Messages

Was there a mass email sent to all Cinelog owners?  I didn't get anything about the new software.

I guess my question is which look do you prefer?    I mean it actually means we can have even more LOOKS via the different methods.  It seems if the issue is repeatable and the results consistent with either Resolve/RAW vs DNxHD then it's a happy accident IMO.

Stunning images.  Loved the color.  Looks like HDR the image pops so much.  I haven't used the Arri LOG-C yet.  Do you find it adds something special to your image?  I also use Resolve and Cinelog.  I'm also curious what LUT did you use to get the look at the end?

Been fun learning how to use Cinelog with Resolve 10.  I've been running my MLV's thru MLVMystic using the 2x2 Chroma smoothing.  So far everything looks pretty good.  It took a bit of work for me to figure out how to get my White Balance right, but it's getting easier as I keep practicing.  I've got some Commercials and a Wedding coming up over the next few months.  Should be ready by then.  Amazing how good the 50D can look considering it's older than any other DSLR I have.  VERY HAPPY with Cinelog so far.  Still got a lot to learn about Color Grading etc.

I'm not sure I understand the differences in going thru ACR versus Resolve or even RawTherapee to debayer.  Which will yield the best results regardless of time and what is the actual visual difference?

MEH!!!  I have a low level of technical knowledge about this subject.  I bought Cinelog because I needed a low cost, low CPU/GPU/Storage overhead, Easy to use workflow.  I wanted great results and from everything I saw this product could help get to great results for a relative noob like me.  I don't care about what seems to me to be an argument over semantics or purist techno babble.  For me workflow and end results are everything.

Thanks Andy600.  I'm gonna have some weddings and commercials to shoot over the next few months.  I'll try to use the 50D as much as possible.  I too am on the fence about the VAF.  I saw a very good test where the guy added sharpening and it literally looked just about as detailed as the original shot without the filter.  Still i'm going to be testing various lens and noise reduction processes to see how things go even without the filter.  I don't shoot cityscapes.  Mostly weddings, music videos, commercials and interviews.  So I may be able to get away without the VAF.

Andy600, what is your method of converting MLV to CDNG?  Does it matter which app you use in your experience.

Do you have a VAF for your 50D or do you just use crop mode all the time?  Cuz I don't see moire in your shots.

To be honest I want to mimic your process as much as possible because it is EXACTLY how I want my footage to look.

@50Deezil - Video Tuts are coming. I haven't made any screen captured tuts before so I need to set up everything to do it. That's my next job after the release of the Resolve version.

re: MLV - I would recommend mlv especially because of the metadata issues with .raw for Adobe workflows. Current Cinelog customers will get the Resolve version free so you have the option of either workflow.

Thanks Andy600.  I'm even more intrigued by the new Resolve 11 announcement. 

I'm curious if it's OK to convert files to CineformRAW and then do the Cinelog thing in Resolve?

Thanks Andy600.  Since I can go either with Resolve or ACR, I would really appreciate if you could do a test of a file using both methods to show the difference.  If it's not that much better maybe the Resolve method will be worth it in the end for convenience sake. 

To be honest I'm still a bit unsure of the best workflow so I look forward to any tutorials about the subject.  I've been intrigued by software like RAW4Pro and conversion to Cineform as part of my workflow, but again it's hard to know what is going to produce the best image quality with the fastest flow and smallest file sizes.

I assume that starting with MVL2DNG would be step one?  After that I'm lost.  Yes i'm a NOOB.

I loaded the latest build 3.27.14 and the first thing I noticed is that I was able to set the Shutter to 1/48 which had been an issue for me in the past.  I saw that the resolution had increased a bit to 1568x882.  I'm using a Komputerbay 32GB card.  I did notice that it takes longer for recording to actually start now.

The 1st time I tried to record it lasted just about a minute and then the camera reported 1 skipped frame and locked up, so I had to remove the battery.  After that it recorded for 5 minutes straight with no issues whatsoever. 

I noticed that at the start of a new recording the 3rd time the little Green Camera icon flashed Red and Yellow a few times before staying solid green as it started recording.

I also noticed that the remaining free Storage space doesn't update after a new recording until I turn the camera off and back on.

This is MLV Rec on
1568x882 
Global Draw on all modes
Zebras on
Spotmeter on
Waveform Small on
FPS Override on 23.976 (Exact FPS)
Expo. Sim on
LV DIGIC Peaking on
File Manager on
MLV Play on
Picture View on
Camera temp was at 48C after all the recording.

Will do more testing and report anything else I find.

This Cinelog development is so exciting for me.  I've been hoping for something to help me get the best out of my footage from my 50D.  Spring and Summer is coming and a ton of work with it.  Can't wait to get a comfortable workflow going.  What i've seen so far looks outstanding and I can only imagine how much better things will get.  Keep up the good work.

I asked earlier if there are any plans to produce short tutorials of how to best use Cinelog.  I see there are no videos on the website demonstrating the product.  Do you see that happening any time soon?

Any news on the progress with the 50D Global Draw issue?  I've had issues with my 50D locking up on me, which never happened before.  This was with the March 9, 2014 build.

I have a 50D and i'm planning on buying a 7D.  I'm very interested in the Cinelog product, but wonder if they plan to create a video on the best workflows for the product using ACR or RAWTherapee?  I think this is very much needed for the novices out there like myself.  Thank you.

does the 50D run any cooler via a battery adapter?

Someone posted earlier in the thread that he noted about 3  degrees C less heat when using the battery adapter rather than battery.

I did some research on the 50D and it's sensor isn't one of the best in terms of Dynamic Range.  It's about the same as a Panasonic GH2.  In fact it's VERY similar.  What I do believe is that RAW allows us to keep more of that dynamic range however limited it may be.  Canon's later sensors are all superior in this regard, but still not the best in the sensor world.  The best Dynamic Range is going to be at the base ISO.  So for the 50D that's about 100-200 ISO.  The measured Dynamic Range for the 50D is 11.6 EV max using ACR, but with a real range of 8.5 EV from ISO 200-1600 and the 5Dmkiii is about 12EV max.  Realistically we're probably talking about 10 stops of DR.  The thing is that the Canon Sensors aren't that great in the shadows.  Whatever Dynamic Range there is to be had will be better using RAW and the available RAW editing programs than the standard H.264.  This is just one aspect of the image tho.

The beauty of RAW is going to be the flexibility and the smoothness of gradation on color.  It just has a look that is much more pleasing in the end IMO.  Also we're getting some serious detail as opposed to the normal low detail Canon default video.  It's just a superior image using RAW.  It's extra work but for those who can appreciate the benefits it could be well worth the extra work to get a better overall image.

Then why are the modes and behavior the same as 1x and 5x mode on other cams? All I see is rumor posts before the camera was released and people speculating it has 3x3 binning but no official or empirical proof that it is.

Then I see this guy:

http://www.canonwatch.com/eos-5d-mark-iii-hacked-anti-aliasing-filter-removed-more-sharpness/


Filter is blurring/darkening the image... hmmm sounds like that would take down moire just like the VAF. Also the moire issues seem related to sensor size and resolution output + how it divides up and then debayers.

The issue of Moire and Aliasing isn't as simple as the strength of the OLPF or the use of Pixel Binning alone.  Also there is the sensor and it's megapixel count that seems to also play a part in the process.  The Nikon D7100 doesn't have an AA filter and is able to record without producing Aliasing and Moire.  I think that it's pixel Pitch of 3.9 helps in this regard as it seems it might help the GH2 which has a pixel pitch of 3.6.  I think a smaller pixel pitch plus really good pixel binning may be enough to handle Aliasing and Moire even without an AA Filter.  It's all just my theory anyway.

The larger pixel pitch of 6.1 on the 5Dmk3 sensor may require that they have a strong AA filter in place in addition to Pixel Binning or maybe it's enough all by itself.  My guess is that Canon isn't line skipping on the 5Dmk3.  I think the 5Dmk3 video in RAW is so good that I can't imagine that it's only the stronger AA filter that is doing the job. 

I would think that any footage with the filter removed, if it IS the way the 5D3 has reduced aliasing/moire would show tons of it.  To me it looks like one of the commentators is right, the filter is more about IR, or something else.  Am I missing something?  Seems this video proves exactly the opposite, that Canon is using electronics to deal with aliasing issues in the 5D3 (that it didn't do in all cameras previous)

Even Mosaic says take their filter out before doing serious photography.

It gets confusing but the Anti Aliasing Filter in Photo Cameras is not there to prevent Aliasing and Moire in Video.  It's just enough for the high resolution of a full sensor output but not strong enough for the needs of video.  The reason some DSLR's have avoided major issues with Moire and Aliasing has to do with how they get to the smaller resolution of 1080p video from the much larger output of the sensor.  Panasonic in the GH2 was using pixel binning to downsize the image which is better than line skipping. Canon was using line skipping in all their DSLR's until the 5DmkIII which I think they now use Pixel Binning to downsize from full sensor to the much smaller 1080p, which leads to a better final image with less moire and aliasing and more preserved detail.

I just did a quick, unscientific test and the max I can get it to show is 11.4EV at ISO 100 & 200 (which proves the Dx0 mark ISO charts) using center weighted average metering.

That's good to know.  I did try to provide as much good supporting information as I could find.

a1ex, I don't understand why you think it's nonsense to describe a cameras Dynamic Range as "shifted to highlights or shadows" when all i'm trying to describe is the results of Dynamic Range tests where they determine the mid gray point as 50% luminance and measure the number of stops below mid gray and above.  Some sensors have more DR in the shadows and others in the highlight range, thus my saying "shifted to".  2 sensors could have the same DR overall but not have the same distribution of stops above or below mid gray.   Its just a manner of speaking not a technical term.  The point being that when establishing a mid point as a point of reference you can determine how much a camera sees into the shadows or highlights.  Saying a sensor is "shifted" one way or the other is relative to 50% luminance, it may have been clumsy but it's hard to shorten it any other way IMO.

[According to DP Review the best they could get from the 7D in RAW was 9.8EV and the best they got from the 50D was 11.6 in RAW. So this could be another aspect that is helping the look of the 50D.]

After doing some technical research on the 7D and 50D I found that the 50D has far more noise in RAW as you increase ISO than the 7D.  The 7D also retains more detail and I think this is probably one of the things people like about the 50D.  The slight softness is likely more pleasing than the 7D for some.  This might also be the same for the  5D3 in some peoples opinion.  I think some people like the slightly softer look of the 50D.

Nothing i've seen would suggest that the 50D would be better in low light than the 7D tho.  Another issue is how the cameras handle color.  From what i've seen they seem to have the same color profile.  So I think another issue would be highlight handling.  The only thing I see is that it seems the 50D is slightly shifted towards the highlight range and the 7D the shadow range.   Not a wide margin but it's there.   Throughout the usable ISO range the 50D holds a slight advantage in highlights.  The 7D does better in the shadow range.  According to DP Review the best they could get from the 7D in RAW was 9.8EV and the best they got from the 50D was 11.6 in RAW.  So this could be another aspect that is helping the look of the 50D.

[I think the smaller sensor helps a bit with aliasing and moire compared to the 7D.]

Yea, I saw that and thought the same thing. Is it just me or does the 50D produce a better raw video image than the 7D? I think the smaller sensor helps a bit with aliasing and moire compared to the 7D. It's still there of course but there is something very nice and, dare I say, unique about the 50D's image quality (if you treat it right ).

The 7D and 50D have the same size sensor of 14.9 x 22.3mm APS-C - but the Resolution of the sensor in the 7D is 5360 x 3515 and the 50D is 4770 x 3177.    They have different amount of pixels  7D 18.84 Mpix and 50D 15.15 Mpix.    The Pixel pitch of the 7D is 4.2 and the 50D is 4.7.  So it seems they have totally different sensors which could easily explain the difference some think they see.

The strange thing is that the Dynamic Range of the 7D and 50D are almost the same.  The most they can muster at ISO 100 is 11.7 for the 7D and 11.4 for the 50D.  The 2 cameras track almost identical thru the rest of their ISO range in terms of DR.  I don't know about Noise tho.     I'd love to see some data on the Noise going thru the ISO range.

Has anyone done a comparison video between the 7D and 50D to prove if the image in indeed different with the same settings? 

Komputerbay 128GB 1050x records continuous raw at...

23.976

- - 1584x1058 (almost 3:2) - - Shows no bars in the metering... Global Draw is off. (Raw photo mode is ON.)

25 P

- - 1584x1058 (almost 3:2) - - Shows no bars in the metering... Global Draw is off. (Raw photo mode is ON.)

29.970

- - 1584x1058 (almost 3:2) - - 864 frames ((Raw photo mode is OFF.)

5X Center Crop

23.976

1920 x 1080 - 1715 frames (results varied a lot) (Hacked - No Preview proved best results).

1920 x 1038 - Continuous (results varied).

Things to consider is that if you are going to push the card to the limit it want to record a short take and then skip frames. After that first short take it will record something fierce and of course continuously. This is different than the Komputerbay 64 GB card. That card seems to just get up and go and if it gets into a recording bind somehow finds a way to lower buffers.

... Saw a serious increase in the 50D's ability to capture frames by disabling raw in the photo mode. However, I too typically shoot with raw enabled because 1584 x 892 at a standard frame rate is not a stretch for the Komputerbay cards. Have never gotten pink frames either.


If you haven't been following... I purchased a 128 GB 1000x card from Komputerbay about a week ago. Unfortunately, the card would not work with ML on the 50D. I contacted Komputerbay support and they had me send in the card for a firmware adjustment. At that point, I asked to upgrade to the 1050x because they stated that the 1050x would also work with the 50D after they made a firmware adjustment. Well, I got the card back from their tech support today and was absolutely able to load the firmware with success. Yes it's a 128 GB 1050x card and yet it will work with ML! Reads as a 119GB card, but it should be able to capture 128 GB without any trouble. If you notice the 64 GB 1000x cards read as a 60 GB card in the Canon 50D and it still captures a full 64 GB worth of data.

If you are interested in the card, you might want to talk to Komputerbay before purchasing the card from Amazon or ebay. They may have some of the firmware adjusted cards in stock. I don't know for sure, but I would think that they would have at least a few. Who knows?

Thanks for posting this info.  I had given up on the idea of a 128GB card.  This is great news.  What is the highest write speed you get with it so far? 

$200 Cineform 4:4:4 or RAW?

I'm seriously considering this myself.  Cineform seems to be what pretty much everyone is asking for in terms of a very good way to reduce file size and keep the quality gains of RAW.  I'm still investigating this option but it looks very compelling.

After a couple weeks of testing the prototype 50D VAF the one thing that stands out the most about this filter is the ability to push the RAW image in post. When aliasing and moiré occurs in your footage the post-production color correction process has a limitation. That is why I decided to acquire a VAF from Mosaic Engineering. Interestingly, what I wasn't expecting to come about, at least so dramatically, was the range of colors that the 50D could handle with the VAF in place.

The 50D aliasing issue causes post-production color correction limitations.  It's a factor that must be configured into the color correction process. However, with the limitation seemingly removed, especially during close-ups & mid shots, the images derived from the 50D become far more capable in post-production processes.

For example, when color correcting footage without the VAF I find that my scopes rest in the 50 - 70% legal television chroma-value range before the image proves qualities of aliasing, moiré, and false color. With the VAF in place I regular find myself beyond television chroma-value limits and the image appears to want to go even further without breakdowns in skin tones and other artifacts. This is a very positive attribute that is only derived from a camera that has a lot of flexibility. So as a result, you know, the prototype 50D VAF is proving very valuable to the workflow.

Not to say that everything is totally perfect. There are some additional issues with the filter that need to be addressed. Currently, parfocal lensing is not possible. The VAF negates the user's ability to zoom in on a subject, adjust focus, zoom out from the subject and maintain focus throughout the entire focal distance. However, that is not an issue with prime lensing. I am currently in the process of speaking with Mosaic Engineering to address the filter's performance.

If you follow the link you will be directed to download sample DNG images as well as video footage. You'll notice that the filter eliminates about 85 - 90 percent of the moiré and aliasing in the chroma channels. The luma channels appear to hold aliasing and moiré but the percentage is about 93 - 97 percent eliminated.

https://copy.com/IOqlwsmWUi8i

So what do you think? Would 92 - 100 percent moiré elimination actually take away from detail & texture? Is 100% moiré and aliasing elimination a better solution because the shooter would never have to worry about when and when not to use filters to block moiré and aliasing? Or, would you prefer more texture and detail with the chance of moiré and aliasing in the image?

More or less that is what I'm thinking about the filter right now. The right thing to do will be to post another response after addressing this with Mosaic Engineering. I presume we all want to know just how much of an impact the VAF can make, right? Until then, thanks for reading and enjoy your time.

Thanks for this thorough review and samples.  I think so far it's pretty good.  It's hard to say if just a bit more of an aggressive filter in order to get rid of the Moire even more would be too much.  I think right now it would be adequate the way it is for most situations, but some people really want to get rid of the colored Moire more than anything.  IMO the detail still looks adequate and i'm sure with a bit of sharpening the image would be great.

Do you know if they're going to tweak their formula just a bit more or leave it as is?