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I'm sad to say I've now defected over to a Panasonic GH2 ;-)

The build quality is poor compared to a Canon, but the 1080p 24fps AVCHD video, hacked to >60Mbps is simply amazing quality. Comparing it side-by-side with a friends 5d MkII or my 600D it's a massive improvement in resolution, not just a subtle change.

...I'll come back to Canon as soon as they make a DSLR with proper 1080p video rather than the current 'soft' upscaled offering.

I really do miss the great features that ML provides, it really does make using a DSLR so much easier and it's one of the downsides of using a GH2 rather than an EOS.

Hope to return back to Canon, in a few canon model generations time, if and when they get their act together ;-)

in the meantime thanks and best wishes to the guys at ML.

Better than everything except 5DIII and dedicated video cameras

Just talking about pure 1080P HD Video quality (not build quality or camera ergonomics or features) don't you think a hacked Panasonic GH2 can produce 'better' HD video that an EOS currently can ?

I know the 'soft' video look a Canon EOS camera produces can be very nice for some uses, but at the end of the day although the EOS file output is 1080p, you could argue it isn't actually a 1080 HD video at all, due to the internal camera resolutions and upscaling etc.

I love my 600D but really wish there was a way of getting better sharper, higher resolution video out of it...

A short video I made, using ML 2.3 on a 600D.

Graded in Premiere Pro CS6 and tone blended to give a pseudo-HDR look. 35mm film grain also added.

Comments/feedback welcome.

Thanks 1%. Understood that a higher bitrate may mean easier post.

Does this all mean that irrespective of encoding tweaks, the internal resolution of the 600D will mean that this is as good as video quality will get?

I've just done a (non-scientific) test.

I arranged some objects, lit them with a LED panel and using a 600D on a fluid head tripod, with a sandisk 95MB/sec SD card and using ISO160, 1/50th, f6.4 i shot some video. I used a neutral picture profile with in-camera sharpening turned down to minimum.

Firstly here is a screenshot from the scene i shot,  (apologies I just gathered some objects together quickly to use)



Firstly I shot a video panning slowly from right to left (about a six second pan) using ML 2.3 and CBR x1.8. The resulting video was an average bitrate of 61678kbps

Then using 1%'s version of ML, I shot another video using the exact same conditions and panning at a very similar speed, but at All-I and an average bitrate of 103320 kbps.

On playback afterwards, on a 23" PC monitor (frustratingly) I could not see any visual difference between the two clips.

I then did a screen capture of a mid point frame from each video and in photoshop zoomed to 300% and compared a similar area from each video, to see if closer scrutiny would reveal a difference.

The ML2.3 CBR x1.8 is on the left, the 1% ML is on the right. I can't really see much or any appreciable difference.



I'm really puzzled why cranking the bitrate up and making the capture All-I appears to make no perceivable viewing difference to the video quality...

NB; I'm not saying that in other lighting conditions or scenes there might not be benefits in having a higher bitrate or All-I, but I'm struggling to see how to improve 600D video for 'general' usage.

Is it perhaps that the (less than 1080HD) resolution used internally within the 600D before up-scaling to 1080 is the quality bottleneck....or is it that the 600D's H264 encoder is at or near it's quality limit and not much more can be squeezed out of it.

Any ideas?

Thanks,

Really I should make a guide at some point once its all good and tested.

1% - Is there any way you could write up a quick user guide in this thread, or at least a basic settings template to use that gave maximum video quality, along with a few comments as to what does what.

I downloaded your dev work, but couldn't make out what to do in the UI, so stopped ;-)  I'd really like to try the All-I mode, or whatever you recommend as best from your tests.

Reason i ask is I'd really like to try and improve the quality of video on my 600D. I've tried doing some tests with ML 2.3 and I find it very difficult to see any difference between CBR x1.0 and CBR x 2.8. I've tried putting screen grabs side by side and doing zoom in's but there appears to be little or no difference between the two bitrates in use (which is not what I was expecting).

Alex, I think he's referring to wanting to record two simultaneous video stream in parallel, rather than odd and even frames as per HDR video recording.

dirkvanderven - Others can advise better than me, but this isn't possible. The camera is pretty maxed out with the existing HDR video usage

g3gg0 - regarding the

bitrate increase i experiment with on 7D is also possible (tested) on 600D

can you explain further please? Are you referring to the existing ML 2.3 ability to crank the bitrate up by altering the CBR factor (eg. Taking CBR x1.0 to say CBR x 1.8 ) - or is this something else? I noticed another thread regarding your experiments in massively increasing bitrate, with CBR x9.0 mentioned....but... I got the impression from my limited understanding that just simply increasing the bitrate above say CBR x2.0 won't actually yield any real-world advantage in perceived video quality.  FWIW - I'm already running my 600d successfully at CBR x1.8 for all usage (with no audio) but struggle to see any difference if I crank my bitrate up to CBR x2.8.

If the resizing of YUV in the camera isn't technically possible, then I presume that the only avenue left is regarding MJPEG based recording or clean HDMI out to an external recorder?

Francis - Good feedback, I guess we all have different usages and expectations, which is no bad thing. I would hope that users who don't want to have to deal with very large video data files, can choose to use the normal bitrates and recording regimes.

Thanks 1%

I wonder if >>or you're limited to only 4GB files<< is really a problem for most ML users, if it meant better video quality as an option ? (question not a statement)

General question for Alex and the development team.

What do you see as being the next stage in ML development to get better video quality out of the camera? By 'better' I mean higher quality 1080p video with less artifacts and more detail, in a fairly easy-to-use and understand video recording UI. (FWIW - for me, getting better video quality is my No1 wishlist item)

I've seen on the forum (but don't really understand) some All-I discussions, mention of MJPEG and also of (distant?) potential for clean 1080p HDMI out and external recorders.

Taking a snapshot of the current ML work and the current known EOS environment, what's next for better video quality?

(As always thanks guys for all the hard work)

Ahhh, I should have read it properly first time ;-)

Alex, Thanks. I've been using the arrow key shortcuts and they work well, when there is plenty of time whilst shooting.

But, I find that when I'm in a situation where there is a wide variation of lighting conditions (eg. moving around a room, near windows, etc) and I need to constantly be altering the exposure settings to account for the different conditions, that using the key shortcuts can be a pain. This is made worse by the fact that my viewfinder loupe further restricts fast/easy access to the arrow keys.

In that type of situation, where generally I've a preset and fixed shutter speed that I don't want to alter, being able to instantly scroll through aperture stops with the main wheel, without having any pre-selection and without having to look away from the viewfinder, would be very fast/ideal.

I can select and hold 'AV button' and turn the main dial - and then I get what I want, but again this is not as good as a direct assignment of the main wheel to Av.

Is this technically possible to do?

I'm using a 600D (T3i) with ML 2.3.

In LV/Movie mode, the main dial (the thumbwheel near the shutter button) can be used to directly alter shutter speed. However...I have no real need for that and would prefer the main dial to be able to be assigned to directly control the aperture value.

Is this possible to alter in ML (or in the 600D main menus somewhere) ?

Thanks.

Following on from 1% advice.

You may have already tried different EOS picturestyles, but if you haven't...

It's worth trying a 'flat' picture style and then altering the contrast/colour plus sharpening later in post, rather than using the in-camera pocessing. It seems to be generally accepted that this is a a good workflow for DSLR video.

As a suggestion; Go to the Canon UI and select picturestyle. Create a custom picturestyle using 'Neutral' and then adjust the following -

Sharpness - turn down to zero
Contrast - turn down to Zero
Saturation - turn down two clicks to '-2'
Color tone - leave at '0'

Tip - You may find that viewing and focusing when using a flat picture style is more difficult in Live View than using the default 'Auto' Picturestyle due to the lesser contrast and sharpening in-camera. To get around this you can use ML to use two picturestyles - one for when you are not recording, and another when you press record. I use 'Auto' picturestyle in normal LV and then set ML to select my custom flat picturestyle when I hit record.

If you google 'EOS DSLR flat picturestyles' there is a ton of info out there.

I've been using Premiere Pro CS6 recently and the H264 export works pretty well for me, using the standard 1080p 25fps settings and target bitrate at around 30Mbps.  The Vimeo 1080p preset works ok too.

FWIW - I'm using a 600D (T3i) at CBR x1.8

Thanks again, all is becoming clearer to me now.

Starting with AVIsynth and using your fullrangetest samples I need to now work out what player I'm going to use on my Win7 PC moving forwards.

KB - the RV software looks an amazing tool, but unfortunately as a hobbiest/amateur it is out of my price league.

Thanks y3llow for taking the time to reply with such a detailed answer, much appreciated.

For me, as a newcomer to DSLR video, it's a real learning curve and eyeopener to now appreciate and learn that WMP and VLC don't playback my camera's .MOV files coreectly.

I've always 'expected' a standrard media player to 'correctly' play back a common type of media file. ...mistake in my part ;-)

I need to read your post a few more times to absorb all the onfo, but it was most helpful, thanks.

Update;

Ok...I think I'm getting somewhere now, in terms of understanding the 'problem'.

I've just realised... that If I try to play back a .MOV video file from my Cannon 600D (t3i) on my PC using windows media player or VLC player, it plays the video levels back incorrectly, in terms of the blacks getting darkened. I presume this is down to the 0-255 range of the video being expanded by the player and the blacks (and whites?) getting clipped?

If I open and play back a .MOV video file from my 600D on my PC using Apple Quicktime player, it then plays back correctly.I don't normally use QT player, so hadn't seen this.

(As an aside if I deselect 'Use hardware YUV-RGB conversion' in VLC Player's preferences, it then also plays back the .MOV video correctly...any ideas why?)

So...now I know that I've been viewing 'darkened' video clips all the time outside of my editor, back to Sony Vegas...

If I use a 'Computer RGB to Studio RGB levels' FX applied to the Cannon .MOV clips in the Vegas Studio  timeline, then the resulting H264 .mp4 output render is 100% ok and then also plays back ok in all the players on my PC

As a 2nd test if I use Adobe Premiere Pro CS6 and put the Cannon .MOV files straight on the Premiere timeline with no FX and render them straight out H264 .mp4, then the resulting render is 100% ok and then also plays back ok in all the players on my PC

I presume that both of the above H264 output renders result in a sRGB .mp4 file which the players are happy with?

Phew...surely this shouldn't be this difficult ??!!??

The core problem was the fact that my previewing of my camera's .MOV files on my PC desktop using WMP and VLC, resulted in me believing that contrast/levels were different to what they really were...and then doubting the NLE software...

Example of what I mean in terms of video at https://vimeo.com/51237605

Edited to add ; I've left this thread intact, to show the full dialogue, but basically, I now understand that if I try to preview .MOV video clips straight from my Canon 600D (T3i) using my Win7 PC and either Windows Media Player or VLC, the clips will be displayed wrongly in terms of contrast.

What I found out (thanks to help as below) was that the .MOV video files from an EOS camera can be incorrectly played back on a PC, giving a video preview that is wrong in terms of levels and contrast.

I had originally thought there was something wrong with my Sony Vegas Studio NLE software. But in fact I now realise that I was experiencing two 'problems' (misunderstandings on my part) all along, which caused my confusion in what contrast/levels the EOS video clips should preview.

1. Was how  Windows Media Player or VLC played back the EOS .MOV clips on my PC.

2. Was that unless you apply a Computer RGB to Studio RGB level FX to the 8-bit Sony Vegas Studio timeline, the H264 encoder will not compress the video levels of a EOS .MOV file correctly.

(I wonder how many people play EOS .MOV video files on their PC and experience 'dark' footage with incorrect contrast, without realising there is a problem in how they are previewing the video files....? Hopefully this thread will help others who experience the same problem as I did).


-----------------------------------------


Some (many?) Sony Vegas users have probably already figured this out...

But I've just wasted a few days trying to figure out why video from my Canon 600D (T3i) DSLR didn't seem to colour correct or export from Sony Vegas Studio 12 well - the resulting (rendered-out as H264 .mp4) finished video when played back on my PC or uploaded to Vimeo was crushed blacks/detail and blown highlights.

Edited to add - unless you apply a Computer RGB to Studio RGB level FX to the Sony Vegas Studio timeline, the H264 encoder will not compress the video levels of a EOS .MOV file correctly.

Why...read on below (this contains some generalisations, but you'll get my point)

A Canon EOS DSLR's video files are Computer RGB (cRGB 0-255) I use a Canon 600D but I believe the same applies to 7D, 550D, etc

When you view the .MOV clips straight from the EOS camera on a PC using windows media player etc all is well. Windows media player etc handles playback of cRGB 0-255 video correctly.

If you then load the .MOV clip into the timeline of Sony Vegas whilst using a standard default 8-bit vegas project (I don't think this applies to 32 bit projects? But these aren't the standard and I don't use them due to PC speed) the cRGB video clip is automatically converted by Sony Vegas from cRGB 0-255 into sRBG 16-235 (Studio RGB). There is no warning message or notification, his sRGB fact isn't  made clear anywhere as far as I know.

Edited to add - This statement is not correct. The .MOV stays on the vegas timeline as 0-255

So what you may ask...

Well the Sony Vegas preview monitor and the playback monitor both work as standard in cRGB colour space. So you are now viewing a sRGB video in a cRGB viewer. The end result is a dull, washed out look to someone viewing it. As a user unaware of why this is being caused, you then alter the levels and colour to correct the washed out look (wrongly as there is actually nothing 'wrong' with the video clip itself, just your viewing of it in cRGB space) and you end up applying completely wrong levels/correction as a result. Due to Sony Vegas Studio not having any meters or histograms, it makes the whole situation even more confusing.

When you then render out the Vegas timeline as a H264 video, the resulting render has the blacks/detail all wrong (amongst other things). Edited to add - unless you apply a Computer RGB to Studio RGB level FX to the Sony Vegas Studio timeline, the H264 encoder will not compress the video levels of a EOS .MOV file correctly.

The workaround answer, is to apply a 'Studio RGB to Computer RGB' level correction (there is a preset) on the main Vegas preview window. Carry out all your edits, levels and corrections, in the knowledge that your preview window is now visually 'correct' and then when you have completely finished, then remove the 'Studio RGB to Computer RGB' level correction preset, just before you render out the timeline (ie. you must remove the 'Studio RGB to Computer RGB' level correction preset you previously applied to the preview monitor).

Hopefully this info will save someone else having the same hassle.

Apologies to anyone who thinks the above is obvious and to all those out there using 'proper' software with meters etc ;-)

Mayby i'm not understanding your question fully, but isn't 1080p 1920x1080 pixels and therefore 16:9 natively anyway ?

Thanks for the confirmation. I can live with this limitation in the camera for the $ versus performance ratio it gives 

Thanks for background 1%

Ref reliable playback of CBR x1.4 video files on t3i, is there any way to get the camera to playback video files circa 60-70Mbps for more than 5 - 7 secs?

ie. Is this a limitation of the t3i processing/design, a ML bug, or finger trouble on my part?

If you go into ML's 'Movie' menu and select the first item 'Bit rate CBR' this menu item then effectively changes the video bitrate.

The standard video bitrate (CBR x 1.0) on my Canon 600D (t3i) is approx 42 Mbps.

If I select ML to a CBR x 1.4 this then results in a bitrate of around 61Mbps

However....Be aware that increasing the bitrate can have some unwanted side effects

1. You will need a very fast memory card if you want to record video at increased bitrates. I tried a Sandisk 45 MBps card in my 600D and although it did seem to record at CBR x 1.4 (approx 61Mbps), it had an annoying glitch after approx 1 second of video, which looked like some frames had dropped. I then upgraded my memory card to a Sandisk 95MBps card and it now works fine at CBR x1.4 on my 600D.

2. Turning audio 'off' in your cameras main menu will make video recording at higher bitrates easier.

3. If I play back a CBR x1.4 video on my Canon 600D, it will only play back approx 6 seconds of video before it then stops. it seems that the 600D camera cannot sustain playback of such a high bitrate video file. If I play the video file back on a PC then everything is ok and the video looks great. This is not a major problem for me. But it is annoying and means I cannot audition whole video files on the camera after shooting, without a PC on hand.

BTW I'm a noob to ML, so still learning (BTW - Many thanks to the ML guys, you rock!) but hopefully the above info helps you a bit