4:3 ratio recording with ML (For Anamorphic)

Started by mohanohi, August 03, 2013, 07:03:24 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

mohanohi

While shooting anamorphic to get exact 2.35 ratio we need the resolution be recorded at 1440x1080. So that it would fit to 1920x818 cine 2.35 ratio. So is it possible to implement the custom resolution / 4:3 ratio?
DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

iaremrsir

Quote from: mohanohi on August 03, 2013, 07:03:24 PM
While shooting anamorphic to get exact 2.35 ratio we need the resolution be recorded at 1440x1080. So that it would fit to 1920x818 cine 2.35 ratio. So is it possible to implement the custom resolution / 4:3 ratio?

Wouldn't that yield 1440x612, not 1920x818? Shouldn't you capture at the final horizontal resolution you want so you don't have to upscale and lose detail? So you should be capturing at something like 1920x1440 and compress it vertically in post instead of stretching it horizontally. But I believe the max recording resolution of 1:1 crop on the 5D3 is 1920x1280. My point is record as close to the final resolution as you can to minimize the need to stretch your footage.

Midphase

What he just said!   ;D

The idea of recording an an inferior resolution than what the camera is capable of giving you, just to that you can stretch the footage back into what the camera could have recorded in the first place seems bizarre.

The way to record anamorphic on the 5D3 is to record at 3:2 resolution (1920X1280) and then stretch that out in post to roughly 3008X1280 for a 2.35:1 ratio. That assumes that your anamorphic lens is a 1.5X stretch and not a 2X stretch which will give you a much wider image that you'll need to crop in post.

Anyway, the point of using an anamorphic lens is to increase resolution, not decrease it. Yeah, I know, you also get the nifty horizontal flares and oval bokeh...but seriously, resolution should be the most important.

iaremrsir

Quote from: Midphase on August 03, 2013, 11:56:32 PM
What he just said!   ;D

The idea of recording an an inferior resolution than what the camera is capable of giving you, just to that you can stretch the footage back into what the camera could have recorded in the first place seems bizarre.

The way to record anamorphic on the 5D3 is to record at 3:2 resolution (1920X1280) and then stretch that out in post to roughly 3008X1280 for a 2.35:1 ratio. That assumes that your anamorphic lens is a 1.5X stretch and not a 2X stretch which will give you a much wider image that you'll need to crop in post.

Anyway, the point of using an anamorphic lens is to increase resolution, not decrease it. Yeah, I know, you also get the nifty horizontal flares and oval bokeh...but seriously, resolution should be the most important.

That's not what I said. Yes, he should record at the highest resolution possible for the format he wants. I don't know the highest 4:3 ratio the 5D3 will do, but you'd want to use that one (1706x1280?). In post, you don't want to stretch your footage out as that causes you to lose resolution. You want to compress the footage vertically in post so you don't lose resolution. Anamorphics don't increase resolution since a sensor has a fixed number of pixels it can record. Anamorphics widen the horizontal field of view through horizontal compression onto the sensor. So to correctly counter it you have to compress vertically. So your end result will truly be 1920x818, and not upscaled 1440.

mohanohi

Quote from: iaremrsir on August 03, 2013, 08:55:05 PM
Wouldn't that yield 1440x612, not 1920x818? Shouldn't you capture at the final horizontal resolution you want so you don't have to upscale and lose detail? So you should be capturing at something like 1920x1440 and compress it vertically in post instead of stretching it horizontally. But I believe the max recording resolution of 1:1 crop on the 5D3 is 1920x1280. My point is record as close to the final resolution as you can to minimize the need to stretch your footage.

I agree. If it does 1920x1440 or 2048x1536 res then it would be great. Then ML will be creating Mini Arri Alexa.. Will any developers hop in to comment?
DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

mohanohi

Quote from: Midphase on August 03, 2013, 11:56:32 PM
What he just said!   ;D

The idea of recording an an inferior resolution than what the camera is capable of giving you, just to that you can stretch the footage back into what the camera could have recorded in the first place seems bizarre.

The way to record anamorphic on the 5D3 is to record at 3:2 resolution (1920X1280) and then stretch that out in post to roughly 3008X1280 for a 2.35:1 ratio. That assumes that your anamorphic lens is a 1.5X stretch and not a 2X stretch which will give you a much wider image that you'll need to crop in post.

Anyway, the point of using an anamorphic lens is to increase resolution, not decrease it. Yeah, I know, you also get the nifty horizontal flares and oval bokeh...but seriously, resolution should be the most important.

Stretching doesn't yield good result. And the point of using anamorphic lens is not to increase resolution and not about flares or oval bokeh, its all about giving film feel to it. I am talking about true Anamorphic lens (kowa 40, 50, 75 ,100) and not about any projector lens, which produces sharpest image.
DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

Midphase

I don't want to start a big discussion here, but the way data is encoded in the image, stretching the image horizontally produces a less artifacted image than stretching it vertically so going from 1920 to say 2500 will still look quite acceptable, especially coming from RAW.

https://vimeo.com/66574661

Realistically, most people who want to shoot anamorphic on a DSLR are going to do it with a projector lens. True Kowa anamorphics (the type you're talking about and which can run in the tens of thousands of dollars) can't even mount on an EF DSLR!

In this particular context, shooting using anamorphic lenses is very much about the flares, the oval bokeh and squeezing a higher resolution out of the sensor without compromising the IQ too much. Otherwise why not shoot in 1920X817 and save yourself some CF card space and hassle? If you want "cinematic" feel out of your glass, you'd probably be much better off investing in some vintage Zeiss or Leica with mounts which can be converted to EF without too much fuss.



mohanohi

Quote from: Midphase on August 04, 2013, 08:10:43 AM
I don't want to start a big discussion here, but the way data is encoded in the image, stretching the image horizontally produces a less artifacted image than stretching it vertically so going from 1920 to say 2500 will still look quite acceptable, especially coming from RAW.

https://vimeo.com/66574661

Realistically, most people who want to shoot anamorphic on a DSLR are going to do it with a projector lens. True Kowa anamorphics (the type you're talking about and which can run in the tens of thousands of dollars) can't even mount on an EF DSLR!

In this particular context, shooting using anamorphic lenses is very much about the flares, the oval bokeh and squeezing a higher resolution out of the sensor without compromising the IQ too much. Otherwise why not shoot in 1920X817 and save yourself some CF card space and hassle? If you want "cinematic" feel out of your glass, you'd probably be much better off investing in some vintage Zeiss or Leica with mounts which can be converted to EF without too much fuss.

I am using modified PL mount Mark3 body, and i know kowa doesn't mount directly. As an cinematographer i have used Master primes, ultra primes for my various project with Red cam, and i don't want these flat lenses.

As far projector lens is considered where most people shooting anamorphic, i have been there and not satisfied with end result and i don't want to do amateur job on professional set.

Quote
I don't want to start a big discussion here

And now, if you don't want you to start discussion then stay away from my thread.
DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

s---70

QuoteAnd now, if you don't want you to start discussion then stay away from my thread.

I don't think that this attitude will help you with getting devs to help you. Might be better for you to keep using professional stuff like REDs with master primes anyway if you want to look professional on a professional set.

mohanohi

Quote from: s---70 on August 04, 2013, 05:15:43 PM
I don't think that this attitude will help you with getting devs to help you. Might be better for you to keep using professional stuff like REDs with master primes anyway if you want to look professional on a professional set.

And you think that putting a projector lens in front of an lens would yield good results? I don't think anybody would have projected those footage on atleast 36+ feet screen. If i want to match to red/ alexa cam the least i can do is stay away from these projector lens and shoot straight with the lenses which are on the red/alexa body.

DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

mohanohi

And this is my anamorphic lens test video. Was in hurry and didn't have tripod while testing.
Workflow:
Shot RAW, (by mistake 1920x818)
Extracted with raw2cdng 16bit linear
imported dng to photivo
exported to 16bit tiff
imported and graded with scratch
DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

Midphase

Quote from: mohanohi on August 04, 2013, 07:01:31 PM
And you think that putting a projector lens in front of an lens would yield good results?

We're all trying to help, and there are so many different people here with various levels of knowledge and experience that it's difficult to be able to clarify if someone knows what they're talking about or not.

But to answer your original question, I think the max vertical resolution right now is 1280 so best you can do is 1920 x 1280.


Note:  Feel free to attack the post, but no personal attacks please.  -Audionut

1%

I have 1408 & 1472, you could crop it. I think 1440 had some problems before.

iaremrsir

Quote from: Midphase on August 04, 2013, 08:10:43 AM
I don't want to start a big discussion here, but the way data is encoded in the image, stretching the image horizontally produces a less artifacted image than stretching it vertically so going from 1920 to say 2500 will still look quite acceptable, especially coming from RAW.

By artifacts do you mean aliasing? The reason there are less artifacts is because there is less detail. And I have to ask, do you see the artifacts when viewing the image at 100% or 50%? Or are they there at some weird zoom like 63%? Viewing at the weird zooms will cause artifacting because of complications with scaling.

Midphase

Quote from: iaremrsir on August 04, 2013, 10:13:47 PM
By artifacts do you mean aliasing? The reason there are less artifacts is because there is less detail. And I have to ask, do you see the artifacts when viewing the image at 100% or 50%? Or are they there at some weird zoom like 63%? Viewing at the weird zooms will cause artifacting because of complications with scaling.

I think Andrew Reid might want to chime in here and comment since he's truly the resident expert when it comes to shooting with anamorphic lenses.

What I'm saying is that a 1920x1280 scaled up to 2500x1280 will look better than say a 1280x720 scaled up to 1920x1080. So IMHO it's possible to obtain very good looking footage by shooting at 1920x1280 (a 3:2 ratio) with an anamorphic lens and then de-squeeze in post. I also think that shooting with ML raw yields an overall better scalability in general.

Having said that...anamorphics are not everyone's cup of tea and different people obviously have different opinions. To get a 2.35:1 ratio, some prefer to shoot at 1920x1080 and then crop in post, some prefer to shoot at 1920x817.

I think all these methods are valid. The OP was asking if it's possible for a ratio to be added that would allow  to shoot at 1440x1080 and I thought this was already possible (although there are 2 problems with that...1 is that in order to access that resolution one would have to shoot in Crop mode, and 2 that you still end up stretching the image horizontally back to 1920 width.....crap, now I'm all confused and stuff).

Audionut

Quote from: Midphase on August 05, 2013, 01:28:46 AM
The OP was asking if it's possible for a ratio to be added that would allow  to shoot at 1440x1080 and I thought this was already possible (although there are 2 problems with that...1 is that in order to access that resolution one would have to shoot in Crop mode, and 2 that you still end up stretching the image horizontally back to 1920 width.....crap, now I'm all confused and stuff).

Anything under 1920 wide by 1280 high (on a 5D3) can be shot normally.  If you need high resolution, then you must shot in crop mode.
Currently the closet you can get to 1440x1080 is 1472x1104, which is still 4:3 aspect and can either be cropped or resampled in post for the same result.



I've only brushed over this thread, but there's a difference between aspect ratio, and shooting anamorphic.  Some might be happy with the 2.35:1 aspect, others might want to do it with anamorphic lenses.

mohanohi

Quote from: Audionut on August 05, 2013, 07:13:20 AM
Anything under 1920 wide by 1280 high (on a 5D3) can be shot normally.  If you need high resolution, then you must shot in crop mode.
Currently the closet you can get to 1440x1080 is 1472x1104, which is still 4:3 aspect and can either be cropped or resampled in post for the same result.



I've only brushed over this thread, but there's a difference between aspect ratio, and shooting anamorphic.  Some might be happy with the 2.35:1 aspect, others might want to do it with anamorphic lenses.

Thank you Audionut.
It would help a lot if we get 1920x1440 / 1472x1104 for shooting with anamorphic. If i get 1920x1440 i would later scale it to 2048x858 for cine out complaining to DCI specification. In mean time is there any build so i could shoot with 1472x1104?
DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens

Audionut

The current repo does 1472x1104, I checked before making the post.

s---70

QuoteIt would help a lot if we get 1920x1440 / 1472x1104 for shooting with anamorphic. If i get 1920x1440 i would later scale it to 2048x858 for cine out complaining to DCI specification. In mean time is there any build so i could shoot with 1472x1104?

1920x1440 is only possible in CROP MODE, where the focal length of your lens gets multiplied by 3. The limit for full frame capture is 1920x1280 and that probably won't change.

weoul

I think even more practical to use 1600X1200 in full mode and only 80MB/s needed

ps just checked - 1728X1288 (almost 4:3 ratio) also works at least for me giving 92MB/s write speed continuisly (25FPS).

Great topic- gone for Kowa lenses  :) :) :)

Midphase

Quote from: weoul on August 05, 2013, 03:37:14 PM
ps just checked - 1728X1288 (almost 4:3 ratio) also works at least for me giving 92MB/s write speed continuisly (25FPS).


Assuming the lenses don't vignette, and that your CF card can handle it....why not shoot all the way at 1920X1288 and have some wiggle room/reframing options in post? You can always overlay 4:3 guides on your screen so that you can frame accurately, and I'm not 100% sure but I believe you can de-squeeze the image in LiveView automatically so that your brain is not going bonkers trying to figure out what you're shooting.

weoul

Quote from: Midphase on August 05, 2013, 07:18:52 PM
Assuming the lenses don't vignette, and that your CF card can handle it....why not shoot all the way at 1920X1288 and have some wiggle room/reframing options in post? You can always overlay 4:3 guides on your screen so that you can frame accurately, and I'm not 100% sure but I believe you can de-squeeze the image in LiveView automatically so that your brain is not going bonkers trying to figure out what you're shooting.

May be you are right, pity that my CF Trancsend 64 1000x is against it and can bear only 92MB/s transfer rate  >:(

tferradans

I feel like this is the place I should ask, but it doesn't relate directly with the discussion on the above posts...

I'm using 70's and 90's Anamorphic LOMO Zooms on a 50D, great looking thing, and shooting 4:3 (1344x1008px), but this area includes the black bars on top and below the frame. I can take them out with "ClearOverlays", but then I don't control my framing on a moving shot, for example. :(

Any ideas, clues or suggestions on how to remove these bars when shooting raw video? (same goes for the 5D3)
Thanks a lot!

I'm desqueezing in post, and the loss in image quality is almost unnoticeable. :P

mohanohi

Quote from: tferradans on August 08, 2013, 07:49:31 PM
I feel like this is the place I should ask, but it doesn't relate directly with the discussion on the above posts...

I'm using 70's and 90's Anamorphic LOMO Zooms on a 50D, great looking thing, and shooting 4:3 (1344x1008px), but this area includes the black bars on top and below the frame. I can take them out with "ClearOverlays", but then I don't control my framing on a moving shot, for example. :(

Any ideas, clues or suggestions on how to remove these bars when shooting raw video? (same goes for the 5D3)
Thanks a lot!

I'm desqueezing in post, and the loss in image quality is almost unnoticeable. :P

Taping on monitor would be quick and easy way.
DOP, Editor, DIT, PL 5D, Ultra primes, Kowa lens