Author Topic: How to review RAW footage in Camera?  (Read 11467 times)

AsherVast

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How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« on: September 17, 2013, 09:12:34 PM »
Let me first say that this is quite possibly the biggest breakthrough since the DSLR revolution began with the 5D2 but there seems to be a pretty big drawback to this feature, namely the inability to review footage until you've backed up the RAW footage and converted the images into a sequence on a computer.

Anyone who has been on a shoot before realizes the importance of being able to review your footage in camera that you just captured to verify it actually looks good. Sure, we could stop shooting, back up the footage, convert it and review on a computer but that's presents a pretty serious stoppage in the workflow of shooting a scene of you have to do that every time you want to see what you just shot. Is there any plan for a work around or does anyone have any idea on how to review the footage you just shot in camera?

Rewind

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2013, 09:18:20 PM »
Quote
Anyone who has been on a shoot before realizes...
Do you really think no one of us never been on a shoot before?
There are at least two options to review your raw files in camera: the file manager module and the option inside the raw_rec module itself.

AsherVast

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2013, 09:44:03 PM »
I'm aware you can review the dng images individually but what about the whole video sequence? Is it possible to review that in camera?

Rewind

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2013, 09:55:24 PM »
I'm talking about raw video indeed

AsherVast

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2013, 10:09:00 PM »
I'm not seeing this in the current release. Which section in the menu can you review the video?

Rewind

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2013, 10:16:19 PM »
Jesus, man, if you figured out how to shoot raw video, you'd be definetly can realize how to review it, because there is an option right inside raw_rec module, called 'Playback'. You can playback the last shot raw file with it. Also there is a module 'File manager', just enable it, go to debug menu, and you'll find it there. With file manager you can playback every raw video you want, not only last shot.

I assume you are using nightly builds

Midphase

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2013, 10:33:08 PM »
Rewind,

Back off a bit.

Reviewing skippy b/w playback isn't what the guy is talking about, and I agree with him. It's the reason why ML is a hack while the Blackmagic Cinema Camera or the RED are official production-ready products.

The truth is that there are substantial compromises that need to be made when deciding to use ML raw, and while some of these compromises might be solved (such as the lack of audio recording), some of them might simply not be possible (like smooth 24p color playback of recorded footage).

There are a couple of solutions, one available right now, and one on the horizon.

1. Get yourself an Atomos Ninja, record video on it at the same time as raw, and use it as a playback device.

2. Wait until a certain popular Mac conversion app gains the ability to playback raw files (in color at 24p). This involves actually taking the CF card out of the camera, and plugging it into a nearby laptop, but at least no conversion is needed and playback is instantaneous.

DjJuvan

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2013, 06:30:22 PM »
buying Atomos ninja to record useless footage with overlay information is absurd. Until ML is updated to newer version of firmware, buying Atomos is out of the posibilities.


What about recording h264 on secondary SD card. I still don't get it, why there isn't a function to make double recording (RAW doesn't use any processor, and SD card is unused by any writing to it). You can then check what you recorded through h264 videos.

eatstoomuchjam

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2013, 06:58:05 PM »
Even though you can't play back smoothly in camera, if you have a decent GPU in your laptop, you can use Davinci Resolve to play back the files in nearly realtime after shooting.

Midphase

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #9 on: September 18, 2013, 07:15:41 PM »
What about recording h264 on secondary SD card. I still don't get it, why there isn't a function to make double recording (RAW doesn't use any processor, and SD card is unused by any writing to it). You can then check what you recorded through h264 videos.

Said with the same clueless arrogance that typically accompanies most of those "duh" suggestions. Why do you assume the developers must be so thick and closed minded that they have yet to think of such a brilliant solution? Don't you think that if they could they would have implemented this a long time ago (not to mention that this would only function on the 5D3)?

Midphase

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #10 on: September 18, 2013, 07:22:34 PM »
Even though you can't play back smoothly in camera, if you have a decent GPU in your laptop, you can use Davinci Resolve to play back the files in nearly realtime after shooting.

Yes, but right now that requires the following steps:

1. remove the CF card from the camera and attach it to a nearby computer on the set.

2. run raw2cdng or RAWMagic or other to convert the footage into CDNG and copy it onto a local drive

3. Open Resolve, import the footage and playback (assuming you have a fairly fast computer with a decent GPU to give you as close to 24p playback as possible).

Meanwhile watch everyone on the set begin chatting about the latest episode of Breaking Bad or head to the crafts table.

Not really workable on any time crunched production, the best we could hope for is to cut the steps down to 1 with a (hopefully) forthcoming update on an app which I have seen can do that.

Andy600

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #11 on: September 18, 2013, 08:41:24 PM »
If you're on a Windows system you can just run BATCHelor. It reads raw files direct from the card, converts to DNGs and produces Cineform proxies that can be previewed in Windows media player without the need to load Resolve or an NLE.
Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

AsherVast

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2013, 10:14:53 PM »
I understand how to convert the dng images to video and review on a computer but that is very costly in mid shoot. I don't have time in mid shoot to pull out the card, upload the images to a computer and convert them just to see the video I just shot while the client is breathing down my neck and asking why we can't just review the footage in camera to which I have to explain: We're using a hack to shoot your video and we can't watch the footage until we're done filming. Based on the info I've heard from people in this thread there is no way around this problem.

Andy600

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2013, 10:19:23 PM »
ML raw isn't the best option for those kind of 'time critical' jobs. It's more like shooting on film.

Colorist working with Davinci Resolve, Baselight, Nuke, After Effects & Premier Pro. Occasional Sunday afternoon DOP. Developer of Cinelog-C Colorspace Management and LUTs - www.cinelogdcp.com

Midphase

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #14 on: September 19, 2013, 04:33:28 AM »
I don't have time in mid shoot to pull out the card, upload the images to a computer and convert them just to see the video I just shot while the client is breathing down my neck and asking why we can't just review the footage in camera to which I have to explain: We're using a hack to shoot your video and we can't watch the footage until we're done filming.

Yeah, well...I think you just answered your own question then. What part of the word "hack" doesn't register?

If you're using ML on a pro shoot with a client who is paying you money to perform a critical service, I think the term "hack" should be applied to you!

jrumans

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2013, 04:49:56 AM »
Yeah, well...I think you just answered your own question then. What part of the word "hack" doesn't register?

If you're using ML on a pro shoot with a client who is paying you money to perform a critical service, I think the term "hack" should be applied to you!

I think the keyword there is "critical"

If they are looking over your shoulder and wanting to review the footage, then yes, using ML probably isn't the best idea for a paid gig.  However, if you are shooting a lot of broll stuff, I say hack on.
Sometimes you have to go out on a limb to get the fruit.

Midphase

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Re: How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« Reply #16 on: September 19, 2013, 05:03:19 AM »
In that case, I would hope that the decision to use a hacked camera would be discussed in advance with the director and producers to make sure everyone knows the whats and the whys and there aren't any surprises on set.

If I'm being hired on a shoot by a producer who is expecting me to use a pro rig (Red, Alexa, even C300) and I show up with a DLSR running ML because I'm trying to pocket some of the rental money...I deserve all the ire that's levied on me when they find out I can't give them playback, record externally, or even send a halfway decent signal to video village.

hjfilmspeed

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Re: How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« Reply #17 on: September 19, 2013, 05:49:00 AM »
Thats why they say the pre alpha builds should not be used for commercial work. Treat it like film. I find shooting more fun that way.

djzigoh

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Re: How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« Reply #18 on: September 19, 2013, 09:19:50 PM »
I think the easiest solution would be attaching a borrowed/rented Ninja2 to record any quality footage in parallel to review the shoots and even send the output to an external monitor for the director.

Midphase

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Re: How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« Reply #19 on: September 19, 2013, 09:34:27 PM »
Wow....why didn't I think of that?   ;D

djzigoh

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Re: How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2013, 09:53:40 PM »
Even you can record hq prores as a backup copy if anything goes wrong with the RAW recording.

KahL

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2013, 11:12:05 AM »
ML raw isn't the best option for those kind of 'time critical' jobs. It's more like shooting on film.

Pretty much.

However, I've found from my experience that because we DO NOT have playback on set/location, the shoots move faster. If anything, the confidence stems from strong performances and the security of "did we get the shot and was it strong enough?", which brings it back to refusing to cut corners- like celluloid film. I enjoy that immensely, really.

"Chimping" on the camera is irritating as hell to me and the last thing we need as Cinematographers are everyone's opinions muddying up the focus on set. All that's need are for the Director to see the image (second monitor in hand), possibly 1st AC for pulling focus and of course the DP himself/herself.

gpx4

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Re: How to review RAW footage?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2013, 03:13:23 AM »
You can remove overlay in the menu settings.

I have been using a HDMI monitor for real time monitoring near the camera but haven't figured out to make  the HDMI out of the monitor work to output to another HDMI monitor (Director) and likewise have a recorded copy of the output. It starts to display errors.

Having an Atomos Ninja2 succesfully record the files via  HDMI output, with or without overlays,  would already be a BIG breakthrough and serve it's purpose for professional work as the Director, client and agency can now have VTR playback of the recorded clips via the Ninja2 or Odyssey7 drives.

I would like to hear confirmation from Ninja2 or Odyssey7 owners if HDMI recording even just for playback purposes actually work while recording RAW to the CF cards.

buying Atomos ninja to record useless footage with overlay information is absurd. Until ML is updated to newer version of firmware, buying Atomos is out of the posibilities.


What about recording h264 on secondary SD card. I still don't get it, why there isn't a function to make double recording (RAW doesn't use any processor, and SD card is unused by any writing to it). You can then check what you recorded through h264 videos.

dpmaia

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Re: How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2013, 04:05:13 AM »
Should definitely work with ML Raw as if it was film.
Another option besides the Atomos is to go with good old Mini DV video assist decks, it's possible to find them cheap, if you already doesn't have one :)
Need to have the video assist operator though.

mrnv45

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Re: How to review RAW footage in Camera?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2013, 04:40:33 AM »
First i think everyone has valid points.

I have had plenty shoots with raw.

This is how i approach a music video.

set up the set.
shoot all b-roll in raw Spaced out between Performances in h.264 - Perform - Broll while switching around lighting or positiong - Peroformance - Broll -etc... so that way i just show them through camera what they look like in PERFORMANCE cause really thats all they care about.  I was once an artist.  and they trust my Extra stuff just knowing how i shoot.
so i can play back the performances and then sneak in a preview of the raw stuttered playback and then another performance..

it really makes the set go easier cause the performance is really all they are worried about.  To make sure angles are fine...