How much is ML worth? Lens-Rentals charges $66 extra for 5 days for "hacked 5d3"

[l_d_allan]

http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/canon/cameras

~ $13 USD per day ?? (compared to non-hacked 5d3)

(If I did the math correctly? )

[aaphotog]

I dont think that they should be able to rent it out for extra.
pathetic
I believe that ML is WORTH a lot, yet they give it away for free. The nerve of the rental company to charge extra for something that they didn't pay for, something that they really don't own. I'd understand if the charge was for the memory card, but how big is that card for it to be 13 dollars a day?

[jordancolburn]

Well it means extra work for their staff to test ML, decide which builds are stable enough to rent out to working professionals, make sure the cards they send work and they have enough training material included so that a clueless joe somebody renting can avoid jacking their cameras up (ML is pretty safe, but there are some basics you need to understand about it).  So extra man hours = higher rental, I don't really see whats wrong with that.  Its like a company that provides paid support for open source software, plenty of successful businesses are based on it and there's nothing morally wrong with it.

[jordancolburn]

plus, anybody that rents a regular 5dIII could put magic lantern on it themselves for free (although I wouldn't mess around with a rented camera), you're paying for their labor, not for ML.

[AnotherDave]

I can understand an extra cost for the "risk" of installing ML… it sucks that they'd charge for it, but there is a greater chance that a novice user might damage the camera. 

I think ML is worth a whole hell of a lot.  In a lot of ways, the Red camera doesn't produce as good of an image as a 5D3, ML, and a little know-how.

[l_d_allan]

plus, anybody that rents a regular 5dIII could put magic lantern on it themselves for free (although I wouldn't mess around with a rented camera), you're paying for their labor, not for ML.

You make some excellent points on LR charging for ML ... I'm a Big Fan of Lens Rentals, especially the blogs. I've learned a lot.

I re-read my OP, and I can see that it might be interpreted as critical of LR. Au contraire. To me, self-interested invisible hand servant-leadership at nearly its best.

I wonder if Dr. Roger C. or his minions at LR checks if the boot-flag is set on non-hacked 5d3 when returned? LR would have an incentive to get a 5d3 back to "from the factory state" with no evidence it's been hacked.

[g3gg0]

im fine with that.
the money is for 80% of the customers needing help and having additional questions and
for the additional overhead of installing and checking it after customer returns.

[Canon eos m]

Yes, but they should pass in some royalty (from the profits) to the ML team since they are making money of the platform.

[Audionut]

They aren't making a profit on ML alone.  When you run a business, support costs money.

[ItsMeLenny]

Yeah I think what they're doing is alright, so long as they know about ML and can offer support on it.
If it's something that they just throw on and say "you're on your own" then it might be questionable.
But I can think of a lot of people getting stuck to ring up them and want support.
Maybe 13 USD is a little much per day once it adds up a bit, but then again, at least they aren't doubling the price.
If you're a business renting from them you could tax it all anyway.
If you're an individual you'd just have to cop it on the chin.

[DTSET123]

ML team should get  some of that money! They put so much work into it and someone else is capitalizing on it? Not fair!!!   

[ItsMeLenny]

ML team should get  some of that money! They put so much work into it and someone else is capitalizing on it? Not fair!!!

But when you buy a camera do you give money to canon or to the person who developed jpeg every time you take a picture?

[aaphotog]

But when you buy a camera do you give money to canon or to the person who developed jpeg every time you take a picture?

Theats not a good analogy. A proper analogy would be (do you give money to the people who developed the software for the canon cameras) the answer would be yes, it's a part of canon. We're not talking about giving money to the person who created dng, or who created RAW. Were tLking about giving money to the software company who allowed raw on these cameras which would be ML.

[a1ex]

Correction: ML is not a software company, it's just a group of hobbyists.

[g3gg0]

keeping us informed is highly welcome, dont misunderstand please.

but i am feeling strange when people are playing advocate for others who don't even make a mind about
i would discuss this as soon a ML developer is upset about such thing, we can discuss.

[aaphotog]

Correction: ML is not a software company, it's just a group of hobbyists.

but in comparison, it is the software that you've all put together that allows us to shoot raw, right? I'm just stating as far as analogies go, what would be better suited.


PS. I am also not upset, I jus simply think that it's a bit odd. Either way, the money wouldn't be going to me, so I can't really have an emotional attachment THAT deep. Just stating an opinion that differed from the one that I quoted. On my 2nd post in the thread

[RogerCicala]

Hi all,

Just wanted to give Lensrentals side of things. First and foremost, we wouldn't offer it unless our friends and contacts at ML said it was OK. And while I'm not personally an active participant here, I've contributed where I can, both in discussion and sending in photos and chip numbers for disassembled cameras. For me it's mostly a driving desire to unlock everything, including cameras.

As to the extra cost I will add it's absolutely not making this a high-profit venture. We've never had a problem (and still don't) with people putting ML on themselves and don't charge anything. When we do it, though, we have to be ready with phone and email support, we also have to keep a separate inventory of cameras with ML on them, cameras without it, and juggle back and forth as need be.

I don't run the business side of things, but our business model is that every item, whether a memory card, tripod, or Red Epic, generates exactly the same return on investment. They adjust prices accordingly and they do that every quarter. I actually didn't know the price difference until I saw this post, but I know those guys well enough that I can say $8 more means that ML cameras require an additional 20 minutes of support per rental. What combination of customer support, inventory control support, or technical support with the cameras in-house, I don't know.

Roger Cicala
Lensrentals.com

[DTSET123]

First and foremost, we wouldn't offer it unless our friends and contacts at ML said it was OK.

My apologies, I was not aware!

[g3gg0]

First and foremost, we wouldn't offer it unless our friends and contacts at ML said it was OK.

this said and confirmed again, we can back to the developers' view about that:
we're fine with that.

t.b.h: i personally am not just "fine with it", but i really prefer it that way.
this saves us from support request by making ML widely known. plus customers get *real* support then.
and that few bucks - i dont want to have any of it, even if its 100% of that $66.
its not about money, but respect and fun.

[darkstarr]

customer support costs

[l_d_allan]

Just wanted to give Lensrentals side of things

Thanks for the input.

I'm curious if you (Roger C. and/or LR) have any impression on the state of maturity of firmware "hacks" for Nikon, Sony, MFT, etc. cameras. I'm ignorant about them.

Also, how do you decide which version to use? "Rolling Release" for the latest/greatest so you upgrade before sending out a "hacked" 5d3? I infer LR isn't using the stable, documented, but feature-deprived version 2.3.

Have you found a specific "nightly build" to be more stable than others?

I'm curious ... if you can divulge the info ... has LR had ANY reports of bricked cameras?  Or a major glitch like something that turning off and removing the battery didn't cure?

[RogerCicala]

We've had a grand total of 1 bricked camera with ML installed. We've had 3 other cameras brick during that time period, so we don't consider that any issue at all. I will add the Canon replaced the PCB in the bricked ML camera, so I doubt it had anything to do with firmware.

Our usual practice is to install the latest firmware upgrade - after it's been out for 10 days. (Not just ML, but every manufacturer's firmware upgrade ,too. You never know when that new upgrade might cause problems for some people.)