Author Topic: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage  (Read 456060 times)

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #775 on: July 26, 2016, 01:50:25 AM »
That was done in After Effects using the TIFF.

I added an exposure plugin and reduced offset a little (about 1/3 of a stop), then added a curves plugin to shape the contrast making an s-curve with a fairly steep slope to add contrast to the mids, then the Film Look (Cinelog-C to Cinelog Film Look 10 using the Cinelog OpenColorIO config), a levels plugin to push the gain up and finally the unsharp mask plugin. The trick is to make the adjustments in logspace under the lut so you are looking at the image with contrast and saturation.

TBH I haven't tried grading log images properly in Lightroom but everything I used in After Effects has an equivalent feature in Lightroom and Photoshop (except of course OCIO and Luts - though Photoshop can apply luts and both can use ICC profiles which can easily be exported from OCIO).
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Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #776 on: July 26, 2016, 02:23:29 AM »
I'm not a day-to-day Lightroom user but I just bashed out a LR preset to roughly emulate the graded look I posted previously - just apply it to the Cinelog-C TIFF

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/sample-conversions/Cinelog-C_process_01.lrtemplate

Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

DeafEyeJedi

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Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #777 on: August 01, 2016, 11:57:26 PM »
@Andy600-

Thanks for the remarkable updates. They are incredible and now I am trying to wrap my head around with the newly somewhat modified workflow with your new Cinelog-C products.

I know you mentioned that we wouldn't be required to use OCIO to apply the 2nd part of (Cinelog-C) similar to what what we had to do in previous versions and it is to my surprise that for some reason I cannot understand (as one other has reported this as well) why or how to get the Cinelog-C configs to show up on the enlisted under the drop down window within OCIO in AE.

Here's a clip of what I am referring this to...


Also I noticed you mentioned in previous post that you were able to scroll down and select Cinelog Film Look 10 from the OCIO listings? Where do I go about that? It seems I have to use the Apply Color LUT plugin from AE in order to apply this look on top of the Cinelog?

Thanks again, Andy!
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DeafEyeJedi

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Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #778 on: August 02, 2016, 09:22:55 PM »
Thanks for the tip, Andy. Gotta dig how lovely it is to use the Cinelog_Filmlooks by within a click of a button under 'Display' in OCIO. Nice hidden gem I'd say. Ha!
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beauchampy

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #779 on: August 09, 2016, 10:34:08 AM »
I'm not a day-to-day Lightroom user but I just bashed out a LR preset to roughly emulate the graded look I posted previously - just apply it to the Cinelog-C TIFF


Andy, these results look amazing - what an exciting development!

Can we talk a bit about workflow?

I tend to shoot short form documentary style films, usually huge amounts of footage with interviews and all sorts (even on 5d3 raw).

I've been using a Resolve since the round trip workflow (creating roughly graded proxies, usually just with a LUT thrown on, editing in Premiere, XML back to Resolve for the grade) is quite efficient.

Would it be possible to maintain a similar workflow, but the grading process done inside AE utilising ACR and OCIO? Is there a round trip style workflow?

DanHaag

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #780 on: September 05, 2016, 11:10:52 PM »
Wondering which "Sharpness" settings you guys prefer to use in the raw tab within DaVinci Resolve. Is there a proven best range for ML footage processed with Cinelog (or the DaVinci Color Managed equivalent) to get a clear image without overdoing it? Depends on taste, I guess, just interested in what you're all generally using.

Just talking about the raw panel in particular, not whatever other technique used in the grading process afterwards.  :) I'm just struggling whether to rely more heavily on the raw tab or do my major sharpening later on with other tools.

ibrahim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #781 on: September 14, 2016, 03:02:42 PM »
Hi,

I am having a big problem.
In AE (via camera raw) I selected cinelog-C rendered y footage. I imported the footage in Pr where I added two separate adjustment layers on top of them:

1st adjustment layer: blending mode set at normal 100%
OCIO #1:
input space: cinelog-C
output space: cineon REC709 RGB

OCIO #2:
Vision 6 - log32 from Osiris LUTs
interpolation: Tetraheral

2nd adjustment layer: blending mode set at normal 70%
only one OCIO:
Vision 6 - log32 from Osiris LUTs
interpolation: Tetraheral

In order to make all my footage have the same "color mood" as if the footage is filmed before sunset I've made some adjustment using colorista, three-way color corrector and some tweaking in lumtri color panel's curves (red, green, blu channel).

The problem I've having now is that I get too much noise in my shadows even though I've lowered the saturation of my shadows to below 50%. My ISO have been set at 80-260 at most and used denoise in camera raw. On top of that I've used red giant denoiser II plugin to remove the excess noise. Yet I am still getting too much noise.

I suspect that I've done something wrong in the OCIO. I hope that you guys can help me solve this problem since I have a deadline to render this video in two days.



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Kharak

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #782 on: September 14, 2016, 04:54:06 PM »
You are using the wrong osiris luts. When you output from cinelog c to rec709, your Osiris luts should be the rec709 too. You are applying log luts to rec709 footage the way you are doing it.

and you are adding two of the same luts on top of each other, that is quite counter productive in my eyes, unless you are going for something special there. I would rather try applying only one osiris rec709 lut and grade it from there. Applying Log luts to rec709 will, if its by the book, crush a lot of detail as the log luts are inverse curves designed for bringing log to rec709 or close to it. By applying log to rec709, you are applying very extreme curves.

Tip, do the Colour Correction before adding the look lut and then after applying the lut do the Colour Grading.
once you go raw you never go back

ibrahim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #783 on: September 14, 2016, 05:34:27 PM »
Many thanks Kharak, I'l do what you've said. Yes I do the color correction on the underlying footage, i.e. before applying the LUTs.

Tip, do the Colour Correction before adding the look lut and then after applying the lut do the Colour Grading.

Meanwhile, I did the following modification prior to your reply. Tell me if it is right:
On top of the footage:

1st adjustment layer: blending mode set at normal 100%
OCIO #1:
input space: cinelog-C
output space: linear REC709

OCIO #2:
input space: linear REC709
output space: Cinelog REC709

2nd adjustment layer: blending mode set at normal 70%
only one OCIO:
Vision 6 - log32 from Osiris LUTs
interpolation: Tetraheral

Is that a correct approach? Thanks in advance.

Canon 5D Mark IIIs & Canon 600d | Ronin-M | Rokinon 35mm T1.5 Cine AS UMC | Samyang 85mm T1.5 UMC AS Cine VDSLR II   | Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II | etc
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Kharak

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #784 on: September 14, 2016, 06:13:41 PM »
I think the problem is that you are still applying Osiris Log Luts to non-log footage (your ocio conversion). If you bought the Osiris pack, you should have two seperate folders, log and Rec709. You should be applying Rec709 Luts to Rec709 footage and Log Luts to Log footage. Ofcourse, "log" in the term of Osiris luts is a Generic Log, you have cinelog which is "one kind" of log. There are so many different kinds of log like c-log, s-log, log-c etc.. This is the beauty of cinelog that it allows you to match different cameras with different log profiles. But the Log Luts in Osiris is a generic log, it means that it is only an inverse curve which doesn't match exactly to anything in cinelog-c. The osiris log will require adjusments no matter what, but their Rec709 should not require too much adjustment, because it is a global standard.

So try to apply osiris rec709 to your converted cinelog-c to rec709 footage. That should take you in the right direction.

Also your step 2 is unnecceary, as you can just go directly from cinelog to cinelog rec709 if i remember correctly
once you go raw you never go back

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #785 on: September 14, 2016, 07:41:00 PM »
If it's a lut for log footage try:

OCIO#1
input space: Cinelog-C
output  space: Cineon Rec709 RGB or Cinelog-C with Film Matrix

Tip: You could also try any of the Cineon DSLR output profiles or Cineon 2-Strip, Cineon 3-strip for alternative colors (i.e. as the output space).

Cineon Rec709 RGB is the default but Cinelog-C with Film Matrix can make things pretty.

OCIO#2
Your Osiris Log Lut (tetrahedral interpolation) - If it looks wrong (washed out) then try the Rec709 version.

Hint: A lut that is intended to be applied to Rec709 footage will have very little, if any, contrast. If it does apply a ton of contrast it is a good indication that the lut is for a log source (or just badly made).


Kharak is correct - There is no need to use 2 OCIO instances to go from one colorspace to another unless you are doing something in between i.e. exposure adjustments in Linear light.

Tip: don't use the GPU acceleration option more than once (it's not multi-threaded) and only ever use it for output luts, not colorspace transforms because it clamps the signal at 0-1 - I never use it.


If the words 'Generic log' are inferred it is almost always Cineon and Cinelog-C is Cineon in terms of gamma - If the Osiris luts were built for Cineon you should get a reasonable result but it's possible they were built for VisionLog so try VisionLog Gamma as the output space in OCIO (but watch out for highlight clipping).

Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

ibrahim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #786 on: September 14, 2016, 09:37:11 PM »
I see. Thanks guys. Two questions:

1) Should I set the following configuration

OCIO#1
input space: Cinelog-C
output  space: Cinelog-C with Film Matrix

to convert or display?

2) Are the Cineon DSLR output profiles or Cineon 2-Strip, Cineon 3-strip,... logs?
Canon 5D Mark IIIs & Canon 600d | Ronin-M | Rokinon 35mm T1.5 Cine AS UMC | Samyang 85mm T1.5 UMC AS Cine VDSLR II   | Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II | etc
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Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #787 on: September 14, 2016, 10:26:24 PM »
If you're adding the Osiris lut then you want to keep the image in logspace - you are only converting the gamut so you would do so in 'convert' not 'display'.

There are several 'color type' choices - Cineon Rec709 RGB is a straight forward matrix transform to Rec709 primaries. The DSLR cineon options can be thought of as Rec709 but have targeted hue adjustments in much the same way as happens with Picture Styles in the camera but non-destructively. The 2-strip and 3-strip options attempt to emulate Technicolor film processing. They are matrix conversions i.e. technically you can undo them (inverse transform) but you can't undo the DSLR color options.

The DSLR color profiles in 'convert' are all log - you'll notice if you choose any of the DSLR Cineon profiles that the gamma will not change but a color lut (or matrix) is being applied that maps the gamut to rec709 and then applies some other color adjustments - the actual gamut mapping happens in linear but is then converted back to log so you'll see no gamma change when you convert, only color.

The 'looks' in the Display list are output referred meaning they are intended for final output.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

ibrahim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #788 on: September 15, 2016, 12:48:40 AM »
Thanks Andy. I get the whole picture now. One last question, do I loose any picture quality if I render the LUT processed footage in 24bit in Pr CC 2015 instead of 32 bit? The footage has previously been rendered in 32 bit via AE.
Canon 5D Mark IIIs & Canon 600d | Ronin-M | Rokinon 35mm T1.5 Cine AS UMC | Samyang 85mm T1.5 UMC AS Cine VDSLR II   | Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II | etc
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Brawl

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #789 on: September 15, 2016, 01:22:49 AM »
If for example I use mlvproducer to export into cinema dng is it important to setup a particular color space for export? Then I will add cinelog only in premiere or davinci resolve.
may you try please?
thx

Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #790 on: September 15, 2016, 01:52:57 AM »
@ibrahim - I think you're confusing the workspace bit depth with output encoding. Any quality loss will depend on your choice of delivery codec. If you are uploading to Youtube/Vimeo it's pointless going above ProRes HQ or DNxHD equivalent. Most users will upload H.264. For archiving a master you can output at higher quality.

@Brawl - CinemaDNG is raw (well technically it's a TIFF) and doesn't really have a colorspace until you debayer it. The colorspace is dependent on the raw app (Resolve, ACR, Lightroom etc) and it's color management. I doubt MLVP is embedding ICC profile data and any changes you can make in the app are unlikely to affect the DNGs that are exported from it.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

ibrahim

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #791 on: September 16, 2016, 08:54:50 PM »
Thanks Andy. Yes my question was about encoding, a separate question from workspace. Do you know any hosting website that supports prores unlike youtube or vimeo that compresses the quality?
I came across www.frame.io but wonder how effective it is to upload prores for clients.
Canon 5D Mark IIIs & Canon 600d | Ronin-M | Rokinon 35mm T1.5 Cine AS UMC | Samyang 85mm T1.5 UMC AS Cine VDSLR II   | Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM | Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II | etc
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DanHaag

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #792 on: September 22, 2016, 02:17:23 PM »
Quote from: Dan Haag
Wondering which "Sharpness" settings you guys prefer to use in the raw tab within DaVinci Resolve. Is there a proven best range for ML footage processed with Cinelog (or the DaVinci Color Managed equivalent) to get a clear image without overdoing it? Depends on taste, I guess, just interested in what you're all generally using.

Just talking about the raw panel in particular, not whatever other technique used in the grading process afterwards.  :) I'm just struggling whether to rely more heavily on the raw tab or do my major sharpening later on with other tools.

Sorry for quoting myself, won't do it again.  :P Would reeeeally love to know your sharpening workflow and general sharpen settings with Cinelog in DaVinci Resolve.  8)

mdchev

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #793 on: December 16, 2016, 01:45:41 AM »
Is Cinelog-C still in business? I purchased their bundle package this morning, but it won't allow me to setup my LUT Bank account, which seems to be the one and ONLY place documentation presumably exists and I can't find any way to contact the company other than the contact page which says they're receiving an overwhelming number of emails and response times are delayed. Of course my first thought was, "you didn't have any delays in accepting my money" or clarifying ALL SALES ARE FINAL; but I digress.

I don't mean to speak ill of them at all, I want to love them because I think they have the solution to my problems, it's just been a less than desirable first experience.

**and yes I appended the token to the url properly

JeDaiL

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #794 on: December 19, 2016, 10:51:56 PM »
Hi Andy, hi folks,

I've been trying to use Cinelog-C luts in Resolve, ML RAW, Raw2CDNG, BlackMagic to Cinelog-C, to Cinelog Rec709 and this is what i'm getting. Weird highlights (flame). Looks better before the lut, i'm missing something with  the workflow?
 see the exemple
http://gofile.me/6sW4Z/apShSmMVk


Andy600

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #795 on: December 20, 2016, 12:31:53 AM »
@JeDail,

This looks like a workflow related issue.

Can you send me the dng and I'll check. 

@mdchev - I trust everything was sorted to your satisfaction on the 16th?
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Lars Steenhoff

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #796 on: December 20, 2016, 11:10:42 AM »
Hi Andy, if you have the time could you add some more new LUTs to the LUT Bank, I love the ones you have already there.
Especially like the  film simulation Luts, with variations in the grade.

BrooksPowell

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #797 on: January 20, 2017, 08:17:03 PM »
Note to ML Community:
Hey Everyone!
I am a first time poster, but a long time stalker. I wanted to thank the ML Dev team + everyone who still talks in here, manages the program, trouble shoots, gives tutorials, etc. I'm amazed at how amazing ML is as a program, but even more amazed at how it is as a community. I have no code skills, but I'd love to give back in anyway possible once I graduate from school!

If you ever want to stalk me and my wife, (shameless plug) but you can see our video skills progression on vimeo.com/shelbyandbrooks. (I'm pretty heavy in the description about workflows so I can remember how I did it - some might find this helpful!)

To Andy600
Figured out how to Install OCIO. Get Cinelog stuff working in it, etc. (I might post a tutorial on this, I literally almost didn't buy Cinelog because I didn't understand how to install / use OCIO.) So far so good! Love the film looks!

I recently got the full Magic Bullet Suite for sub $300 (student discount = 50% off, + 40% off for their end of year deal). I am an Adobe user and have found their programs to make a bit more sense to me. I would like to do the majority of my color grading within Premiere.

I would like my workflow to be:
5D Mark III -> MLVFS -> After Effects (Smart Import 2 script) -> Cinelog-C ProRes 4444 XQ (for storage, then delete DNGs on confirmation the clip looks good) -> Premiere / MB Looks.

I really prefer to grade in Premiere because I need to see the adjacent clips / cuts so as to make sure the grades fit well through the transition.

Question:
I talked with the support staff at MB and they stated:
Andrey V (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:26:06 am)
We when grading - we have a "Your Footage Is" tool that helps Looks 4 by identifying your footage as Log or sRGB. We do have some generic presets, as well as 2 Sony S LOG based presets:

Andrey V (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:26:14 am)
https://static.livechatinc.com/1053031/OKD3D8WQR7/b08943681247747215e727550324bbe1/Screen%20Shot%202017-01-20%20at%209.22.40%20AM.png

Andrey V (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:27:11 am)
You also have the option of creating your own preset by select “Log” under the “Gamma” drop down menu, adjusting Exposire, Contrast, Saturation, White, and Black and then saving the Preset with a custom name that will populate in the Presets menu:

Andrey V (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:27:21 am)
https://static.livechatinc.com/1053031/OKD3D8WQR7/39d04a4c107c2267161113b444dcc872/Screen%20Shot%202017-01-20%20at%209.23.01%20AM.png

Andrey V (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:28:17 am)
I the vast majority of cases, selecting Log or Flat Video is a good starting point to tweak your specific log from.

Andrey V (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:28:42 am)
however we do not have a specific preset for the profile you linked me to

Brooks Powell (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:29:29 am)
Cool. I am not too technical. Will the custom be enough you think for the maker of Cinelog-C to create a preset for his log?

Brooks Powell (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:29:37 am)
Does he need to know anything else

Brooks Powell (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:29:38 am)
?

Andrey V (Fri, 1/20/2017, 09:30:51 am)
Absolutely, it is a very flexible interface and designed to be customized for any of the available Log formats (Canon log, Panasonic log, the Cinema DNG that BlackMagic uses) - in fact this preset can even be created with a trial version of the software"


Q1)
Is what Andrey said is true about being able to customize that area for any available log format? If so, would it be possible for you to let us know what the settings should be? / Make a preset?

I think the easiest way would be to play with it on the free trial. However, I uploaded the options here as well:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7qNP2ugJkrMM0JpN29jMnR4LUU

Q2
I have searched the interwebs, internal docs, etc. and can't find anything / I want a quick confirmation. When I import my cDNGs to AE, I then get the ACR pop up, then I go to camera profiles and make it "5D Mark III Cinelog-C" or what not.

I understand that if I were to convert to Cineon or something else, I use OCIO and make input Cinelog-C, then output to whatever.

However, if I just want to render Cinelog-C master files in ProRes 4444 XQ, do I need to open up OCIO? And then do input Cinelog-C and output Cinelog-C? It seems I wouldn't, since no change is occuring if the input / output are same, however, I know your product uses OCIO as part of the way it functions, and so I have just been worrying that somehow I'm not getting true Cinelog-C if I don't run it through OCIO. (When doing a lot of footage, like 150 clips, I would hate having to open OCIO for each.)

Sorry for my lack of technical knowledge!

Q3
-In AE, specifically the rendering part, do we want to click "preserve RGB"?
-How should the AE color management be handled? Any updates with the 2016 product you have put out?
-In ProRes 4444 XQ, there's an option about Gamma (I believe its "auto" or "off".) Which should we use with Cinelog-C?

Thanks so much! Got a gig from a friend that needs a video done in Cuba and leaving in next few days, hoping to use Cinelog-C for it!

agentirons

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #798 on: February 03, 2017, 07:01:38 PM »
I can at least answer Q2 - You don't need to add the OCIO effect if you're rendering out Cinelog-C masters. You can find a description of the correct render output settings in the Cinelog Quick Start guide.

DeafEyeJedi

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Re: Cinelog - True logspace conversion for DNG and CinemaDNG footage
« Reply #799 on: February 13, 2017, 05:20:02 PM »
Thanks @Andy600 for yet another fine update to Cinelog DCP 2017! :D
5D3.113 • 5D3.123 • EOSM.203 • 7D.203 • 70D.112 • 100D.101 • EOSM2.*