

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #340 on: October 16, 2014, 12:04:42 PM »
 WOW I have read your blog and what a nice colores !!! 

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #341 on: October 16, 2014, 09:20:49 PM »
@beauchampy - Very nice, very punchy but above all they look accurate!.. but that's only to be expected from Dale Grahn. They guy is one of the best in the business IMO.

@QuickHitRecord - That workflow will work fine if you're going from raw to deliverable. Re: colorchecker, it's still very useful to have but like a lot of others I can't trust the colorchecker tool. I get the concept completely but there are just too many variables at play for it to work 100% of the time. I hope BMD steer the tool towards raw calibration, maybe as part of their ACES support where it would be much more useful.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

andresharambour

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #342 on: November 01, 2014, 01:14:10 AM »
Hey Andy,

Any news on the manuals or update?

Thanks!

epyonxero

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #343 on: November 11, 2014, 12:59:18 AM »
Just read through this thread and it sounds interesting but I wonder where the latest release is?

swinxx

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #344 on: November 11, 2014, 05:39:28 AM »
You can not find it, cause there is no :(

bennyray1

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #345 on: November 11, 2014, 07:28:53 PM »
Hey Andy will there be a Speedgrade workflow integrated with the release of Cinelog-C? I really enjoy the simplicity of Adobe product interaction, would be great if we could add Cinelog-C using Speedgrade and add which ever LUT combination after that within AE/Premiere/Speedgrade...I think you had mentioned before that this was not possible,but just double checking anyway..thank you sir.

siebenmorgen

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #346 on: November 18, 2014, 11:41:59 AM »
Hi Andy,

same here! Cinelog C for Speedgrade would be genius!

QuickHitRecord

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #347 on: November 24, 2014, 04:18:28 AM »
Any updates, Andy?
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DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #348 on: November 26, 2014, 12:12:36 AM »
I just purchased the Koji LUTS and looking forward to apply these together with your much anticipated Cinelog-C (hopefully all of us wont get too caught up in the hype!)

Thanks, Andy!
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QuickHitRecord

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #349 on: December 05, 2014, 05:50:44 AM »
From Sekonic profiles made with my L-478 for my 5D3:

The purple line is BMDFilm4K; the pink line is Cinelog, and the yellow line is H264.

Here's CineLog by itself:



Compared to: BMDFilm (4K)



And H264:

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