[WONTFIX] Any plans for 3x (Digital Zoom) DigitalZoom like T3i on 60d?

[lumiere61]

Not quite, there are some different situations:...  If Canon wants to sell feature X on some high-end camera and we bring it to some other low-end camera, we will probably hurt Canon's market, and we are not allowed to reverse engineer in this case.

Hi !  I have the bad feeling this is indeed the case.
Just look at their line of videocameras, the cXXX line.
Trivializing the issue, but not that much, the real difference between a c100 and the c500 is a raw output.
I am not an expert but explaining the price difference on a technical basis is not an easy task.
Other manufacturers, well at least one, provide a raw output almost for nothing.
Another think ... the 1DC seems to allow for better video performance than the c300 (maybe something is due also to the 10 times higher bit rate).   
Nevertheless this is the evidence that the fotocameras have a huge potential also for video.
Really huge.
Thank you very much indeed for all your efforts.
Kind regards,
giuseppe

[1%]

I feel they would axed CHDK and the original rebel hack had they been serious. I think they are amused by all of this. Almost everything I did with 600D is sitting there staring back at me in the 6D encoder. I had no access to 5dIII or even an idea on how 5dIII/6D did things but its eerily similar.

Code Select Expand

so we have figured out how to call their undocumented API

But this is what crop zoom is. All 600D seems to do is change video mode to crop. Whether there is a code path for this in other cameras or it can be messed with is unknown. So far 6D just crashes/bricks, it may not be possible. We are just changing something like setting shutter to 1/8000 in regular video mode.

For #2, movie AF is in the firmware and running so it will probably work 100%. I see its log messages. How can it be derivative work to flip a property? Canon thinks these features were crap and nobody used them but they have a following with the low-pro market. Problem is their target market is soccer moms with too much money.

If Canon wants to sell feature X on some high-end camera and we bring it to some other low-end camera, we will probably hurt Canon's market

We are doing the opposite. 650D/600D both cost 1/3 of or less than 6D/5d3. 600D had no adoption before the extra features and audio monitoring. Now it seems like everyone has one. Even putting crop on 60D (which you could just run the 600D mode change like the shortcut and see) doesn't change things as 60D > 600D in terms of price and marketing "level". They are experimenting with new features on the cheap cameras and then refining or culling them for better ones.

Implementing some feature that Canon already has on some other camera.

Not really possible. What is in the rom is in the rom unless you do it low level and at that point it is your own code. We'll never do a crop like 1DC, it has a huge sensor and much more control over how the zoom and probably encoder works. Not to mention extra processing power. It may even work a completely different way. Would be all scratch and I'm not there yet and no one else is interested.

[lumiere61]

Sorry ... but I cannot cancel my message 
Thanks and regards,
gb

[mr.vijayaraghavan]

Well... even if we knew how to do it, we need some intellectual property lawyers to tell us whether it's OK or not.

Creating new stuff from scratch is one thing, copying features from one camera to another is much more risky. We have the right to reverse engineer for interoperability, but nothing more.

Somewhere I came across this link (probably ML experts may know it already);

http://www.cineblah.com/post/142/why-the-3x-crop-mode-on-the-canon-600d-is-invaluable

I am no techy, but going by this, it is almost impossible to ipso-facto copy the 600d feature of 3x zoom on to 60d (or any other model); simply because `cropping signal from sensor' has been exclusive for 600d model.  That means MLs have to create `video zoom' for 60d (or other models) from scratch - hence, no legal issues involved, I suppose.

Sorry; I am blabbering (?) (!)

[1%]

its another mode where resizing is different. Not a signal. New cameras should be able to do it, the functions are there just might be missing handling of the mode or others stuff. On 60D is the most likely camera where it would work. it should share most of the 600D firmware.

[nanomad]

The same goes for the 1100D.  I already identified what's missing and a 1100 is far cheaper than a 60 if you want to try risky stuff

[1%]

You can unbrick 60D with C-mode. Not so with 1100D

[nanomad]

True that. But keep in mind that clear settings in photo mode didn't actually clear a wrong video mode

[Vasja]

Hi,

I have 60D, and am really interested in this feature which is really great. 600D and 60D use same CPU and sensor, so it should be possible. I suppose 600D do it like this:

NO DIGITAL ZOOM - this works the same on 60D like on 600D
1. Take 5184x2916 image around the center of the sensor
2. Scale it to 1920x1080 (or there is a function that do step 1 and 2 in one step probably)
3. Send it to video stream

DIGITAL ZOOM 2x
1. Take 2592x1458 image around the center of the sensor
2. Scale it to 1920x1080
3. Send it to video stream

DIGITAL ZOOM 2.7x
1. Take 1920x1080 image around the center of the sensor
2. Send it to video stream

DIGITAL ZOOM 10x
1. Take 518x291 image around the center of the sensor
2. Scale it UP to 1920x1080
3. Send it to video stream

Is this close to what is going on?

[scrax]

Hi,
...
Is this close to what is going on?

In getting the 1x image there are some line skipping, and the resulting image is smaller than 1920x1080 so it is interpolated before compression.
600D has no 2x or 2,7 crop mode only 3x crop and then digital zoom to 10x (so from 3,1x to 10x is same or worst than
zooming in post).
The problem is that so far the only camera with the functions that do the crop is the 600D and his firmware. So even on a hypothetical identical camera if the firmware don't have the crop function it's hard to enable it with ML (since we don't have complete control of all chip and other stuff inside the camera).

[Vasja]

Aaaaah, understood. As far as DIGIC documentation is not available, it is not doable, since functions that exist in 600D firmware does not exist in other cameras.

Will analyzing 600D firmware help - to understand how it uses DIGIC?

[scrax]

Will analyzing 600D firmware help - to understand how it uses DIGIC?

Yes, it could help, there are some dev that are doing that with IDA thanks to donators

[Vasja]

I have experience with IDA, and I would like to help if possible. Dont know ARM, but assembler is assembler - dont think its hard to learn it

[nanomad]

Not much once you get around the ARM dialect (which I find very user friendly).

[Vasja]

By the way, 60D has VGA crop mode. It may be usefull to look there.

[1%]

i see setup for vga crop mode in 6d/600d. wonder if vga crop works for 600d, i always wondered about what it was from/for.

[animanus]

Just to add one more voice... A 2x or 3x crop would be an AMAZING addition, love all the others but its one of my favourite things about the 600d, will definitely donate to help with this cause..

[animanus]

One more thing, just discovered the shortcut pressing Disp and Zoom in or Out on the 600d to activate / deactivate 3x zoom - Brilliant feature!

Do you think this would be possible during recording somehow? I can imagine in a 1 camera interview situation for example to zoom in without stopping would be very useful! Sorry if it was already requested / not possible.

[nanomad]

Unfortunately that's not possible

[scrax]

One more thing, just discovered the shortcut pressing Disp and Zoom in or Out on the 600d to activate / deactivate 3x zoom - Brilliant feature!

Do you think this would be possible during recording somehow? I can imagine in a 1 camera interview situation for example to zoom in without stopping would be very useful! Sorry if it was already requested / not possible.

I think that a good zoom lens should work if focus point is not moved when zooming, not?

[animanus]

sure! you can zoom with a lens, but i mean if you had an instant cut you could simulate a 2 camera interview setup and punch in and out with the function..

no worries anyway, but if theres still a possibility to work on a digital zoom for cameras other than the 600d i think this would make many people very happy..

[1%]

You can't change in/out of crop mode while recording. They are 2 separate modes like 24p and 30p. you can zoom in more while recording in theory but it gets ugly as the buffer shrinks.

2x doesn't exist, the only way it might is if we take complete control of the zoom functions and at that point everyone (mostly) will have crop mode because it will be figured out.

[mr.vijayaraghavan]

Not quite, there are some different situations:

1) Calling Canon API to implement some new feature, such as the advanced bracketing or the timelapse stuff. We have our own code and algorithms, we call Canon's software library routines (to take a picture, set shutter speed etc) and we have reverse engineered Canon code for interoperability (so we have figured out how to call their undocumented API).

2) Enabling some hidden feature that is already in the firmware, but not on the user interface. This is more likely to be considered a derivative work of Canon code, which is not good for us. If Canon wants to sell feature X on some high-end camera and we bring it to some other low-end camera, we will probably hurt Canon's market, and we are not allowed to reverse engineer in this case.

3) Implementing some feature that Canon already has on some other camera. If we would copy Canon code, that would be copyright infringement. If we implement it from scratch and copy only the functionality, that shouldn't infringe any copyrights, but to be fully legal it has to be implemented by someone who did not see how Canon did it (the chinese wall technique).

I know, it's not easy with all this legal uncertainity, that's why we need some intellectual property lawyers to clear it up.

Until then, we are just playing Russian roulette.

Generally speaking, Intellectual Property Right Laws are devised with the primary objective of protecting the interest of those who own it.  What interests...? Their commercial/business interests.  Normally, such laws do not come in the way of research work; pure research. 

That is why we have so many cases...so many interpretations...so many judgments.  Ultimately the judgment rests on the fundamental question as whether the Intellectual Property owner has suffered any injury/damage... and if so to what extent.  Well, it has to be proved.

ML has in fact boosted the sale of Canon cameras: Look into any forum ...and you will find a praising word for ML.  More; some have invested on Canon only on account of ML.  No need to add that the forum talks do serve as evidence.

Next: ML is not commercially exploiting by way of reverse engineering Canons.  So, from the legal angle, ML comfortably has an arguable case, if any legal battle ensues. 

The only point that may be put forth in favour of Canons is that such reverse engineering has affected some of their other products.  Well, proving that isn't an easy task.  It has to be supported by facts and figures including the general sale of cameras in that category from all manufacturers.

Ultimately, silence on the part of Canons all these years also needs to be explained.  In the commercial world, silence may give rise to a presumption of licence. 

After all; there shouldn't be any apprehensions!  Canon knows for certain that ML has given fillip to their sales.  They wouldn't hurt a golden hen!

 

[1%]

Doesn't make the problem easier to solve. If we could make it work it would have been done.

[mr.vijayaraghavan]

Doesn't make the problem easier to solve. If we could make it work it would have been done.

Well..., what may legally be possible may not be technically feasible.  I understand that; thanks.  I was just  reflecting to Alex's note on legalities.  Just a reassuring legal support to ML's achievements.