Author Topic: Canon EOS M  (Read 1090741 times)

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4450 on: September 28, 2020, 09:43:35 AM »
Thanks again for quick reply. Sorry for not making myself clear - I'm almost 70 years old, and not as bright with software as you gurus here...

Basically, what I'm looking for is a simple 3x movie crop, 25 fps, standard mov format, just like the one available in the 2018Jul03 version, but a 3x crop with 1:1 pixels that is not scaled from a slightly smaller area (1736x976 ?) of the sensor - as I understand, that's what happens in the 2018 version?

Danne

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4451 on: September 28, 2020, 09:50:28 AM »
I see.

If you are after movie crop mode in h264 mov you can do following.

1 - Tap your screen and select h264 8bit preset:


2 - While in this mode push SET button and it will enter x3 crop. Enter it again to get back into regular mv1080p.

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4452 on: September 28, 2020, 05:05:56 PM »
I set and tested "h264 8bit", but the crop [/img]video is still the same as in the 2018 version, which, AFAIK, does not use 1:1 pixels from the sensor, but uses a somewhat smaller area of the sensor (1736x976 or whatever, as 2blackbar said on Sep26), and then scales it up to 1920x1080, losing a bit of definition in the scaling.

If this new version would give true 1:1 pixels, then it would give a slightly wider view - which it does not, it's exactly the same as in the 2018 version. I shot both a still frame and a 3x crop movie from the exactly same position, and the movie is about 10% enlarged when viewed full size compared to the still. This corresponds to the "1736x976 or whatever" crop from the sensor.

What I'm hoping for is a true 1920x1080 movie crop with 1:1 pixels from the sensor, in standard h264 8bit format, without any scaling. That feature would be most useful for anyone wanting to use C-mount lenses, and wanting the best possible quality, and still shooting up to 30 min. consecutive video.

Am I totally off track here?

(I don't need all the other esoteric multi-K anamorphic formats that only can record a few seconds max...  :o )


 

Danne

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4453 on: September 28, 2020, 05:51:45 PM »
Sounds pretty much off track yes.

Walter Schulz

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4454 on: September 28, 2020, 06:08:59 PM »
Danne: Is EOS M doing "native" H.264 Full-HD the same way as all other ML supported cams (5D3 excluded)? Horizontal binning and line skipping (only every third line used)? Or is the odd one here again?

Danne

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4455 on: September 28, 2020, 06:11:20 PM »
H264 mov the same as 100d, 700d etc.

masc

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4456 on: September 28, 2020, 06:28:01 PM »
..., in standard h264 8bit format, without any scaling. ... wanting the best possible quality, and still shooting up to 30 min. consecutive video.
(I don't need all the other esoteric multi-K anamorphic formats that only can record a few seconds max...  :o )
The RAW modes are mostly continuous and offer the best quality you can get (way better then H.264 ever will be). 1920x1080 records without problem continuously. All you need is about 80GB at 1080p for 30min.
5D3.113 | EOSM.202

Walter Schulz

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4457 on: September 28, 2020, 06:41:06 PM »
Thanks, Danne!

@Janke:
As Danne wrote you are very, very lost!

Let's see what is in for you ...

1) All ML supported Canon cameras (apart from 5D3) do not record Full-HD (as in "Canon's H.264 implementation") by using 1920x1080 pixels. They use the full sensor width and height. But *not* every single pixel is used.
Horizontal pixels are binned = combined/processed resulting in something we call "native" resolution. This is (give or take)
Horizontal resolution for stills / 3 = native x resolution.
And that's always < 1920 pixels.
And lines are skipped. Only every 3rd line is used for recording H.264. And therefore "native" y resolution is about
Vertical resolution / 3 = native y resolution.
Do the math: It won't give you 1080 pixels.
To achieve Full-HD Canon does some scaling up. Software based softening applies to fight aliasing not being able to be surpressed by hardware AA-filter designed for still photo pixel pitch.

2) Canon introduced a crop mode for 600D. You press loupe/magnify in video mode and display will be filled but only a cropped area of the sensor is used. Without line skipping. Now guess how small the area might be ...

And ML found the code for that crop mode in later models 100D, 650D, 700D, EOS M and enabled it ... see feature matrix -> Movie -> Crop_mode_hack.

And that is pretty much all you can get for the foreseeable future. Take it or leave it or go raw/MLV.

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4458 on: September 28, 2020, 07:38:25 PM »
Thanks, Walter - now I'm beginning to understand (I hope...  :P )!

For Canon's own full-frame HD video, there's first horizontal binning & line skipping (which explains the aliasing), resulting in 1728 x 972, then upscaling that to 1920x1080, saved as h264.

In the following, I'm only talking about the 3x video crop:

It is already in the Canon firmware (but not implemented by Canon, only used by ML) so it apparently uses the central 1728 x 972 sensor pixels (no line skipping or horizontal binning as in "normal" HD). Then, that 1728x972 is again scaled to 1920x1080, and this is what is saved as h264. 

So the "simple" 3x crop is possible thanks to ML just utilizing the existing Canon firmware routines?

Now I understand that to get a true 1:1, 1920x1080 crop from the sensor, ML has to do its own procedures, and then save as raw.

Since I often shoot 2-hour jazz concerts (usually with three EOS-M cameras, one of them with a C-mount zoom), there would be massive raw files to convert before editing, so I was hoping for something more direct...

But, you can't get all you wish for (unless you're Jiminy Cricket...  :P )

Here is a sample from the latest, "pre-covid" concert, shot with one M1 in 3x crop mode and C-mount lens for the closeups, and for the wider views, one M3 and one M50 with Canon lenses (available in Full-HD):






Danne

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4459 on: September 28, 2020, 08:03:29 PM »
Nice music.
x3crop is 1:1 pixel and as good as it gets if you want to use H264. Good lighting and correct white balance would work nicely for this but only 8bit. If you do raw there are all kinds of modes implemented by a1ex and further refined and tested working pretty good nowadays.

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4460 on: September 28, 2020, 08:12:46 PM »
x3crop is 1:1 pixel

Are you 100% sure? I have compared, in actual size, a still cropped to 1920x1080 and a 3x crop video shot from the same position, and the 3x video is about 10% larger = so it looks like it's scaled up from 1728 x 972, i.e. not 1:1 pixels.

(And yes, the venue lighting is for the audience, not for the videographer... :( )

Walter Schulz

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4461 on: September 28, 2020, 08:21:55 PM »
1:1 = Every pixel in a given area is used. Horizontal and vertical.
And the area is 1728x972 which is native resolution.
Therefore crop factor is 3x.

1:1 does not mean "Full sensor area" and does not mean 1920x1080!

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4462 on: September 28, 2020, 08:46:31 PM »
1:1 = Every pixel in a given area is used. Horizontal and vertical.
And the area is 1728x972 which is native resolution.
Therefore crop factor is 3x.

I've always thought 1:1 means "one sensor pixel is one pixel on screen" when viewed in "actual size", but that's not true for 3x crop video, since it is up-scaled from 1728x972 to 1920x1080 in-camera.

Walter Schulz

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4463 on: September 28, 2020, 08:53:17 PM »
Yes and no, 1:1 means "no pixel left behind in a given area" and therefore one pixel on sensor = 1 pixel on display. Your display resolution is not 1920x1080, it is "native resolution" 1728x1152 for stills and 1728x972 for 16:9 ratio.
LiveView resolution = Native resolution (with regard of x-y ratio)

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4464 on: September 28, 2020, 09:12:19 PM »
I think 1:1 means 1 sensor pixel = 1 display pixel. 

We're obviously talking of different things, I'm talking about watching a 3x crop video on a display of 1920x1080 size, such as a HDTV.

In that case, one sensor pixel is larger than one display pixel, i.e. there is not a 1:1 correlation.

With a "true" 1920x1080 pixel sensor video camera (such as Canon C300) one sensor pixel is one display pixel on a 1920x1080 size display.

Also, when you watch a still photo in "actual size" on a computer display (at least it's called that on a Mac), there is a 1:1 correlation between camera sensor pixels and display pixels.

Walter Schulz

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4465 on: September 28, 2020, 09:18:44 PM »
1:1 in ML terms means there is every pixel in a given sensor area used. Period. It doesn't say anything about the tv/monitor display you are using and which resolution it has. It simply doesn't mean anything to us. Stop trying to make that connection. There is none. Not for recording.
Canon and ML store data from sensor to card. It doesn't matter one bit for this processing chain if you have a monitor or not. We are talking about which parts of the sensor are used and how they are used (or not used).

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4466 on: September 28, 2020, 10:09:24 PM »
OK, you definitely have a different terminology within this ML forum than what's used in the graphics & animation industry where I worked for 40+ years...

But it's all cleared up now, thanks to all for your help.

2blackbar

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4467 on: September 29, 2020, 12:27:18 AM »
That 1080 crop mode that we have now was kinda in ML but through 2.5k mode if you reduced resolution to 1920x1080 and that mode didnt had fluid liveview  but recently it was achieved by Bilal , he found the regs to display cropped 1:1 1920x1280 with fluid liveview , therefore we can have 1920x1080 now, but having that in H.264 is not even that interesting for most coders here since we have RAW.Sure it can save space but its only 8 bit.But i guess you still want h.264 anyway...
Im not sure if there were any experiments to write other resolutions to h.264 like 2.5k besides canon built in ones , maybe it would have to be coded from scratch (h.264 compression) and maybe mjpeg would be faster to achieve, at least its what i remember alex wrote somewhere on forums.
I dont think ML has access to canons in camera h.264 compression on that level where we can save whatever resolution we want in h.264.

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4468 on: September 29, 2020, 09:51:59 AM »
But i guess you still want h.264 anyway...

Indeed! I wouldn't fancy converting hours and hours of raw footage to a format I can edit in Final Cut Studio 7. (Yes, I'm an old dog, thus never learned the new tricks of FC X...)

So, I'm happy enough with the current 3x crop.

Big thanks to the whole community!

IDA_ML

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4469 on: September 29, 2020, 01:44:56 PM »
@Janke,

Please consider seriously what masc suggested in post #4455.  SD cards are cheap these days, you can film in 1920x1080 1x1 RAW and do all the grading in MLVApp - very easy and intuitive and free of charge.  Then you can export your footage in H.264 or H.265 which provides even compacter file size and delete the MLV originals if you don't need them.  Conversion can be done overnight while you sleep.  Please give it a try and once you see how easy you get these stunning quality videos, I am sure, you will never ever look back to your current workflow.  The only downside is the crop factor but a cheap wide angle lens will be more than enough for what you film.

Francois_lune

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4470 on: September 29, 2020, 08:09:04 PM »
Hi there, so much work done in the last weeks, that's great, thanks !

Does the 4K preset react differently than the other ones when working with the half-shutter trigger ?

I'm using the Half-shutter trigger to records MLVs, the trigger is sent from a Super-8 projector (Telecine), it's working well with the 2.5K mode and the 5K anamophic too but the 4k mode is not capturing the pictures in sync. Slowing down the projector at around 6fps and recording 10bits doesn't help.

Not sure that it's simply too much data to write or if there is something I didn't understand with this preset...
EOS-M   /  EOS 70D

Janke

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4471 on: September 30, 2020, 10:47:53 AM »
@Janke,

Please consider seriously what masc suggested in post #4455.  SD cards are cheap these days, you can film in 1920x1080 1x1 RAW and do all the grading in MLVApp - very easy and intuitive and free of charge.  Then you can export your footage in H.264 or H.265 which provides even compacter file size and delete the MLV originals if you don't need them.  Conversion can be done overnight while you sleep.  Please give it a try and once you see how easy you get these stunning quality videos, I am sure, you will never ever look back to your current workflow.  The only downside is the crop factor but a cheap wide angle lens will be more than enough for what you film.

Sorry if I still don't get it -

You say "1920x1080 1x1 RAW" and "The only downside is the crop factor" - does this mean that the 1920x1080 RAW is still recorded with the Canon FW 3x feature already in the earleir ML vesrions, and then upscaled from 1728x1152 ?

That whole 1:1 terminology makes me dizzy...  :o

Walter Schulz

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4472 on: September 30, 2020, 10:49:54 AM »
RAW is raw. There is no up-/downscaling!
There is crop mode (1:1 = every single pixel in a given frame is used) or uncropped mode (using the whole sensor area but horizontal pixel binning and vertical line skipping).
With 5D3 as exception. The only ML supported cam where uncropped mode is in fact 1920x1080.

Nigel95

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4473 on: October 02, 2020, 07:15:35 PM »
Couple of questions about this amazing little beast thanks to all the developers :)

1. Is there a way to get a useable 16mm equivalent field of view (FF) with the canon 10 - 18 @ 10mm with EOS M with Magic Lantern Raw? With the 1736x976 16:9 mode maybe?
2. Is it correct if you shoot the 2.5k raw mode that you will end up with a (canon 10-18 @ 10mm) 10x1,6 (APS-C)x3(ML)x0,71 (speedbooster) = 34mm field of view FF?
3. Any other modes with good quality for 16mm (FF) FOV?
4. Is the 1736x976 raw mode with no additional crop beside the 1,6 APS C crop? Is this mode useable in terms of aliasing (especially because this is an UWA lens), what is the max ISO that is useable with noise reduction plugin like Neatvideo? With my 200d I can clean up to ISO 3200 pretty well, but like to stay <1600.
5. What is the max focal length I can reach with a 60mm macro lens in raw with all the different modes on the EOS M. And if there is a huge crop option this also makes it harder to use in low light right? What is the useable ISO in the highest raw crop modes.
6. Is it possible to shoot 25fps with EOS M in raw?
7. Are there any 16:9 aspect ratio modes with higher resolution / quality then 1736x976?


2blackbar

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Re: Canon EOS M
« Reply #4474 on: October 02, 2020, 07:30:42 PM »
Its too time consuming to answer all your questions and do calculations so.. yes you can record 25fps in raw and this is how framing looks like in different crop modes on canon m compared to sensor sizes.
theres 2.5k crop ( wide one)and other 5xzoom crop thats 16:9 .
From what i tested, you can use lenses for 16mm cameras and 1/2'' sensors in canons 2.5k crop mode without vignetting.
I have 4-12.5mm lens thats a bit fisheye, if you could find non fisheye wide lens for tv cameras , maybe it would work but these are not HD lenses anyway, they wont be as sharp and buying new lenses for expensive tv cams  that have 1/2'' sensors is missing the point IMO.