Author Topic: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"  (Read 24876 times)

Shield

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EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"
« on: June 18, 2013, 07:55:10 AM »
http://www.eoshd.com/content/10610/the-eoshd-5d-mark-iii-raw-shooters-guide-available-now

Personally I wouldn't pay a penny to a guide creator BEFORE I donated to the ML team first; they're the ones who did all the work.  Nothing wrong with capitalism, but when I see comments on his site about "he has done so much to push the ML RAW to the masses" I just wonder if those people are thanking those on THIS site as well.

Shrug.

robertgl

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2013, 08:12:49 AM »
i try hard to avoid that blog

vertigopix

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2013, 08:25:49 AM »
I think they must FIRST donate to ML...

Shield

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2013, 08:35:06 AM »
Exactly.  The developers rightfully give me hell about requesting "perfect audio" which isn't even working yet - don't you all think it's just a tad early to be selling a GUIDE for shooting raw?  The ML Raw isn't even at Alpha 1 stage.

Very premature IMO - seems like just a way to make a quick buck.  How much of the ML hack did Andrew contribute to?  He helped spread the word just as I have tried to help people on here fix their damaged footers.  You don't see me trying to sell a guide.

Hell if I followed all of EOSHD's "advice" I'd have a bunch of 128GB Komputerbay cards that aren't even fast enough to record 1920x1080.  Remember he came out saying those would work, and we know now they are slower than the 64GB cards.

Sigh.

deleted.account

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2013, 09:40:38 AM »
Shield, yeah that comment made on EOSHD you refer to gave me exactly the same response and if you looked at some sort of timeline of events its not hard to imagine that there was a lot of activity here from followers of the initial raw histogram development that lead to chance of raw at all, raw yuv as alternative and the final break through for raw recording all happened months before with ML members testing and giving feedback.

BUT Andrew is not that fanboy poster and he has put effort into compiling a great deal of disparet info scattered over this site that makes it far less frustrating trying to find stuff, especially for those adopting / investigating raw now.

sonus

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2013, 10:12:47 AM »
This is a prime example in someone making a buck off the back of the open source community.
He would have done more for the cause making this free to the community. Y'now, to give back to those
who made his mark III usable and as a source of funding for future paid projects.

Bad form in deed. I guess his blog is living long enough to become the villain he has seen in others.

Audionut

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #6 on: June 18, 2013, 10:25:47 AM »
Poor form!

ML is in need of better documentation, and this user is charging others who don't know better, for information that is available via these forums.

Poor form!

Redrocks

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2013, 10:38:56 AM »
I agree with a lot of what has been said here, but let's not lower the tone. The guy has solved a problem for those with more money than time.

The real problem here is as Audionut says "ML is in need of better documentation" which is something we can all turn our attention to.

Audionut

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2013, 10:48:17 AM »
Quote
I sat for like 2000 hours solid in front of software and cameras to make the guide and the $19.99 goes towards the 99% of what EOSHD outputs on the blog - which is FREE.

Please!

Andy600

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #9 on: June 18, 2013, 10:50:16 AM »
Poor form!

ML is in need of better documentation, and this user is charging others who don't know better, for information that is available via these forums.

Poor form!

Couldn't agree more! I purchased his Anamorphic Shooters Guide a couple of years ago which I did find useful because the information, especially the lens recommendations (by someone who actually owns them) was difficult to find elsewhere but this is pretty low TBH.

When you SEE the amount of work and time the devs have put into developing Magic Lantern for FREE, not to mention all the help and advice they give users on a daily basis here, it feels morally wrong for someone, no matter who he/she is, to capitalize in this way. This isn't how this community works is it?

Andrew Reid - have a rethink on this.

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dude

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #10 on: June 18, 2013, 10:57:10 AM »
Poor...
I remember last year he believed that gh2 was overall killer (yes, it s a better camera than Alexa...),
Then mk iii was the worst cam ever and bmcc is the new killer, now it s the raw....
Very poor to make money out of the work from others, especially now in the testing status- the raw is in no official version and so hard to understand for beginners, but they want a "cool camera".
When raw is implemented in stable ml versions, there would be no need for a book like that.
It s like taking money for let people watch the cook do their meal...
So I don't think it is a good idea to make money on the back of others work.
But maybe he donates half of his earned money to ml, we don t know.

g3gg0

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #11 on: June 18, 2013, 12:50:08 PM »
calm down, guys. thats the real world.

in the real world, people do some work and they decide what to do with their work
 - dont share with anyone
 - share by exchanging with goods/money
 - share for free

every single decision has its characteristics:
 - first is just egoistic
 - second is the best decision from the economical point of view
 - third is altruistic and you have spent your time for nothing

for me it is its okay if he did all work on his own.
if its worth its money -> OK
as long there is no ML material in this guide that is not clearly marked as that -> OK
price is lower than normally -> thanks


you pay a few bucks for making a idiot proof manual for you.
so calm down. not everything related to ML has to be free of charge.
thats the way open source always existed and this *has* to continue.
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Shield

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 01:21:40 PM »
calm down, guys. thats the real world.

in the real world, people do some work and they decide what to do with their work
 - dont share with anyone
 - share by exchanging with goods/money
 - share for free

every single decision has its characteristics:
 - first is just egoistic
 - second is the best decision from the economical point of view
 - third is altruistic and you have spent your time for nothing

for me it is its okay if he did all work on his own.
if its worth its money -> OK
as long there is no ML material in this guide that is not clearly marked as that -> OK
price is lower than normally -> thanks


you pay a few bucks for making a idiot proof manual for you.
so calm down. not everything related to ML has to be free of charge.
thats the way open source always existed and this *has* to continue.

Right, but let's say for argument's sake one part of the "guide" is how to replace missing footer information.  I spent a little while doing this and posted it for everyone, free of charge.  I don't want nor am I looking for anything in return.  I'm quite sure the other information in his "guide" has been discovered or created by others - to me the entire concept and point of ML *is* open source/free.  Is he donating a portion or all of it to this site?  I would never ask for money for my small contribution here, and to me this software is in the "work out the bugs" stage and better time could be served working out the kinks.
I just find it ridiculous.  The spirit of ML is sharing and collaboration. 

Shield

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 01:25:58 PM »
Poor...
I remember last year he believed that gh2 was overall killer (yes, it s a better camera than Alexa...),

Exactly.  As I mentioned before, when he first starting talking about ML Raw on his site he was championing 128GB Komputerbay cards, which we now know won't do 1920x1080 perpetually.  How could his "guide" NOT have ML material and ONLY work he's done on his own?  i see what g3gg0 is saying, and I agree with it in principle, but not this situation.  Would love to see what's in the "guide" but no way I'd ever give him a penny BEFORE donating to THIS site.

JulianH

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2013, 01:26:16 PM »
Agree with g3gg0.

Don't like it? Don't buy it. It's a free world we're living in.

I haven't bought the guide and I won't, because I've been following the developments for hours a day the past few weeks. Small chance I'll find something new in there that makes it worth the money.

But hey, if you want to jump into the game now... this might be a good buy. Of course, it would be cool if someone would make the whole thing for free. Actually I've been planning to make a simple (free) tutorial video to do raw on the 50D (for beginners). It's a lot of work though so I never get to finish it. Even something small like that. Imagine putting the whole guide together.

I have more respect for this pdf - that is the only available document right now - than all those book publishers with their 'how to'  crap books. Especially the photography ones made by shitty photographers.

Anyway, why bother complaining about it. Make a guide yourself - start a topic or a Google Doc where we can all collaberate on making the ultimate ML raw guide for free! I would put some time into it.

And to all the 'donate to ML!' sayers - there is currently no way of donating directly to ML... So that comment doesn't make any sense.

Shield

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2013, 01:53:20 PM »

Of course, it would be cool if someone would make the whole thing for free. Actually I've been planning to make a simple (free) tutorial video to do raw on the 50D (for beginners). It's a lot of work though so I never get to finish it. Even something small like that. Imagine putting the whole guide together.

I have more respect for this pdf - that is the only available document right now - than all those book publishers with their 'how to'  crap books.

But there are other free guides out there.  Like this:

http://www.cinema5d.com/news/?p=17898
and this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0fGIIAQXXxQ

In fact, the cinema5d article is the first one I read that got me started.  I would even suspect it was the first "how to" on the raw subject.  I remember reading it in middle May.

dlrpgmsvc

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2013, 02:18:43 PM »
If you think it's impossible, you have lost beforehand

g3gg0

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2013, 03:13:33 PM »
Right, but let's say for argument's sake one part of the "guide" is how to replace missing footer information.  I spent a little while doing this and posted it for everyone, free of charge.  I don't want nor am I looking for anything in return.

as said, if he borrows other's work, this has to be clearly stated in the manual.
definitely. also asking you if its okay to put there would be a kind move.

but still, to share or not to share is up to every single person.
if he makes a lot money with it (srsly, i dont expect that) it would be kind of him to send us some useful stuff for example.

not everyone has to be "one of us" and give all for free. i accept the "others" too.
those who earn their money with the work they do.
Help us with datasheets - Help us with register dumps
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Andy600

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2013, 03:27:23 PM »
I suppose at the end of the day it's no different than the Dummies Guide To Unix etc but I do hope he has fully credited the ML devs and the devs who made the conversion apps in this manual. I hope he sees fit to contribute something back too as this is based entirely on a Magic Lantern development.

I had this dilemma while developing Picture Styles. I put in many hours of work but still couldn't justify charging for them when others would. I guess it's a 'morals' thing  :-\
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1%

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2013, 04:19:41 PM »
I have a couple thoughts:

1. He was on here and benefiting from all our combined knowledge. He took it and packaged it to sell.
The big boys do this and even rip you off to boot. It is the real world, not uncommon. Could be worse.

2. Bit rude at an early stage in development, raw is just getting good and stable to try to profiteer off off it.

3. The newbies probably pounded him with questions and dumb questions to boot. He got fed up and decided to make some money off of it, understandable.

4. Raw features change every other day, guide will be outdated soon.


bart

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2013, 04:32:03 PM »
With all respect, what do you expect from a "compile it yourself" restricted nerd area? This guide and contributions from other video related blogs fill a gap and make this amazing technology accessible for a broader public that is more involved in film making than gathering deep technological insights in equipment and software.
Of course it would be great to have it for free, but $20 is fine by me too.

If you think the ML community should provide these things then don't rely on devs, admins and moderators. They have their hands full. Instead start a documentation team and just use the public wiki or write some nice article drafts and share them in the forum. With the help of others it can be made ready to publish. If you don't have all the facts, just ask in the forum. Just start writing and i'm sure the team will look over your shoulders to keep the facts right. Magiclantern.fm has the platform and tools available. Everyone can contribute in this great manner and help each other out. If you want to donate, hire yourself for documentation writing.

UPDATE
Let's start, boys  --> http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6594.0    8)

Yes that's the spirit, good initiative.

squig

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 07:06:04 PM »
From now on it's $20 per question answered. I'm gonna be rich biatch!  :D

I might have to start giving the right answers.  :-[

EOSHD

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2013, 07:16:27 PM »
Quote
"This guide and contributions from other video related blogs fill a gap and make this amazing technology accessible for a broader public"

Cheers for the concerns from certain individuals here, even the troublemakers who are already known to me (not you Bart!).

I really do appreciate the spirit and ethos of an open source project and didn't want to go against that.

I wanted with the book to take Magic Lantern to the less-technically minded parts of the film industry and it is a showcase for the apps too, bringing them to an audience outside the forums. When RawMagic goes gold, if it becomes a paid app like 5DToRGB will the same people complain to Rarevision that they're simply profiteering off someone else's work? I hope not. They work bloody hard to give you such a useful tool.

EOSHD isn't an open source collaborative effort but I do put a lot of stuff out there for free because I believe in free exchange of information. I also believe capitalism and free exchange of info can coexist. In fact it goes deeper than merely coexisting. They compliment each other. I am not alone in requiring funds to survive. Magic Lantern needs funds to sustain it and day jobs and donations. The Shooter's Guides are my day job and I think it is unreasonable to expect me to do my day job for free AND provide an enormous blog about cameras for free also.

An anamorphic guide, a GH2 guide or a 5D Mark III guide is a donation to EOSHD. You get something in return - the book and my hard researched knowledge that I hope will be useful. I don't see a problem with it.

I put huge unpaid effort into the site not to profiteer from a community but to help build one.

I enjoy doing EOSHD and I'm passionate about filmmaking. If I was such a profiteer you'd think it would be plastered with ads.

I get requests and bat them off because I don't want ads to ruin the experience for the reader for the sake of an extra few pennies. That isn't just talk, it's action - show me the ads! Profiteering? Rare paid content goes into sustaining that service and if I didn't have the books - there'd be no EOSHD! End of story! Not even an Andrew Reid, no filmmaking. I'd be unemployed. I sometimes think that is what some people actually want, to see me fall flat on my face as a filmmaker? Completely unable to fund my creative work?

If not for these books I'd be shooting uninspired commercials for corporate clients instead of attempting to help the broader film community get to grips with Magic Lantern and anamorphic lenses. The book is 100% my own work. It didn't exist before I wrote it and of course wouldn't exist if not for Magic Lantern existing, but then everything sits on the shoulders of giants. No Dennis Ritchie. No C code. I am doing a brain dump onto the page of everything I did to familiarise myself with raw video, not just with Magic Lantern and the 5D Mark III but with Resolve and the Blackmagic cameras, and also my own cinematography with two chapters of advice on the creative side.

squig

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 07:21:27 PM »
You didn't really say 2000 hours did ya Andrew?

EOSHD

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Re: EOSHD $20 "Raw shooter's Guide"...
« Reply #24 on: June 18, 2013, 07:25:36 PM »
3. The newbies probably pounded him with questions and dumb questions to boot. He got fed up and decided to make some money off of it, understandable.

That's not the motivation.

EOSHD is free, I work on it all year and get pounded by questions every day. I make money because I have to. If I didn't, it just wouldn't be viable.