Author Topic: Kickstarter Campaign  (Read 18785 times)

krashnik

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Kickstarter Campaign
« on: June 11, 2013, 04:00:44 AM »
I vote for a Kickstarter Campaign for Magic Lantern.  There are many people who are not "hackers" who would love to have this on their firmware.

We can run this as a nonprofit education-only tool & apply the money for research only to ensure it follows any laws set by Canon.

As you can see in the chart below, film & video projects are funded very often & quite successful. 

We are also all filmmakers.  Wouldn't it be cool if we all got together and made one massive video showcasing how Magic Lantern has helped us on projects?  My entire film business wouldn't even exist without ML. 

Let's go global and kickstart this thing for 4k RAW production by the end of 2013!


krashnik

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2013, 04:01:48 AM »
We also can raise funds to create an incredible How-To tutorial section for ML.  I have some very successful Wordpress Tutorials with millions of viewers & would be happy to help with this side of the project if it were funded properly.

albert-e

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2013, 04:20:51 AM »
We also can raise funds to create an incredible How-To tutorial section for ML.  I have some very successful Wordpress Tutorials with millions of viewers & would be happy to help with this side of the project if it were funded properly.

I propose to consult a lawyer first. Second the motion, if anybody agree.

ItsMeLenny

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2013, 06:33:09 AM »
krashnik, magic lantern take donations.

Francis

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2013, 08:45:43 AM »
No, Magic Lantern does not currently accept donations. Also, soliciting for a campaign and offering to create tutorials if you are well compensated sounds self-serving and not in the spirit of the project. Maybe you should find some other site to offer your services to.

albert-e

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2013, 02:08:28 PM »
No, Magic Lantern does not currently accept donations. Also, soliciting for a campaign and offering to create tutorials if you are well compensated sounds self-serving and not in the spirit of the project. Maybe you should find some other site to offer your services to.

I agree.

SDX

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2013, 02:23:34 PM »
If the Magic Lantern project needs money for eg. software licenses for development tools, we'll open for donations. This has usually worked, and with such a rapidly growing community, this won't be a problem in future either.
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krashnik

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2013, 04:46:37 PM »
Magic lantern does take donations and even blocks out the download of software and demands users pay $5 to get the build before anyone else.
That is a commercial business and we can step away from that mold by offering other forms of donations and funding which will allow us to make magic lantern a larger and more solid platform.

In a strong company, you have multiple marketing campaigns raising money in different directions that all go back to the main source. So regardless if Ml gathers funds elsewhere, gathering them on a new site seems appropriate.

I mention kickstarter since the energy on there is very welcoming to the open source community.

I work with open - source software for a living and in looking through the Ml coding, I see the programming could be taken to the next level with some professional programmers.  Even training the current programmers or providing them funds so they can do this full time instead of offshoots from their other jobs or from their schooling.

My interest is in expanding ML and expanding awareness so we can tackle the challenges in firmware with sharper minds, more focus, and finding that enables all of this to happen.

 

Walter Schulz

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2013, 04:58:40 PM »
Interesting trolling but trolling anyway.
Ex falso quodlibet!

Ciao, Walter
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nanomad

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2013, 06:10:47 PM »
Magic lantern does take donations and even blocks out the download of software and demands users pay $5 to get the build before anyone else.
Not anymore. There are legal implications and we won't do it again. Period.


I work with open - source software for a living and in looking through the Ml coding, I see the programming could be taken to the next level with some professional programmers.  Even training the current programmers or providing them funds so they can do this full time instead of offshoots from their other jobs or from their schooling.
ML is not your typical open source project. We reverse engineer stuff. And history told us that this activity is tolerated unless you try to make a profit out of it. I'm not saying it's illegal, just that we don't want to piss off Canon. Ehy, it's their code after all.
Now, you could alwyas hire a lawyer (tip: we do have lawyers) and get a second opinion on this and post it here. I'm interested in seeing his response
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AnotherDave

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2013, 07:07:32 PM »
It'd be great if they were going to create their own open source camera and wanted to fund it.

But this post doesn't make sense otherwise...

They're already doing what they're doing and kicking butt at it!

krashnik

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2013, 08:08:38 PM »
If we put Magic Lantern on the MIT open-source software license or something similar and make sure legally it is 100% open-soucre & also 100% just for research and education - then that allows us to freely modify & raise funding for the code.

I already have lawyers on my staff and this is how we develop other open-source software.

I didn't look through the code thoroughly, but every single page needs to be on the MIT license for this to work accurately.  A simple setup is to have people sign in the TOS when they signup for ML website that they comply to doing this for research only & that any modifications they make must also comply to the MIT license.  This can also be considered a GPLv3 License, which allows the same thing.

The only problem I see is if someone modifies ML coding & decides that their modification won't go on the MIT or GPLv3 license.  To circumvent this, we can put a clause saying all future modifications MUST also use the same license.  This will keep the software free forever.


They're already doing what they're doing and kicking butt at it!

They have done a great job up until this point, though it is still an amateur piece of code with inadequate licensing and maintenance to really hold standard in a larger marketplace.  If we treat it similar to the Android system, we could theoretically have a platform for future chipsets to run only on MagicLantern Firmware.  This would allow a complete different open-source camera system to adopt ML into it's hardware for a truly 100% open-source platform.  This can't happen on the random hours the current coders are putting into this software.

Whether we like it or not, writing code takes money.  This doesn't have to be a for-profit organization in order to fund the cause. 

A few areas funding could go to:

Dedicated Servers to host ML website: $2,000/year
Redesign responsive website: $4,000
How-To Tutorials for beginners: $10,000
Funding for 5 programmers to treat this as part-time job: $50,000 = $10k/year per programmer. 
Distribute the $50k to the top 5 programmers who work on this code which will allow them to buy cameras and completely take them apart, completely obliterate CF/SSD controllers, etc.

We need to step away from the mindset that ML is a garage/basement project and realize that it is currently ranked at 59,000 on Alexa, has global coverage with top magazines and reviewers, and is being used by filmmakers worldwide in commercial productions.
 
We're essentially sitting on a multi-million nonprofit educational open-source platform that just needs the right management to standardize how it works. 

Adding commercial advertising on the website, kickstarter projects, and writing books on how to use the software are just a few commercial aspects of financing that can be done without making any of the actual software profitable or closed-source.

Let's rethink this entity & someone with more a higher post count than me take over the movement in that direction :)

albert-e

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2013, 08:57:17 PM »
If we put Magic Lantern on the MIT open-source software license or something similar and make sure legally it is 100% open-soucre & also 100% just for research and education - then that allows us to freely modify & raise funding for the code.

I already have lawyers on my staff and this is how we develop other open-source software.

I didn't look through the code thoroughly, but every single page needs to be on the MIT license for this to work accurately.  A simple setup is to have people sign in the TOS when they signup for ML website that they comply to doing this for research only & that any modifications they make must also comply to the MIT license.  This can also be considered a GPLv3 License, which allows the same thing.

The only problem I see is if someone modifies ML coding & decides that their modification won't go on the MIT or GPLv3 license.  To circumvent this, we can put a clause saying all future modifications MUST also use the same license.  This will keep the software free forever.


They have done a great job up until this point, though it is still an amateur piece of code with inadequate licensing and maintenance to really hold standard in a larger marketplace.  If we treat it similar to the Android system, we could theoretically have a platform for future chipsets to run only on MagicLantern Firmware.  This would allow a complete different open-source camera system to adopt ML into it's hardware for a truly 100% open-source platform.  This can't happen on the random hours the current coders are putting into this software.

Whether we like it or not, writing code takes money.  This doesn't have to be a for-profit organization in order to fund the cause. 

A few areas funding could go to:

Dedicated Servers to host ML website: $2,000/year
Redesign responsive website: $4,000
How-To Tutorials for beginners: $10,000
Funding for 5 programmers to treat this as part-time job: $50,000 = $10k/year per programmer. 
Distribute the $50k to the top 5 programmers who work on this code which will allow them to buy cameras and completely take them apart, completely obliterate CF/SSD controllers, etc.

We need to step away from the mindset that ML is a garage/basement project and realize that it is currently ranked at 59,000 on Alexa, has global coverage with top magazines and reviewers, and is being used by filmmakers worldwide in commercial productions.
 
We're essentially sitting on a multi-million nonprofit educational open-source platform that just needs the right management to standardize how it works. 

Adding commercial advertising on the website, kickstarter projects, and writing books on how to use the software are just a few commercial aspects of financing that can be done without making any of the actual software profitable or closed-source.

Let's rethink this entity & someone with more a higher post count than me take over the movement in that direction :)

You have a hidden agenda, I think. I don't really know you but you seem to be more of a business man.

Francis

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2013, 08:58:54 PM »
I don't think this project needs your business consulting services. Coincidentally you don't offer any according to your website.

Try CHDK or maybe that zibri guys iphone hacking project. ;)

hirethestache

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2013, 09:02:55 PM »
Or dont change what isnt broken. Please quit trying to monetize ML. As soon as you bring money into the game, you introduce power struggles and inequality.

Tutorials are already being made on a daily basis from the users, for free.
The website is already perfectly (albeit slightly clunky) functional.
The general public feels like it is a part of something big, because it is free and completely open-source.
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Stedda

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2013, 09:08:39 PM »
we
us
I
my
we
we
we
We
We're

I've been following ML for a few years now and never realized you were a part of the project except for you current attempted money grab.
Did you even bother to contact them prior to this post?

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coutts

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2013, 09:31:11 PM »
I believe some of krashnik's suggestions can benefit a lot of people, not just himself. I'm open to hear more ideas :) let's not shut down somebody just because he has radical ideas (change is good).

krashnik

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2013, 10:02:23 PM »
Yes, I am a businessman who enjoys helping charities & philanthropic efforts.  ML has a great cause & great people behind it, yet still a weak foundation for the business that it is.  It is quite common for such a company to get $500k funded literally overnight when the right business structure is setup to it.  I haven't seen other contributors here who are programmers in the Silicon Valley area.  Maybe that is why everyone thinks it has to be garage style to still be "for the people."

If you look at other large & successful open-source projects, they handle their work slightly differently. Think wordpress, eclipse, kaltura, android, chrome OS, etc. These are all open-source yet still bring in funds to help their beloved programmers & their vast communities grow.

Here are my suggestions:

#1: magiclantern.com - not .fm - this will be the for-profit side of the business where people can hire programmers to help them install magic lantern in all of their corporation's cameras, etc. 
have magiclantern.org - which is the developmental side of ML and accepts non-profit donations to further educate people how to use the software & continues to contribute code
 (this setup is exactly how kaltura.com works, wordpress.com, etc - many large open-source programs)

#2: Get a board of directors & rectify a nonprofit.   anyone on the board will not be allowed to accept any money - they simply oversee decisions & stand behind the mission of the nonprofit.  elect a board who has ML's best interest in mind who have diverse talents such as programmers, filmmakers, marketers, and businessman.

#3: Do outreach with ML and partner with Canon.  Once ML becomes a 501c3 nonprofit, Canon can make tax-deductible donations to the ML crew.  Also, I'm sure Canon would be happy to hire programmers from the ML crew & can create a happy cohesive environment between ML + Canon.  ML can be a training-ground where anyone can learn Canon firmware & if they really excel, they get picked up by the R&D department of Canon.  With $500k funding, non profit status, and a board of directors that sets this structure up better - Canon will happily start doing business with & welcoming the ML community a lot more.

#4: Write in your mission statement that the purpose is to explore what cameras can do for 100% free & share that knowledge with the world. 

Never mistaken someone like me who gives sound business advice as trying to "take money".  You're welcome to see my business & ventures to realize most of what I do is philanthropic & has the heart behind the grassroots community in what I already do.  I'm merely suggesting ideas and hope to see the ML community latch on to them and make them part of the whole.  Simply a seed planter :)

nanomad

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2013, 10:35:37 PM »
Ok, answer this:
What would Canon's reaction be if we turn this into a semi-commercial venture?

Did you ask your lawyers if it is legal to do given the fact that we are reverse-engineering stuff?

Now, find a couple of non-conflicting straight anwsers to that (even in PM if you so desire) and we can go further with the discussion.
EOS 1100D | EOS 650 (No, I didn't forget the D) | Ye Olde Canon EF Lenses ('87): 50 f/1.8 - 28 f/2.8 - 70-210 f/4 | EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 | Metz 36 AF-5

krashnik

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2013, 10:39:14 PM »
I'd rather we all work on a team on this.  I'm a community member just  like you & helping out ML.  I'll talk with my lawyers and see if they have any similar scenarios.  Maybe someone else on here can find something or knows of a company that does something similar?  Let's see what we can find.  I totally understand that concern.

nanomad

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 10:42:17 PM »
We got the SFLC opinion on the matter already :)
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0xAF

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 10:42:45 PM »
(expressing my opinion only, as usual, this may or may not cover with opinions of other ML members)

First I should say, krashnik has some points about licensing IMO. But that's all of it.
Everything else sounds like an attempt to commercialize the project.
And some of us remember the last talk about this.

I didn't look through the code thoroughly ...
They have done a great job up until this point, though it is still an amateur piece of code with inadequate licensing and maintenance to really hold standard in a larger marketplace.

So you haven't done your homework to check the source, but still consider it as an amateur piece of code ? Inadequate maintenance ? Marketplace ?
First you should checkout the code, if you're developer, then we would be interested in hearing your opinion. If you are not, then probably you're not the one to give such definitions.
I'm not saying that the code cannot be better than this (different devs, different approaches). But you're telling me that the salt is sweet, only because you do not know what salt is.

If we treat it similar to the Android system, we could theoretically have a platform for future chipsets to run only on MagicLantern Firmware.  This would allow a complete different open-source camera system to adopt ML into it's hardware for a truly 100% open-source platform.  This can't happen on the random hours the current coders are putting into this software.
Why do you compare Android - an Open Source project, based on other Open Source projects (Driven by a huge corporation and advertised) with ML - Open Source project based on proprietary work, which is undocumented and reverse engeneered. A totally hostile environment for new devs, unless they have the courage to stick for it long enough. To me this is not real comparation.
To make ML work on a different hardware (other than Canon's) would not be possible ATM, since it's all based on their hardware and their OS and APIs. Not sure ML will ever be something else, but who knows.


Whether we like it or not, writing code takes money.
I totaly disagree with this. Whenever I can, I help other open source projects. This costs nothing to them, neither to their users.
To me it's like a hobby or more like an religion, but that's me.
All the devs here are not doing it for money, neither users pay for it.
The code might cost in business, yes, but this is something diffrent and you should have realized it so far, since you said you worked with open source projects.
Most open source projects are driven by ppl wanting to give to others, not to take from them. Even these that sells support after that. Enterprise linux distributions, OpenERP, Kolab, Proxmox, etc... All they give, not take. If you are not able to go by yourself, then you can pay for support, but you're not forced to.

Dedicated Servers to host ML website: $2,000/year
Redesign responsive website: $4,000
How-To Tutorials for beginners: $10,000
Funding for 5 programmers to treat this as part-time job: $50,000 = $10k/year per programmer. 
Distribute the $50k to the top 5 programmers who work on this code which will allow them to buy cameras and completely take them apart, completely obliterate CF/SSD controllers, etc.
I'm not sure how much costs ML's Dedicated per year, but the other prices seems a bit high to me ?!?
I'm living and working in Bulgaria. In my "free" time, I work my ass for extra.
If I could ask $4k for redesign, I would work 2 hours a day in total.
I'm not saying this is unreasonable price whereever you live, but believe me, there are much cheaper experts around the world.
Documentation and tutoruals are written by ppl wanting to share their free time, just like the devs. As it was mentioned in some post above, this makes these ppl feel themselves significant, because they are significant!
Paying someone $10k will do some good documents for few months, then you will have outdated documents for years (because the volunteers are not around anymore), unless you keep spending $10k for documentation.
This is more than acceptable in every business mode, since there are no volunteers there, but here it's different.

The most harmful thing for this project is to start paying to any dev !
This was discussed already. Once you give someone money to work on this project, all the other devs will leave you. No new devs will be available, since it's hard to enter this environment. The project will slowly (or not so slowly) die!


We need to step away from the mindset that ML is a garage/basement project and realize that it is currently ranked at 59,000 on Alexa, has global coverage with top magazines and reviewers, and is being used by filmmakers worldwide in commercial productions.
 
We're essentially sitting on a multi-million nonprofit educational open-source platform that just needs the right management to standardize how it works. 
The project is that BIG only because it is not commercial ! Once you make it commercial it will be ruined.




Yes, I am a businessman who enjoys helping charities & philanthropic efforts.
To me you look more like a businessman, who seeks oppotunities. Nothing wrong in that, but this project should not be comercialized IMO !


I haven't seen other contributors here who are programmers in the Silicon Valley area.  Maybe that is why everyone thinks it has to be garage style to still be "for the people."
I'm not sure I'm getting this right, but this sounds offending to me.
If you're looking for programmers which you can enslave and squeeze for few years, perhaps you should really go to Sillicon Valley. We already know few "good" companies comming from there, should I point them ?



If you look at other large & successful open-source projects, they handle their work slightly differently. Think wordpress, eclipse, kaltura, android, chrome OS, etc. These are all open-source yet still bring in funds to help their beloved programmers & their vast communities grow.
I already mentioned few open source projects above, as I mentioned that ML is quite different from other OS projects and if you want to compare it with other projects, you should find some worthy for that.



#1: magiclantern.com - not .fm - this will be the for-profit side of the business where people can hire programmers to help them install magic lantern in all of their corporation's cameras, etc. 
Hire programmers ?? Go to freelancer.com.
Profit ? I do not need troubles with Canon. Count me out of this as soon as you start taking profit of this.


#2: Get a board of directors & rectify a nonprofit.   anyone on the board will not be allowed to accept any money - they simply oversee decisions & stand behind the mission of the nonprofit.  elect a board who has ML's best interest in mind who have diverse talents such as programmers, filmmakers, marketers, and businessman.
And loose all the devs and kill the project.
ML is not business, neither a profession. It's a hobby and education project.
We learn by ML, then we monetize our knowledge in business.



#3: Do outreach with ML and partner with Canon.  Once ML becomes a 501c3 nonprofit, Canon can make tax-deductible donations to the ML crew.
Also, I'm sure Canon would be happy to hire programmers from the ML crew & can create a happy cohesive environment between ML + Canon.  ML can be a training-ground where anyone can learn Canon firmware & if they really excel, they get picked up by the R&D department of Canon.  With $500k funding, non profit status, and a board of directors that sets this structure up better - Canon will happily start doing business with & welcoming the ML community a lot more.
I see another ending of this movie, we all know what it is. There is no reason for Canon to cooperate with us, is there ?




Before I finish the post, here is a quote from hirethestache, which express my opinion in short, which I couldn't say better.
Or dont change what isnt broken. Please quit trying to monetize ML. As soon as you bring money into the game, you introduce power struggles and inequality.

Tutorials are already being made on a daily basis from the users, for free.
The website is already perfectly (albeit slightly clunky) functional.
The general public feels like it is a part of something big, because it is free and completely open-source.



One more thing you should consider before your reply. I'm not a businessman (at least not like you). My point of view is different and it does not include ML as business.
// AF

albert-e

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2013, 10:45:32 PM »
"I haven't seen other contributors here who are programmers in the Silicon Valley area."

Be careful,Mr.Krashnik

Andy600

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2013, 11:07:53 PM »
"I haven't seen other contributors here who are programmers in the Silicon Valley area."

Be careful,Mr.Krashnik

Well said!

and THAT is exactly why Magic Lantern and the developers who put so much time and work into it are DIFFERENT!

This is a very strong community and functions extremely well without going corporate. Canon are already free to approach devs and offer them jobs. Maybe they already have?

I'm not a dev but if I was I would be quite offended by some of your comments Mr. Krashnik.
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nanomad

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Re: Kickstarter Campaign
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2013, 11:13:38 PM »
I haven't seen other contributors here who are programmers in the Silicon Valley area.  Maybe that is why everyone thinks it has to be garage style to still be "for the people."

Since it's an hot topic :P

And you can thank God for that. We don't need silly Library of Congress exemptions to do the work we do right now. You don't see many US-based devs because almost everyone of us is from Europe.
EOS 1100D | EOS 650 (No, I didn't forget the D) | Ye Olde Canon EF Lenses ('87): 50 f/1.8 - 28 f/2.8 - 70-210 f/4 | EF-S 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 | Metz 36 AF-5