MAximum quality for Post with Resolve or Color etc.

Started by mkrjf, June 12, 2013, 11:41:51 PM

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mkrjf

I will try to consolidate all my questions on this thread - the focus is maximum quality for indie films with cinema quality post production.
Workflow (super high level):
1) Shoot in camera (5dmk3 with L series glass and neutral profile) with ML at 1920x1080x24fps and approx. 1/48 shutter. Use histograms to primarily avoid any overexposure and secondarily minimize underexposure. Obviously you will adjust exposure, aperture, lighting, lenses, etc.
2) Ideally edit with system that can use 'proxy' for real time editing of raw files but debayering / transcoding to an almost lossless coded may be good enough if exposed well - so maybe premiere against raw / tif.
Convert raw files generated to a lossless intermediate codec for coarse color correction and subsequent editing - say prores444
In either case the bit depth must be preserved as much as possible - silly to shoot 14bit just to truncate to 8bit at the start of workflow.
3) once you have picture lock - either export at highest level (again could be prores444) and grade directly or export metadata that allows grading against raw files using metadata to delineate edit decision list / xml.
4) Now after you have done all your magic - consider compressing / downrezing for a particular output - say web or tv or whatever.

If everyone agrees with this - then can we specify what is the maximum quality that can be output with ML (straight - no HDR or other tweaks for now)? What is a workflow that is not restricted to one commercial tool (ie works for fcp and premiere and whatever - does not hinge on after effects) that generates this best case intermediate codec for editing.

If that can be done you will cause major disruption and everyone will benefit.
IMHO

For quality please consider spatial and color and time - line pairs / mm, pixel merging algorithms (when converting full sensor 9:1), debayering algrithms (still haven't seen any details in this forum on algorithms), color space tranformation, exposure angle / duration, etc.

Mike

mkrjf

oh and equal toolset on either mac, linux or pc ;)

AnotherDave

I think you should download Resolve... you've just stated the basic idea behind an offline/online workflow.

Mei Lewis

You mention using  a neutral profile. The profile doesn't affect the image at all when recording in raw, so you may want to choose another profile to fain something elsewhere, for example a contrastier profile to make it easier to focus, or a very flat profile so you can see more of what you're capturing in the extremes of the tonal range.

mkrjf

I have resolve. And there is no document I have seen defining what magic lantern raw is for 5dmk3.
So my post was to get common ground and ask for the boundary conditions.
And as always garbage in garbage out - which is why resolve is only valuable with a high dynamic range input (IMHO).
Of course you realize resolve is not appropriate for editing. But is premiere my only choice for editing? And with what input? 16bit tif files?!

I was hoping some of the developers would volunteer details on the raw format and what compromises are made before I can edit it in a nle and then later when color grading whether direct or off line.

Right now it is too sketchy to commit to filming anything important ;)
And I am glad to code - but no specifications makes that pretty inefficient.
Have the developers of magicraw and dng2raw gotten other details or just reverse engineer the existing code?


Mei Lewis

I don't think you're going to get what you're asking for.

Can you give an example of another file/format/system for which similar information is available? I don't think so.

No manufacturer is going to specify which NLE you should use for example, and while they may quote things like dynamic range the figures aren't always accurate and the standard advice is to do your own tests if it's critical.

Different people are going to come up with different file format, software and workflow solutions that suit their different needs.


AFAIK from this forum the file format is simply a sequence of 14bit, uncompressed images of certain pixel dimensions. There's no specific tone curve or color space.

mkrjf

Well for red epic and FCP x or premiere cs6 you can get do I enter workflows with typical dynamic range specified.
Of course I can do the testing and document - but it is wasteful if we all have to rediscover the same info.
Just to use this hack I have to invest several hundred in 1000x cards.
Anyway I guess the forum is more for chatting than problem solving ;)

Redrocks

@mkrjf the only real way we can answer these questions is by revealing our own methods and posting results for comparison:

http://www.magiclantern.fm/forum/index.php?topic=6595.msg52376#msg52376

Fatpig has got the ball rolling, feel free to contribute.