Canon 70D

[ShootMeAlready]

Off Topic:

Anyone else having issues with the 70D dropping frames in vid??

For me, the first thing to check is the card.   Is it close to full? writes slow down when its close to full (5% or less free).  What's its write speed?  I have been using a 20 mb/s write speed video 24fps FHD without issue.  And its the write speed that matters, most cards advertise the read speed.  Amazon had some nice prices on Sandisks Extreme Pro UHS-I 95mb/s read, 90 mb/s write.   

[TomJ]

Got a fist full of Sony 32gb class 10 cards a while back that I use. 94mb/s read, 45mb/s write.

But being full might just have been it. Was also shooting at 24fps FHD, but card filled and had to swap out, I remember that. Just as I was finishing an event. Might have been that. Thanks for the tip, never had issue with that before (losing data as a card filled), but I'll test it out and make sure I swap cards at an opportune time (as I usually do when covering an event that I can't make-up).

[ShootMeAlready]

I have only had the "near full" scenario happen on my T3i with ML with a 16GB slower card.  Strange things happened as it over-wrote some of ML, and my display went foobar, and it noticeably slowed down.  There was some free space when I checked in Windows on the card but less than 5%.  Never tried it with the 70D, but with lots of video strange things could happen, but even if it just slows down that alone would drop frames.

[alexoki]

Does anyone have an idea what sort of max recording time we might expect from 70d RAW when/if it arrives? I know the hardware/ SD card buffer/write speed will have a significant impact. Also would be great if Giovanni can pop in here just to give us some sort of update on the process. Don't get me wrong, I fully understand it is a time consuming process but a quick update would be appreciated.

[ShootMeAlready]

It seems to be in a holding pattern ...
https://bitbucket.org/hudson/magic-lantern/branch/70d-support

[nikfreak]

if someone can message me (PM) a ROM dump then I might look into missing stubs. You miss some, right? Or where is 70D builds stuck? Hello World?

[TomJ]

Dev? Radio silence?

[X-STATE]

seriously, dev.. please, give us at least some information

[Dns]

We need some information , not ETA ... Dev please

[ShootMeAlready]

OK, so I have done quite a bit of testing with my 600D/T3i in raw.  Based on my testing I can start to project what to expect from the 70D raw (assuming some dev can deliver such a build for our humble testing).  Certainly the continuous focus is the main draw (for now and in this snack bracket). Firstly lets deal with the pretenders, the Black Magic pocket camera, the sensor is smaller (3/4) and it has 12 bit colour depth. If you compare to 12 bit depth and bigger aps-c sensor (I realize this is new ground for aps-c users who keep getting put in our IQ place by FF users) then you realize size and depth both matter.  Personally I would rather buy a used 50D and shoot in 14bit raw with dual iso, then a 12 bit Black magic 3/4 sensor anything camera.  I mean if you are going to wait that long to process your film then why stop at 12 bit blah!I think some H264/MOv of the 70D can match 12 bit raw blah adequately.  Its in the physics 14bits beats 12bits, so sorry BMPC users suck it up.

So lets cut to the chase, the bottle neck on the 70D in raw is the SD card write speed, which is 40-45 mb/s.   This is the albatross we have to deal with.
This is what I learned from my 600D/T3i:
1. Anamorphic means higher resolution than 16:9.  If you want to shoot a film, then 2.39 aspect ratio is your friend. I am not sure what the highest ratio for the 70D will be, but I can tell you that with the 600Dat half the SD write speed, it can go 1142x482, which is 80% of 720p anamorphic.
2. With a SD write speed of 40-45mb/s, your best option for 16:9 aspect is 720p (1280x720). Compare to the 650D which has the same SD controller speed.  The 650D supports continuous 720P HDDVD  at 24 fps (cinematic quality). That's what to expect with the 70D.
3. Now lets say, you want to use the awesome continuous focus of the 70D at some high frame rate or 1080p res., then you may think that based upon a slow SD write speed, you are SOL.  Well if you have a shot that is slow camera movement and slow motion (OK I mean an establishing shot), then you can shoot raw at higher res. with a slower frame rate (on my 600D I was able to shoot 1600x670 at 12fps), perhaps even 1080p anamorphic (I am not sure what's the limit but with anamorphic you have a great chance to get to max. res.), then in post interpolate frames to add the missing frames.  As long as your shot is slow camera movement and slow motion this will work (Ok so lets just say real estate videos of properties are in the bag).
 
PS: Did I mention that dual iso (11EV) 14 bit raw blows the snot out of a Black magic pocket camera 12 bit raw with a teeny-weeny sensor ... So if you shoot dual iso raw be prepare to be gob-stopped.

Correction:  Use the right tool for the right job.  Up to 14EV shooting video 14bit RAW can be had for 43rds, aps-c, or  FF cameras, so its not a limiting factor.
43rds provides super 16mm DOF / look.  Useful for run & gun documentary style.  Its superior sharpness /deep DOF good for landscapes with detail.  Its common 4K resolution is good for cropped shooting (i.e. action scenes shot wide then cropped in post).
APS-C is best choice for the Super 35mm look of classic film. Also a good choice for wildlife and sports shooters stills, as the aps-c 1.6X added reach, saves huge $$$ on telephoto zooms and much lighter/smaller lenses help out in the field.
FF is best choice for stills with shallow DOF, and low-light. Its use in video permits low light shooting, shallow DOF, wider FOV for an "anamorphic like effect" all creative tools permitting a different look than the classic 35mm look.

[claudelec]

You say:
"So lets cut to the chase, the bottle neck on the 70D in raw is the SD card write speed, which is 40-45 mb/s.   This is the albatross we have to deal with."

Perhaps i missed something, but i never seen this limit concerning 70d, processor has changed from 650d, 700d, 60d, so the limit could be the write speed from the card, not from the 70d itself.  Some SD cards are now able to write at 90 MB/s and this could be an interesting improvment.

[claudelec]

I know that the SD card controller is the main responsible, not the processor itself, but i have not the information that it is the same controller that in the 650d. Did you get this info and where?

[X-STATE]

The processor (DIGIC) has nothing to do with it. It's the card interface.
As of today there are 2 speed limits detected (SD-card): Low end with about 21 MByte/s when writing. High end with about 41 MByte/s.

5D3's sd card interface is limited to 21 MByte. DIGIC 5+ doesn't help here ...

Walter, as I remember, you have contacts with the developers Do you have any news about the status of the port on the ML 70D?

[X-STATE]

Yes. I post messages here and sometimes there is some interaction between some guy who happens to be a developer and me.
Why don't you send a message to Nanomad and ask for yourself? But I have the vague recollection about Nanomad taking some time off. I hope he is enjoying it and it's not because of work/study/... related priority stuff.

Ciao
Walter

So I do not ask to Nanomad he dropped everything and worked only port. I just thought that maybe you have some information 

[Jackeatley]

OK, so I have done quite a bit of testing with my 600D/T3i in raw.  Based on my testing I can start to project what to expect from the 70D raw (assuming some dev can deliver such a build for our humble testing).  Certainly the continuous focus is the main draw (for now and in this snack bracket). Firstly lets deal with the pretenders, the Black Magic pocket camera, the sensor is smaller (3/4) and it has 12 bit colour depth. If you compare to 12 bit depth and bigger aps-c sensor (I realize this is new ground for aps-c users who keep getting put in our IQ place by FF users) then you realize size and depth both matter.  Personally I would rather buy a used 50D and shoot in 14bit raw with dual iso, then a 12 bit Black magic 3/4 sensor anything camera.  I mean if you are going to wait that long to process your film then why stop at 12 bit blah!I think some H264/MOv of the 70D can match 12 bit raw blah adequately.  Its in the physics 14bits beats 12bits, so sorry BMPC users suck it up.

So lets cut to the chase, the bottle neck on the 70D in raw is the SD card write speed, which is 40-45 mb/s.   This is the albatross we have to deal with.
This is what I learned from my 600D/T3i:
1. Anamorphic means higher resolution than 16:9.  If you want to shoot a film, then 2.39 aspect ratio is your friend. I am not sure what the highest ratio for the 70D will be, but I can tell you that with the 600Dat half the SD write speed, it can go 1142x482, which is 80% of 720p anamorphic.
2. With a SD write speed of 40-45mb/s, your best option for 16:9 aspect is 720p (1280x720). Compare to the 650D which has the same SD controller speed.  The 650D supports continuous 720P HDDVD  at 24 fps (cinematic quality). That's what to expect with the 70D.
3. Now lets say, you want to use the awesome continuous focus of the 70D at some high frame rate or 1080p res., then you may think that based upon a slow SD write speed, you are SOL.  Well if you have a shot that is slow camera movement and slow motion (OK I mean an establishing shot), then you can shoot raw at higher res. with a slower frame rate (on my 600D I was able to shoot 1600x670 at 12fps), perhaps even 1080p anamorphic (I am not sure what's the limit but with anamorphic you have a great chance to get to max. res.), then in post interpolate frames to add the missing frames.  As long as your shot is slow camera movement and slow motion this will work (Ok so lets just say real estate videos of properties are in the bag).
 
PS: Did I mention that dual iso (11EV) 14 bit raw blows the snot out of a Black magic pocket camera 12 bit raw with a teeny-weeny sensor ... So if you shoot dual iso raw be prepare to be gob-stopped.

Yeah yeah.... The blackmagic is producing 12 bit log, the canons produce 14bit Lin.  When you put that blackmagic footage back into resolve it "unpacks" to 16 bit lin. Therefore making it better...

It also has a super 16 sensor. Which is a long established cinema format with a wide range of glass.

The 50d also does not support dual ISO video.

It also in its aps-c mode us limited to around 1500px rather than the 1920 the blackmagic produces.

So all in all a pretty sill argument you made.

[mocenigo]

PS: Did I mention that dual iso (11EV) 14 bit raw blows the snot out of a Black magic pocket camera 12 bit raw with a teeny-weeny sensor ... So if you shoot dual iso raw be prepare to be gob-stopped.

Does this mean that you have dual iso working already on the 70D? If so, how does it work? per "dual pixel" line (so the two photosites under the same microlens are binned and thus it works like on previous cameras) or can you actually read the two photosites under a microlens individually and apply different gains to them?

 Roberto

[Widget]

Firstly lets deal with the pretenders, the Black Magic pocket camera, the sensor is smaller (3/4) and it has 12 bit colour depth. If you compare to 12 bit depth and bigger aps-c sensor (I realize this is new ground for aps-c users who keep getting put in our IQ place by FF users) then you realize size and depth both matter.  Personally I would rather buy a used 50D and shoot in 14bit raw with dual iso, then a 12 bit Black magic 3/4 sensor anything camera.  I mean if you are going to wait that long to process your film then why stop at 12 bit blah!I think some H264/MOv of the 70D can match 12 bit raw blah adequately.  Its in the physics 14bits beats 12bits, so sorry BMPC users suck it up.

I own a BMPCC and a 50D and I'm calling you out on this post:

- The sensors in the BMD cameras are 16-bit. The hardware in them encodes that 16-bit linear signal into a 12-bit log CinemaDNG, which maintains all the information through the post chain. It works seamlessly and provides just as much information as MLV 14-bit, if not more.

- BMD cameras use the entire sensor rather than line skipping or pixel binning, which means you get a really accurate image at the full resolution of the sensor. I'd put a BMPCC against a 5D Mk.3 in resolved detail any day and I think you'd be surprised at how well the BMPCC performs.

- What's wrong with smaller sensors again? There are wide angle lenses for the Micro4/3 mount, the glass is fast and sharp, and the MetaBones Speedbooster gives you a ridiculous amount of options. Besides, the Super16 image circle has a long and storied history in cinema and creates beautiful images.

- Dual ISO is a great idea, no doubt about it, but there are very real tradeoffs with high frequency detail in your images. It's good to have in an emergency but I couldn't see myself using it unless I had no other option. It's also only available on two cameras as far as I know (the 5D Mk.3 and 7D).

- The BMD cameras are a stable, proven platform to work with in a production setting. With all due respect to all Magic Lantern developers, ML is experimental. The BMD cameras aren't perfect but when I use them I know I am using a camera that was explicitly designed to record RAW footage for motion picture cinematography. It shows in the workflow, the stability of the software, and the camera interface design.

Once you get some more experience under your belt I'm sure you'll realize that cameras are tools and this whole dick-waving competition is pointless.

EDIT by SDX: Watch your tone!

[ShootMeAlready]

Does this mean that you have dual iso working already on the 70D? If so, how does it work? per "dual pixel" line (so the two photosites under the same microlens are binned and thus it works like on previous cameras) or can you actually read the two photosites under a microlens individually and apply different gains to them?

 Roberto

I have tested on the T3i/600D, in mov, raw, and dual iso raw.  It is not working on the 70D yet, but the SD controller write speeds are similar to the 650D, so one can expect 40-45 mb/s.  That means to expect continuous 720p raw (16:9).  It is likely that anamorphic (2.39) will be very close to 1080p. Would love to find out what the 650D max. pixels for continuous anamorphic @ 2.39???.  My observations are that raw beats mov, especially in lower light (everything else being equal).  Dual iso raw beats raw by about 11ev on my T3i (its some what like having a bigger sensor, in that it handles lower light better  yielding richer luminance depth).  The dual iso raw workflow, is one extra process on the DNG pics.  It takes the dual iso values (100/1600 etc.), and combines both (need to check raw dual iso threads for the details of how it works).  I have tried HDR video, and its more finicky, and does not handle fast movement (adds blur) so its only good for slow moving master shots.  The dual iso, however handles motion no problem.   The one area the dual iso raw is weak from what I tested was moving high contrast edges/lines (some moire on the fringes, we are talking  bright white shirt against dark black background in motion), suggest its best to shoot those in vanilla raw or perhaps 3X zoom mode ... hmmm.         

[alexoki]

I think this is poor etiquette on the developers part especially considering the 70d was funded by the community. Not pressuring the dev for an ETA just asking him to pop in here and give us some form of update and whether or not he thinks the RAW port is possible and if he has taken up the coding offers of help from this thread.
The current route of a complete communication blackout is not helpful. Personally I am only holding onto my 70d in the hope of gaining some form of RAW recording support. If this is not possible or the current developer is not continuing with the process then I would like to know as I will sell my 70d now as technology depriciates in value in light of new releases.

[X-STATE]

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=8419.msg124618#msg124618

The matter of ETA is covered in ML's FAQ: When it is ready!
You have two options (at least): Wait for something to come without the last chance to get an ETA. May come soon, later or not.
Or go for something offering the options you want to have.

Or in short: "Are we there yet?" won't accelerate your ride.

we wait, hope and trust.

[ShootMeAlready]

Firstly lets deal with the pretenders, the Black Magic pocket camera, the sensor is smaller (3/4) and it has 10 bit colour depth. If you compare to 10 bit depth and bigger aps-c sensor (I realize this is new ground for aps-c users who keep getting put in our IQ place by FF users) then you realize size and depth both matter.  Personally I would rather buy a used 50D and shoot in 14bit raw with dual iso, then a 10 bit Black magic 3/4 sensor anything camera.  I mean if you are going to wait that long to process your film then why stop at 10 bit blah!I think some H264/MOv of the 70D can match 10 bit raw blah adequately.  Its in the physics 14bits beats 10bits, so sorry BMPC users suck it up.

PS: Did I mention that dual iso (11EV) 14 bit raw blows the snot out of a Black magic pocket camera 10 bit raw with a teeny-weeny sensor ... So if you shoot dual iso raw be prepare to be gob-stopped.

So I wanted to correct my post.  I looked a lot more into the 10bit raw vs 14bit raw, and have to admit that after the compression is taken into consideration, that its not the issue.
For those who wish to read about sensor size, and its impact here are some links & key points.
Here are some crop ratios:  5D MkIII  FF sensor crop 1.0,  70D APS-C crop 1.6, BMD CC crop 3.02.  The difference in the the BMPCC is about the same difference as an APS-C is to a FF.
So what does that mean, here is a highly technical university of chicago paper analysis.  For those who are not inclined to scientific papers, just go the end and read his Bottom Line conclusion.
 http://theory.uchicago.edu/~ejm/pix/20d/tests/noise/noise-p3.html#bitdepth~  The bottom line finding:
- "bigger sensors yield higher quality images, by capturing more signal (photons)."  Of course Ive watched many FF vs APS-C video comparisons which illustrate this finding.
- He also mentioned that larger sensors capture more image in lower light (but again anyone of a 100 videos on the subject demonstrate this).
A few more well known points gleaned from Wikipedia (included as a nominal reference). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_sensor_format
- increased noise SNR (proportional to square of crop factor), which is a bad thing.
- diffraction impacts sharpness, which increases with smaller sensors, which is a bad thing.
Now lets look at a rather interesting comparison done by Blunty (an Aussie photo blogger), comparing the BMD (the Aussie company). Surely if anyone was to be bias Blunty should be.
Blunty Compares 70D with BMPC -   

- What I see in every shot of the BMPCC is that its washed out colour depth compared to all the other APS-C cameras including the 70D.  No surprise the science suggests that.
- The BMPC handled detail in the shadows, that was its main advantage, perhaps due to raw vs H264? Not quite sure to be honest (?).
Another video, BMPCC vs 60D -

- This uses a 60D its not a bad 70D comparison point.  The BMPCC has very washed out colour, flatter pic, and lower sharpness (again agrees with the science).

SpeedBooster - for BMPC
- This is rather fabulous enhancement for the BMPC.  Prices around $660USD, was what I saw, and provides a 1.75 crop but it does not increase the sensor size.  Its pretty much essential for BMPC.
- It improves the lens list and provides awesome fast apertures.  These create a niche where the BMPCC has some of the fastest aperture glass !!! (turns a sigma f/1.8 18-35mm zoom lens into f/1.0).  It WINS in this aspect.
- However wonderful the low light glass ability, the colour depth and image quality is still constrained by a small sensor.  Scooped from a pro blog, 
One has to to shoot using the waveform, with everything "over exposed" and pull back in production. Need an external monitor one on back not useful.
"You have to get every photon on sensor you can".  Life is not good in this aspect. 
- PS: Strange thing about the BMPC is that BMD dont provide a Canon lens list, and when you read through the blogs you keep finding one saying yeah a lens works and others finding well not in every aspect
on many lenses so its never clear what glass fully works???

Correction: GH4 is better than BMPC.  If you want to shoot super 16mm digital equivalent, with extra goodies like 4K picture, and FHD 60fps its an affordable choice. Run & gun documentary style its a great choice.

[TomJ]

..... And a 70D with dual iso raw 720p@24fps (when it arrives), auto-focus, with 3X lossless zoom for anti-aliasing, even better still for film ...

When it arrives....

Till then, it's still world-class for film (100% of this with the 70D and no color grading or other post - that's just not my thing)

[Jackeatley]

Now a wise man once said that,
"Did I mention that dual iso (11EV) 14 bit raw blows the snot out of a Black magic pocket camera 10 bit raw with a teeny-weeny sensor ... So if you shoot dual iso raw be prepare to be gob-stopped."
- Well it turns out that the 50D, which can be had for about $500USD, has 11EV of dynamic range from dual iso in raw, and combined it tends to blow the ... well you know. 
Lets see, bigger sensor and 11EV more dynamic range (which makes an APS-C seem closer to a FF),  all for less than a quarter of the money of a BMPCC+speedbooster+monitor+rig (yeah it needs a rig!).
... hmmm tough choice.  And a 70D with dual iso raw 720p@24fps (when it arrives), auto-focus, with 3X lossless zoom for anti-aliasing, even better still for film ... 

Still doesn't change the fact that the 50d can't do dual iso video, its a dead horse point.

The smaller sensors have advantages too, they increase depth of field making critical focus easier, they also tend to make everything look sharper for that reason, which is why all the blackmagic pocket vs other things look sharp because they haven't compensated for the DOF change.

[ShootMeAlready]

Interesting point on the sharpness of smaller sensors being better suited for critical focus (any references on that? its interesting).  But the part that confuses me on that is why FF can out sharpen aps-c often ?(except for the sigma 18-35 f/1.8 comparisons which is because of the superior glass).

I dont own a 50D.  But from what I read it was one of the first to offer dual ISO.  Here is one video where he used 50D for dual iso raw 

I like dual iso raw for smaller sensors because it gets a richer luminance, and starts to recover detail in shadows.  Its a much better comparison to the BMPCC raw.
However before one gets hooked into thinking everything must be dual iso raw, let me say that its a whole lot easier with vanilla raw.  Not every shot will benefit from dual ISO.
I think the true champ for aps-c raw is the 7D (near 1080p continuous), but its still a rather expensive camera especially if you already have invested in a 70D.
When I have the extra cash lying around, then I would go for a 7D over a 50D.  Until then I will explore raw and ML with my 600d.
However if you were buying right now and wanted a B cam that utilises aps-c glass and does raw, the 50D is best bang for the buck.
 
 
Correction: for 7D & 50D dual ISO is still pics only sadly not video ...
Dont think I would buy a 7D for raw, as its rather expensive for what you get. D50 best aps-c raw bang for buck.
5D MarkII used, is better buy than a 7Dfor raw, and slightly out performs for about same money used. 
5D MarkII is FF, so you have to consider your lens costs to cover your FF lengths.

[ayshih]

Still doesn't change the fact that the 50d can't do dual iso video, its a dead horse point.

I dont own a 50D.  But from what I read it was one of the first to offer dual ISO.

To clarify this particular point, the 50D can do dual ISO *photos*, but cannot (yet) do dual ISO *video*.