Messages

If you have a lot of 16mm lenses, the Black Magic Pocket Camera can be a good choice, otherwise your cropfactor will be 2.3!!!!!
If I were you, I would cancel and go for the Canon 5D MarkIII.

I used to use S16 film cameras, so its partly a nostalgia thing & i normally shoot with anamorphic lenses, so the taking lens should be ok at about 24mm+anamorphic lens, which would give me a field of view of about 48mm (x1.5 anamorphic) or 36mm (x2 anamorphic).

Also, the crop factor @ 960x544 is way more than it would be on the pocket compared to the 60D.

5D3 is too much money at the moment - £2.5K vs under £1K.
& the fact that with an anamorphic lens i'll be getting a 2K image once i stretch the footage to its proper dimensions!
But it might be a waiting game as prices might go down on the 5D3 - at some point anyway.
Also, if what i've experienced with 60D RAW footage & upscaling rings true, then the Pocket will easily be able to be upscaled way beyond 1080p - if & when RAW comes to that camera.

Those buffers are memory hardware in your 60D. Eager to rebuild yours?   

While your 60D is open you can implement a Black Magic Design SSD drive the same time!   

Frustrated! There's potential but i'm not understanding if or how that can get us anywhere.
I'm really interested to see if we can use better crop factors to get longer recording times -basically anything under 1280x720 & above 960x544!

Got a BM Pocket Camera on pre-order & just trying to decide whether or not to cancel - but knowing BM i've probably got plenty of time to decide (months)!

What do you think we use the buffers for? Drawing stars on the display?

Not that stupid! Just think that maybe people are over looking the potential of the 60D _ yes i'm cursing the fact that they upgraded the 50D & left out the CF card option!
But couldn't there be more buffers involved with that extra memory, which you said was available - so instead of x8 31M, we get x10? Or have i not understood a thing?

Well... for storing a few more frames. This is the strong point of 60D: a few seconds at high resolution.

For continuous recording, don't expect more than 960x540 at 24 fps.

I know nothing about coding etc..., but couldn't this extra memory be used to store stuff before it gets to the SD card - a buffer within a buffer?
I was just thinking that if the original Canon firmware was taking a Raw reading & then processing it, then it had to store those images somewhere (even if for a little while) before it processed them to a H264 .mov file?
Couldn't that extra memory be used for exactly the same thing but just holding up the write process to the SD card?

I'm not trying to be greedy & now i've discovered the benefits of ETTR, i'll be happy with 960x544 @ 24fps.

Just it seems crazy that there's extra memory that could be used for storage or something...

Heh, I thought it's clear for everybody that more light = less noise.

Also higher ISO = less noise (all other things being equal), but that's another story.

It really stumped me, but shit i never thought it would be that good!
I was struggling to get nice images at ISO100 & now i realise that was sooooo wrong.
I've tested the same ETTR principles with 960x544 & its a whole different ball game -quality has now risen to new hights.
I would like some different crop sizes, but we are relying on 1 person to compile new stuff for the 60D.
Any body going to step up to compile new builds for us?
Also, A1ex what about that extra memory in the 60D, can that be used for anything?

Because of the ISO being at 800, i wanted to expose one by following ETTR & the other as I would normally have done.
So to keep the ISO the same for both (& so the potential noise would be the same), i just moved f stop.
If i had lowered the ISO then the test would have been redundant, as the noise levels would have been different.

Looking very clean!
What lens did you use?

Nikon 24mm f2.8 ai-s
Think the f stops were about 4 & 11.

Following ETTR really works, just tried it with 960x544 & the difference is amazing!
Yes there's still some noise, which is intensified due to upscaling, but still minimal compared to exposing normally - now the sensor noise really does look more like film grain.

WOW! Thanks for all this information its been so helpful for video (i'll get to using it for pictures soon).

It really improves the footage!

Going to re-shoot some scenes for a short film using RAW & it will be a low light scene at a desk.
I have been following the ETTR principle & this is the result.

Light from a table lamp.
Everything shot @ ISO 800
16:9 1728x992 @ 23.976 fps (108 frames or 5 secs).
Lens F Stop was the only difference.

@Marekk - any chance of another compile, as A1ex has said that:

"16:9 is 1728x972 on 60D. The mod32/64 restriction is no longer there."

& there seem to be some new crop sizes in Raw_Record, which might mean that we get some better sizes than 960x544 & perhaps some longer recording times.

Also, since it looks like we might be getting a RAW to CinemaDNG converter, is there anything that can be done to solve the Hot Pixels that still exist?

I've changed the "Record time @ 16:9 almost 1080p 24fps no crop": it should be 1728x922 = 108 frames (not silent pic, which i think it was before - if you change back to SP figure it should read 72 frames).

Problem with 60D is that there seem to be 2 different models - one produces more frames than the other.
So getting accurate figures is going to be a struggle.

So i just got the following results:

Sandisk Extreme Pro SDHC 1 8gb 45MB/s

1280x432 3:1 @ 25fps = 2079 frames

& I'm using an early 2011 model, which does give more frames.

So it might be worth opening that SD or not!

NEWS: Apparently we have some memory that isn't being used, which might be really useful!
See Alex1 second comment on page (its to do with setting Canon Picture setting to jpeg S2)
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5413.375

When they upgraded the 50D to the 60D they did not only leave out the CF-interface but also changed the quality of the body.
The 50D was build like the 5D, all aluminium chassis. The 60D has a shell that's made of polycarbonate resin strengthened with glass fibre.

But I still love the 60D!      

Yaeh, but more pissed off about the CF card at this precise point in time.
Love my 60D too!

Thanks for reiterating turning Global Draw OFF. I had seen that one other place and tried it and sure enough, it seems to limit the pink corrupt magenta frames. Not sure if it's a 100% fix but it's definitely better than what I was getting with Global Draw ON.

Also try the Canon Native ISOs (100,200 etc...), it does wonders for reducing sensor noise & might have an effect on the torn/magenta frames. But i'm still getting some every so often.

I'm experimenting with setting the camera to 720p & am getting double the frames @ 1728x992 (250ish frames) - but they seem to be squashed! 

What is the ETTR exactly? 

Follow the link below & read a little - its all about pictures, but the same applies to exposing video. Basically for video you can have a RAW Histogram & basically you overexpose, without completely blowing out the highlights. So when you edit your DNG files you just pull down the exposure & hey presto, not so much noise & better detail.

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5693.0

raw2dng won't recognize the RAW's as a RAW-file (forgot the exact name!) and won't convert them to DNG's.

ML (RAW) is for multiple Canon EOS camera's and I think the 60D doesn't have high priority by the developers.
The focus is probably on the Canon 5D MarkIII, so untill that version is stable they will look at other models (my guess!)
and sort it out. Until then we are living on the edge!   

That's strange about the RAW files - search around on other threads (600D or 550D).

Yes the main development is on 5D3 & also, since the developers have a 600D/550D that is also a focus (i believe our camera is slightly better than the 600D/550D).
So whatever works for them they just implement it for us.

The really annoying thing for us is that we have the best buffer readings of all the cameras!
Yes even better than 5D3!
This is why we can get a few seconds recording at our full resolution - 1728x922 (108 frames).
However, because we have SD cards we can't take advantage of this fully!
If we had a CF card slot we would almost certainly be in 5D3 territory & with a near enough S35mm sensor!

Why when they upgraded the 50D to the 60D did they leave out the CF cards?! Bastards!!!!!!!

I can stop recording manually before ML/60D crashes at writing frame 1457!
All the file sizes are about 1.2x GB, so not very big.
But larger resolutions like 1280 and higher do 'automagically' stop and the RAW's can be processed.

I don't think the difference is the SD-interface. Canon aimed at H.264( probably High level 4, they never tell you  !) which needs max. 20MB/s troughput.
Why give the 60D a faster, more expansive SD-interface than needed!

Of course I would like to know what the real differences are. Mine 60D was bought november 2011 and should be fast, but is not!
Maybe different electronic hardware like an updated Digic 4 processor gives other 60D's a better performance?

Mine was bought in April 2011, so if anything they downgraded something after that.

So in what conditions can't you process the RAW file/s?

I know that the max crop factor that we can use is 1728x... - if you try to record at higher sizes it won't let you open them.
Also, when you first turn on camera & go to the RAW video menu, you will notice that it says 1728x... as default, but you actually have to go into the menu & select this value (as when you do you'll see that it was set at a higher value but reading/telling you the lower value).
So, when you select a higher value it will still tell you that you're recording at 1728x..., but you can't record at this level & have to ignore what it says & still select the highest value of 1728x... (or a lower value).

Due to the fact that there two types of 60D's, I'm unable to make an 'automagically' end of a 960xwhatever recording.
Worse, the RAW's can't be processed either!
To be exact, the 60D's build in SD-interface delimits the write speed, not the card. And with 1280x432px (3:1) I'm getting twice as much frames with 95MB/s in contrast to 45MB/s!

All tests @25FPS.
SD-card: Lexar 16GB 60MB/s
1280 x 432 px  3:1         1188 frames

SD-card: SanDisk 32GB 95MB/s
1280 x 432 px  3:1       2317 - 2118 - 2283 - 2079 - 2215 frames

Furthermore in case of a faster card your RAW Gigs will copy faster to your computer!

Do you mean you can't stop the recording by pressing the record button?
And you can't open the files? Is that something to do with the size of the files?

Good to know about fast SD cards (did say "might") - I wasn't sure if this was the difference between 60Ds or cards.
The fastest i've got runs @ 45MB/s & yes, it did produce much more frames than a normal Transcend class 10.

Just tried the following:
Transcend 16gb Class10

1208x423  3:1 @ 23.976 = 2147 frames
1280x423  3:1 @ 25 = 1553

I've got a feeling the Sandisk SD cards are better & their write speeds haven't much to do with it.
If i do the same test with my 45MB/s Sandisk, I bet i'll get the same results as yours.

So could it be that the 'SD Interfaces' are the differences between some 60D models?
Or is it the type of card you use - might be worth if people post which cards work best?

The link you gave was about ETTR and has nothing to do with the corruption (pink burst). And besides ETTR is not yet implemented on 60D. What's the point bud?

I never said it did solve the tearing of files & we already discovered that you need to turn everything off whilst recording - so you really need to read through the threads properly (I know its a pain to do that, but it will be helpful).
Unfortunately, you will still get a few magenta frames from time to time & it does look as if using Canon's native ISO values (100,200 etc...) will help with this problem & they also produce less sensor noise.

And yes, ETTR is implemented on the 60D (use the Raw Histogram for video) & will help make your footage @ 960x544 a lot cleaner. It also means you can use higher ISO values - there will still be some noise, but not nearly as much.

Here are some extra things:
1. There are 2 different types of 60D, so some will get more frames than others (no one knows why or has investigated further).
2. The max write speed to SD cards is 21MB/s - so getting an expensive fast SD card might be a waste of money (45MB/s cards have produced the best results for me so far).
3. Do try & follow the ETTR (expose to the right) principle, you'll get less noise & be able to recover more detail.
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5693.0
4. Turn Global Draw off when recording.
5. Use Canon Native ISOs (100,200,300 etc...) - much better for noise.
6. Remember to use FPS Override (it has loads of new frame rates now) - especially important when using x5 crop.
7. Experiment with changing Picture quality in Canon Menu (Jpeg quality S2 was working best, this might have changed so do try/compare to SRaw).
8. Try 1080p & 720p modes in Canon menu (you'll get more frames in 720p, but quality might not be as great - i think you can improve this in 720p mode by using x5 crop).
9. Do extensive testing to find what works for you!
10. And be careful about using this for paid work!!!!!

Transcoding into CinemaDNG:
Mac users should follow this thread:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6218.0

Wins users:
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=5618.0 

Just remember that you are all Alpha testing something & it isn't the finished article by a long shot!
Read the threads for 600D & 550D, as there is some useful info in them that could answer some of your questions.

Also, this thread will help a great deal with reducing sensor noise when using smaller crops of 960x544 etc...
http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6076.0

Any chance we could get another crop size (or 2) put to the list - something starting with or above 1024 (which i believe is the next step up from 960).
On my 60D, I'm getting minutes of (sometimes continuous) recording at the 960x..., but as soon as i jump up to 1280x... i slump straight back down to a few hundred frames.

Thanks & great work!

@ Marekk.

Thanks for the newest compile, looking good.
Just got continuous recording with 2.35:1 @ 960x416, it didn't even break sweat - 1 star flashing & 15.6MB/s (stopped after 13000 frames). And this was on a Transcend 16gb class 10 SD card.

I think we need some more crop sizes that are around the 1000x... mark for longer recording times & better resolution.
Just nobody seems up for implementing them for our crippled cameras!

Bit of an ISO vs Grain/Sensor Noise test.
Not very interesting, but the results surprised me so i thought i'd share them.
Also, I never liked looking at those blackish tests, so wanted a more real world test.

So only natural light used & moved the variable/fluid preset aperture ring to make sure the light was the same throughout all ISO settings. You'll immediately notice the difference between the Canon Native (100, 200etc...) & the multiples of 160.

Everything filmed @: 16:9 1728x922 @ 23.976 + 108frames
All graded the same.
& I left the frame tears in (which were all produced @ multiples of 160).

(just noticed that Vimeo compression ruins it, but you can download)

Yes it is different, we'll just have to wait for Marekk to make a new build

Weird, I did buy my 60D also in november 2011!

Hmmm Strange!
I got mine in April 2011.
Perhaps it might be region specific & no one has really investigated any further than there seems to be a marked difference between people's 60Ds.

Try a different SD card & see what results you get.
Also, i'm getting best results in 16:9 & also 2.35:1.

If I try 960 x 544 @ 24 FPS or @24FPS the maximum frame count is just over 1400.
Using a Sandisk Extreme Pro SD card (32GB/95MB/s).

Do you use special settings/tweaks?

I'm using a Sandisk Extreme Pro SDHC 1 (8gb 45MB/s).
I turn everything off in ML as well as Global Draw.
Also, if you don't set FPS Override it will record @ 23.976 natively (I only set FPS Override @ 24 when using x5 Zoom).

Also, there are different versions of the 60D & by that i mean the older ones made circa 2011 behave differently to the newer versions - no one knows why or what has changed in the manufacture of the 60D.
I use a 60D from 2011 & seem to get more Frames.

This question is for any developers that might read this:

Is it possible to get some different ratios, as the jump from (16:9) 960x544 to 1280x720 is huge!
With 960x544 i'm getting a steady 7680 frames or 5mins recording (1280x720 is only 350frames/15secs), so a bit bigger ratio might mean better quality & actuality reaching minutes of recording (1,2,3,4...) instead of seconds.

Also, the Mb/s shown whilst recording is all at a steady 19.6, even for 960x544 & for this it used to be 20.1Mb/s -so what's happened here?