Author Topic: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw  (Read 14069 times)

robert.roth001

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Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« on: October 10, 2013, 11:40:11 PM »
Hey guys,

I'm looking for what you guys think about this topic. I got sick of waiting for my pocket camera so I looked into the raw function not-so-long ago on my 5D. Much more stable than I expected, but I still haven't been able to try out the full power of it (only have a 133x card, just ordered a 1000x).

With how Blackmagic was going... it was obvious which I was going with. But something just threw a wrench in my plans... I just received news that my pocket camera will be shipping to me either the end of this week or beginning of next week. I am completely torn between which one to go with. For the record, I only really care about the raw function of both cameras. I will be using both for short films/a feature I have planned next year. Prores is obviously sh*t tons better than h.264, but honestly, whenever I wouldn't be filming raw either or is completely fine with me, it's never anything serious.

So lets assume the pocket camera gets updated firmware and is able to now shoot raw tomorrow (won't happen, but lets pretend). Which would be better? Lets make a list (in no particular order):
Color science: Personally, I think Blackmagic is slightly better than Canon (just based on the 2.5k version vs. current 5D raw). But they are both so good this really isn't an issue for me.
Resolution: I only film my narrative stuff in around 2.35.. so being able to do 16:9 (pocket camera) isn't a problem  to me. However the pocket still does win with the 5D's slightly lower than 1080p resolution. But lets be honest, the small difference in resolution is hardly noticeable.
Battery life: 5D obviously wins this no question. Not a huge deal, but 30 minutes (ish) per battery (pocket) is a real pain in the a**.
Overlays/Scopes/Gui: Oddly enough, again I feel the 5D wins this one. You wouldn't expect the hacked camera to have better functions but honestly... there is just more in Magic Lantern than Blackmagic. I'm not too surprised though... seems like the people here at Magic Lantern are more experienced/skilled in creating firmware than Blackmagic. :P
Raw files: 5D adds one extra step... but that's no big deal. As far as the quality of the raw files... as far as I am aware their versatility is the same across the board, no? Obviously the only difference (seemingly) will be the compressed CDNG from the pocket. Assuming Blackmagic isn't lying and it'll be lossless, then that's no problem.
Sound: 5D doesn't have sound so it loses here... but I do dual system sound anyway, and as it is, anyone who doesn't do that with the pocket is looking to get not so hot sound. So another "meh" point.
Lenses/Crop factor: Honestly, I don't see a big deal with crop factor, so long as you're aware of it and get the correct lenses. Tons of great c-mounts out there. So I think this comes down to purely personal taste, if even that. So it's a tie. 5D personally wins for me though since I already have a lens collection.
Stability: I can't say I trust the 5D more than Blackmagic when it comes to stability when shooting raw. It's just an innate uneasiness with using a hack. However, I am completely confidant with Magic Lantern, and rationally I know there is no risk (aside from running into problems while shooting, no long term risks). But even with the short term risks on set... I really still don't rationally find an issue with this. So I feel like it should be a tie, but my irrational fear gives a win to the pocket.
Light Sensitivity: 5D wins hands down. No question. Honestly, this is the main reason why I'm leaning more towards keeping my 5D and forgetting about the pocket. I understand lighting is very important, and I love doing it, but there's nothing like finding that creepy location in the middle of the woods. No way I can get lights there!


So... I hope that wasn't too long. What do you guys think? It seems like to me, price aside, these two cameras are nearly equal when it comes to what's available when shooting raw at a 2.35 aspect ratio. They both have their advantages and disadvantages, but nothing too crazy. It just feels weird to me that I would choose the hacked camera over the camera designed for the same function. What do you guys think? I'd be very interested in seeing other peoples opinions based  upon their own viewpoint/needs.

Danne

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2013, 02:26:19 AM »
Depth of field better on the 5d. Batterylife. Taking stills. Intervalometer. 5D mark 2 isnt filmimg full hd in raw but mark 3 is...

fxPPC

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2013, 08:43:56 PM »
At this point, ML is delivering new features and fixing issues faster than BM seems capable of.  I have been hemming and hawing over the BMPC4K and the 5DmkIII. Large sensor beats 4K crop sensor, especially when it has better low light and dynamic range. Sound will come, MLV will come, and I'm willing to bet that both will arrive before BM starts to reliably ship large quantities of cameras. I'm getting into steadicam work, and preserving the ability to do wide shots is clutch. When faced with a VistaVision format camera that shoots 1080p24 (and with spanning, soon to be higher) 14bit RAW for around $3000, every other camera starts to look less impressive.

I always said that the biggest looser in the MLRAW breakthrough was Black Magic.
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5D3, 7D, 550D. Rokinon Cine DS set, Canon L set, wide range of Russian and Contax-converted (Leitax modified) glass.

maxotics

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2013, 11:34:19 PM »
Another positive the EOS-M, which shoots great 720p, at many aspect ratios.  With an adapter, same canon lenses for a body that sells used for about $250 now.  And REALLY small.  Same workflow as 5D, except for focus pixel (pink dot removal).  With the same dynamic range, the difference between 1080p and 720p is often not noticeable (at least to me).  Also, if you need two cameras, good chance you have a friend with a Canon.  Go try to find a MFT BMPCC for your m43 lenses.   

The biggest plus for the BMPCC is that you don't have to go into "crop mode" to stop worrying about moire, which is a big risk in every Canon except the 5d3. 

gary2013

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2013, 05:03:46 AM »
ditto on the EOS M. The workflow can get you down, but the results are worth it. I am just shooting more carefully so I only have to process a small amount compared to how I used to shoot. Also, the money you will save buying the M allows you to purchase some other needed things. I got the M with the kit 22mm and I found a new EFM 18-55mmm IS for $135 instead of $200. A variable ND with a step up 43 to 52 mm ring covers a good range to shoot. Also having the crop mode gives me a approx a 150mm telephoto with IS.

Gary

robert.roth001

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2013, 12:27:49 PM »
I didn't know that about the M, pretty cool! Moire/aliasing is definitely something I forgot about with the 5D. What do you guys think about the mosaic filter thing though? Looks like it gives pretty decent results. Most likely still sticking with the 5D though because of the low light.

PressureFM

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2013, 03:07:28 PM »
The EOS-M is a horrible choice for Magic Lantern RAW.

Bad aliasing, limited to SD speed of 40MB/s.

Francis

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2013, 03:29:39 PM »
Not sure how you are comparing the color accuracy of a camera you don't have yet, recording in a format it doesn't support.

But yes the 5d2 is still a very good camera.

Andy600

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2013, 04:06:22 PM »
Check out Dave Dugdale's review http://www.learningdslrvideo.com/black-magic-pocket-review/

Also, compressed raw is in beta with some BM testers and should be out soon. John Brawley posted a few raw shots but don't have a link to hand.

With the newly released BMPCC compatible battery grips that use Canon batteries and the raw FW upgrade coming soon, the BMPCC is going on my list to go with my 50D. TBH I still want a MKIII though. I think it has the best image  ::)
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

robert.roth001

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2013, 07:03:55 AM »
I'm comparing color accuracy to the BMCC. It's a known fact that the colors are going to be nearly identical on the pocket, and given what we've seen from prores, that's how it is. Also, I've checked out the DNGs from Brawley, they're not bad, a little soft though. Hard to judge it just off of 5 stills though, no idea what the lenses were and all the other factors.

Kharak

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2013, 11:30:09 AM »
but that crop factor... uurgh, makes me sick :)

5D RAW II all the way on my end.
once you go raw you never go back

johansugarev

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2013, 07:36:32 PM »
but that crop factor... uurgh, makes me sick :)

5D RAW II all the way on my end.
It's designed for 16mm glass. The crop factor is zero.

maxotics

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2013, 08:33:08 PM »
The EOS-M is a horrible choice for Magic Lantern RAW.

No aliasing in crop mode.  For the person who can't fit a 5D3 in their pocket, or budget, the EOS-M with 11-22mm IS lens give 720p 12 stops of dynamic range with image stabilization for about $650 ($250 body plus $400 glass).  Probably smaller than the BMPCC.

I have a 50D too.  Between about 1080p that I won't carry, and 720p that I will, I make a "horrible" choice every day but love it! ;)

Kharak

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2013, 10:31:38 PM »
It's designed for 16mm glass. The crop factor is zero.

Don't wanna start an argument.. But I am pretty sure that if I put a 16 mm on a Pocket and the same on a 5D, I will get much wider field of view on the 5D. e.g. better depth of field.
once you go raw you never go back

robert.roth001

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #14 on: October 14, 2013, 05:13:50 AM »
Don't wanna start an argument.. But I am pretty sure that if I put a 16 mm on a Pocket and the same on a 5D, I will get much wider field of view on the 5D. e.g. better depth of field.

No no, you are correct. But what I mean is that a 16mm on a c-mount/ super 16mm lens is going to be designed to look like a 50mm on full frame. It's also around the same same price as an equal quality 50mm (obviously this depends greatly, but in general that's what I've found). So the normal focal lengths anyone needs is easy to get on a super 16 sized sensor, so long as you buy the lenses designed for that size sensor. The only thing is that it gets pretty pricey when trying to go ultra wide at that size... but it can be expensive to get ultra wide in full frame as well so I mean... not a big deal. Also, cinema has never used a "sensor" the size of the 5D, e.g. photography fullframe. Super35 film is about the size of the aps-c sensor, so anything bigger than that depth of field wise is actually a little excessive in my point of view. Also, depth of field relies so much more on the f-stop than the sensor size.

All I really mean by this is that sensor size isn't really a big deal at all, what matters is understanding it and getting lenses designed for the sensor. If I had no lenses and was deciding between cameras I wouldn't look at sensor size at all, I would just pick which one wins in the other specs and get lenses that best fit the sensor.

p.s. No need for there to be a fight, just intellectual discussion. :)

Kharak

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2013, 09:48:37 AM »
p.s. No need for there to be a fight, just intellectual discussion. :)

What I meant about argument, was that I didn't wanna hijack the thread and start a discussion on sensor sizes and so on. :)

f-stop is important, yes, but I think a cinematographer/videographer with a Pocket Camera will be even more dependent on a big aperture for that bokeh in the background in contrary to one with a Full Frame camera, who can move very close to the subject and get bokeh on a relative smaller aperture.

Yet again, this all comes down to what you wanna use your camera for. I mean, the Pocket camera is very small, don't think it fits in your Pocket though with a lens attached to it. But if I had to choose between the Pocket and a 5D for a vacation, I'd probably go with the Pocket. Also in other situations or places that could be riske'ay, poor contries, wars, etc.. The Pocket would not acquire too much attention in contrary to a bulky DSLR or maybe even bigger cameras.
once you go raw you never go back

alsey7

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #16 on: October 15, 2013, 05:30:29 AM »
I've looked at pocket camera on my next purchase. But have they updated so it has lossless Dng support? If not sorry I won't but it other codec is terrible I can't go back from raw. Raw is just clean. I'll just buy another 7d

robert.roth001

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Re: Pocket camera vs. 5D II Raw
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2013, 05:35:04 AM »
I've looked at pocket camera on my next purchase. But have they updated so it has lossless Deng support? If not sorry I won't but it other codec is terrible I can't go hack from raw. Raw is just clean. I'll just buy another 7d
They're beta testing raw for the pocket right now, and it should be released very soon. The other codec is still very good though, pretty close to raw.